Gents, i have used the 480 grain Woodliegh with a short cut canular made specifically for the 458WM. 74gns 2206H out of 24 inch barrel chrono at 2200fps. Worked fine on ele.
BUT each of the rounds were loded with some compression, infact the base of the bullets recovered have the granular pattern in the lead. This was the load / rifle that i had so i used it.
Given the opportunity i would take the Lott over the WM simply to avoid the compression hassle and to open up a bit more versitility. That .458 is a good killer to be sure!
Stu

quote:

Originally posted by stuey:
Gents, i have used the 480 grain Woodliegh with a short cut canular made specifically for the 458WM. 74gns 2206H out of 24 inch barrel chrono at 2200fps. Worked fine on ele.
BUT each of the rounds were loded with some compression, infact the base of the bullets recovered have the granular pattern in the lead. This was the load / rifle that i had so i used it.
Given the opportunity i would take the Lott over the WM simply to avoid the compression hassle and to open up a bit more versitility. That .458 is a good killer to be sure!
Stu

The Lott is what the Win Mag should have been, Winchester screwed up. I think they were more interested in promoting the .264 and .338 which are both fantastic and the .458 made sense to marketing guys who thought they could offer a trifecta of new short mag cartridges. The Lott has now basically buried the .458 Win Mag and rightfully so.

No doubt the Lott has more velocity. But the 458 Winchester has never let me down. Granted, with heavy bullets the Lott gets the necessary velocity with many more powders. If you load the Win Mag with Accurate 2230 it gets the necessary velocity without over compression and is a very stable load.
Perhaps Winchester "should" have just standardized the 450 Watts. That's history now.
Every big company like Winchester, Remington, Norma, Ruger ect has dropped the ball with rounds they " should " have brought out.

When the 458 win. was brought out in the 1950s, there were few magnum length actions available to the public. The Win mod-70 was one. I suspect that they used the short case so that their ammo could be used in more actions that were available at the time. Most available actions could handle the 2 1/2" case of the 458 but fewer the longer 375 H&H case. I also believe that the Win made more money from their ammo sales than from rifle sales and they wanted to maximize their 458 Win ammo sales.

465H&H

A Lott can do everything the WM does, at lower pressures. Plus, it can do more than the WM can do, period. Plus again, it can shoot WM ammo. So, in this regard, there is absolutely no reason for getting a WM instead of a Lott, it seems to be a no-brainer.

At 2150 with a good bullet, you have all the gun you'll ever need to hunt anything on the planet, be it as a hunter, or as someone who needs to back-up others.

At this reasonable but effective speed, you can have a 9 lbs rifle that is perfectly manageable recoil-wise, provided stock configuration and balance are good. That's a rifle that you can carry all day long, and can shoot enough to get proficient with it.

No fleas on this dog, I'd say!

quote:

Originally posted by Philip A.:
A Lott can do everything the WM does, at lower pressures. Plus, it can do more than the WM can do, period. Plus again, it can shoot WM ammo. So, in this regard, there is absolutely no reason for getting a WM instead of a Lott, it seems to be a no-brainer.

At 2150 with a good bullet, you have all the gun you'll ever need to hunt anything on the planet, be it as a hunter, or as someone who needs to back-up others.

At this reasonable but effective speed, you can have a 9 lbs rifle that is perfectly manageable recoil-wise, provided stock configuration and balance are good. That's a rifle that you can carry all day long, and can shoot enough to get proficient with it.

No fleas on this dog, I'd say!

Philip,

I do agree that the Lott is a great caliber and one that I have used with excellent results on buff and elephants. I also have Browning safari Grade in 458 Win that I have used on elephant also. The Browning only weighs 7 lbs. 12 ozs. That had me worried until I shot it and much to my surprise it is more comfortable to shoot than either of my doubles that weigh over 10 lbs. Excellent stock design! Also it will launch 500 grain bullets at 2,150 fps with what appears to be medium pressure levels. In addition, it uses the regular length action rather than the magnum length action needed for the Lott. The shorter bolt through is nice to have. The one place that the Win lets me down is in using 550 grain Woodleigh bullets. They take up too much powder space to get decent velocity with that bullet.

465H&H

We have so much scientific evidence now, that
.510 and .500 inch diameter bullets puncture
so deeply into elephant skulls at 510 grains
and 500 grains, when they are made with flat
tips and they are high quality monolithics
with driving bands. Why would you want a 550
grain .458 caliber round nose bullet

465H&H, a good .458 with good loads will do everything you want. Also, as you rightly pointed out, stock design is paramount in recoil handling and allows a lighter rifle to be absolutely manageable.

What I meant is that if one is faced with the choice between a .458WM and a Lott, there is no reason to choose the WM, especially considering that many factory .458WM are using long actions anyway. If one was buying a CZ550 for example, what would be the point of taking the .458WM instead of the Lott? That's exactly the same rifle with a different chamber...

Philip,

I agree that if your going to chose a long actioned rifle, it makes sense to select the Lott. But, if light weight and a short bolt throw is important to you then the Win is the obvious choise and you will lose little by selecting it. I haven't cared for the CZ as I find the barrel at 25" too long and it is heavier than need be.

DR Hunter,

The question posed by the poster was selecting between the 458 Win and Lott versions. He had already made up his mind on one of those two calibers. Not what another caliber can do.

I don't have any experience with .500 or .510 caliber rifles on DG but I have quite a bit with .458 to .475 caliber rifles shooting 480 to 500 grain bullets at 2,150 fps velocity. That includes most of the FN mono-metal solids as well as Hornady RN and FN solids, and Woodleigh RN and Hydro solids as well as Woodleigh 550 grain RN solids and softs on elephant and buff. I can assure you that a .458 diameter 550 grain Woodleigh RN solid will out penetrate any 500 grain RN or FN solid in the above ballistic range. In fact it has so much penetration that I stopped using them due to over penetration.

465H&H

465H&H, I do agree with the CZ barrel being long. That's why I got mine chopped down to 20"... And at 8.5# empty, I'm sure you'd find it a handy little gun.

Here is a photo of the 458 Lott I just finished. Its my first and last I will build. Started life as a Winchester Model 70 300 Win Mag. The gun just about drove me nutts trying to get it to feed properly. I had to make a completely new magazine follower which was backwards from normal, first round out on left side instead of right. Had to cut a big part of mag box out so cartridges would retain in mag. Had to lengthen the ejection port on both front and rear. Had to modify the ejector. This gun will feed flat nosed bullets just fine. I set it up to shoot 450 gr CEB BBW#13 solids and Raptors. This gun has a 22 inch barrel and fixed peep sight. Has a Bell & Carlson Medalist stock and it weighs 7 lbs.

Sam, nice build! Looks like a very functional and effective hunting arm.

Sam sorry to hear about your feeding troubles...
On the flip side I purchased a new Win mod 70 in 458 win mag, re-chambered it to 458 Lott shortened the bolt stop and the ejector, took the spacer out of the magazine and the gun has run and fed flawlessly.
Just got back from a Oz Buff Cull hunt with Gunsmoke Adventures put about 160 rounds of reloads through it could not have been happier.

My god just when did a .458 Lott at 2150 become a BIG Kicker? Huh! In any 10lb rifle with a scope with 4" eye relief and a good recoil pad, it's No Big Deal.Heck for ELE you don't even need a scope. Open sights are more than adequate at typical ELE range and no posdibility of a scope cut! I've had. 90lb women shoot them with no issues. My CZ 589 double in .458lott weighs 8.5lbs and has been shot by quite a few members on this site with little drama except their continued attempts to buy it from me. My loads go 2250fps w500grs or more. Get someone who knows what they are doing to show you how to shoot it and with proper form you'll be fine. -Rob

Exactly.

At his request, and after some instruction, I gave my .458 Lott to a junior rifle team small bore shooter at the range one day.

He had no high power experience. But he knew how to put bullet holes in the black.

I had to teach him how to square up at 45 degrees or so to the target, get a tight hold, with both hands, deep in the palms and with all of the fingers and both thumbs gripping the rifle and pulling it back hard into the shoulder pocket, while leaning just a bit forward, toward the target.

His first three shots, off hand, at fifty yards, were touching.

No issues with recoil.

In fact, he next wanted to shoot my .500 A-Square!

I get weary of being told in post after post that I can get used to recoil. I have been shooting for well over 60 years and have never gotten used to any appreciable amount of recoil. It just plain hurts,period. I suppose one could brainwash oneself into believing the recoil didn't ACTUALLY hurt but I am not one of those people. I shoot a well fitted 375H&H fairly well without undue pain but anything larger and even some smaller really hurt to fire. I think it probably has something to do with the Impulse curve over time as I have never fired a 300Win Mag that was pleasant to shoot.I have owned and used heavy rifles up to a 470NE double and currently own a 416Rigby and 2 458 Win Mags. I rarely shoot them as they are definitely not a pleasant experience. As I said I just get weary of being told 'it's all in my mind'.

Zim, the worst rifle I ever had in terms of recoil was a belgian double in 9.3x74. A vicious rap that was hurting my shoulder and kicking me in the teeth. Sold it as fast as I could.

I never liked any 300WM too, and had a 7 Rem Mag that was unpleasant to shoot. A fast slap.

My 450/400 on the other hand is pleasant to shoot: good stock design, and it's a big push instead of a fast kick. As you say, the way one can handle recoil has a lot to do with the peak impulse and the time over which it is distributed.

You're right, it's not in your head. In your teeth, rather...

quote:

My god just when did a .458 Lott at 2150 become a BIG Kicker? Huh! In any 10lb rifle with a scope with 4" eye relief and a good recoil pad, it's No Big Deal.

Just my opinion, but stock fit makes a big difference in felt recoil. My CZ 550 in .458 Lott kicks the crap out of my face. It's painful to shoot and I don't enjoy it.

My Ruger No. 1 in .450-400 doesn't bother me a bit.

Maybe it's the difference in the powder or the burn rate or the fact that I'm shooting a 400 grain bullet from one and a 500 grain bullet from the other, but whatever it is, I'm happy shooting my .450-400 and unhappy shooting my .458 Lott. Since both will kill a buffalo (or pretty much anything else) just as dead, I'll shoot the .450-400.

Just reading through several.threads on big bores and recoil. It appears obvious that the rifles Don't Fit the shooters most of the time. At least until rifles get into the ultra large category. Over 80 ft lbs of recoil . That is plenty of recoil for most shooters. If the cheek of the stock is smacking a shooter in the chops. There are several things that can fix that. A wood rasp and belt sander are good places to start. Reducing bullet weight helps also.

quote:

Originally posted by BuffNut:

quote:

My god just when did a .458 Lott at 2150 become a BIG Kicker? Huh! In any 10lb rifle with a scope with 4" eye relief and a good recoil pad, it's No Big Deal.

Just my opinion, but stock fit makes a big difference in felt recoil. My CZ 550 in .458 Lott kicks the crap out of my face. It's painful to shoot and I don't enjoy it.

My Ruger No. 1 in .450-400 doesn't bother me a bit.

Maybe it's the difference in the powder or the burn rate or the fact that I'm shooting a 400 grain bullet from one and a 500 grain bullet from the other, but whatever it is, I'm happy shooting my .450-400 and unhappy shooting my .458 Lott. Since both will kill a buffalo (or pretty much anything else) just as dead, I'll shoot the .450-400.

When working up loads for my 458wm I noticed that powders with different burn rates recoil differently. It seems the faster powders produce a sharper, less pleasant recoil than the slower powders.

On the Lott vs. 458wm issue, there is no reason to go with a Lott rather than a 458wm since the 458wm does all that is required and more with a .458" bullet.

Rather than load a .458" bullet faster than the 458wm will take it (and so increase recoil,) it would make more sense to move up in bore size and bullet weight. Say a .500" or so 570 grainer or the mono equivalent at 2150 or so.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by SquirrelNut:
I have a CZ550 in .458 Lott. I like the rifle a lot (pun not intended) and to me the large footprint of the butt of the stock and generally beefy nature of the stock handles recoil very well. I have friends who had never shot anything bigger than a 30-06 who after a few minutes of instruction on proper technique have been able to shoot it accurately and without flinching so I think the recoil of a Lott is definetely manageable for most people. I think the Lott is really a fantastic cartridge. I generally shoot 500gr Woodleighs at about 2,300 and have shot the 550s some and the 550s recoil noticeably more. I also really like the fact that it holds 5 down.

My CZ Lott is almost unshootable.My nose swells to twice its size when I shoot it.

Hey Shootaway, do have any pics of that, I would surely like to see that!?
I have no problem with any of my big bores, I have 375 Weatherby, 416 Rigby, 458 Lott and 505 Gibbs. Soon to have a 404 Jeffrey. They are all manageable from field positions (off hand) or from sticks. The problem I have with them, except the 375, is shooting from the bench, I just cannot get into a position where I can 'roll' with the recoil. I am not ashamed to admit that I use a sorbathane pad to reduce felt recoil when shooting from the bench, it works very well, and I can go home without feeling sore or with a headache. Why punish yourself when there's no need to?

Cheers.

One must be a good student of big bore rifle shooting, as with every other subject, in order to learn and master the key factors and tasks, and succeed at the endeavor.

Proper rifle build, and proper fit of the rifle, and proper form with the rifle in hand, are the key factors and tasks in big bore rifle shooting.

I'm not a good teacher, but I've always been a pretty good student, and so I have learned enough that even I can teach his subject.

Your rifle must be properly built and must fit you, and you must hold it correctly, in order to get it done right.