A PH in Africa recommended that the next step up from my .375 be a .458 lott. I expressed concern about the recoil, and he immediately said "load it to 2150 fps and it will take care of anything that walks without beating you up".

I think 2150 with 500gr is basically 458 win ballistics, but he likes the lott for its versatility and ability to get that performance easier than the win mag.

Have others taken this approach with the lott?

Does it reduce recoil significantly?

I'd like to get a lott and use it this way, just interested in others opinions....thanks

I'd go the Lott over the Win Mag. You can always load it up once you get used to the recoil if you want but with the Win Mag you are stuck at about 2100-2150 with a 500gr. Lott 2400fps.

The advantage with the Win Mag is you can get it in a shorter action and lighter rifle.

Of course the 458 Lott will have more recoil than a 375 H&H Magnum and by quite a bit. It's something you can get used to though. My questions:

1. Why get some super duper magnum when all you're going to do if just load it down? Why not just stick with the 375 H&H Magnum?

2. Does it really matter if a 458 Win. Mag. can be had in a marginally shorter and marginally lighter gun than a 458 Lott? Do you want a lighter 458 Win. Mag? Really?

If you're worried about recoil with the 458 Lott, then get one with a brake.

While I have never shot a .416 Rem, from everything I have read it splits the difference between the .375 H&H and the .458 Lott. I have both a .375 H&H and a .458 Lott and while my Lott weighs a little less than the .375 H&H, it still recoils WAY more than my .375 H&H. It isn't that big of a deal though, as I am used to shooting heavy mag shotgun slugs from a bolt action shotgun. Still more recoil than that too, but no big deal... My suggestion is to take a look at the .416 Rem, and a .458 Lott and go from there...

-John

I have shot a 416 Remington Magnum and consider its recoil similar to a 375 H&H Magnum.

The step up from a .375 H&H to even a .416 Rem can be a big step for some, so the step directly to the .458 Lott is definitely a big one. If you have a chance to shoot one before buying one, I'd try that first and see if the recoil level is something that you can accustom yourself to before spending the money. I've used the .416 Rem with very good results, I've also used the .458 Lott with very good results as well but will tell you, getting comfortable with the increased recoil of the Lott took it's toll for awhile.
I used the Lott in Zimbabwe this year with excellent results but followed Michael458's advice on the CEB's. I used the 450 gr solids paired with the 420 gr NonCons. The 420 gr NonCon did an outstanding job on the buffalo I shot with it and the recoil level with lighter bullets is definitely easier on the shoulder. There are options for you to explore.

I wondered about the Lott recoil question for a long time and then got one with the thoughts that I am not a recoil sensitive guy anyway. I am glad that I did. Got one from AHR and the stock configuration is great and really controls recoil. I find it easier on me than my 450 NE and I load a 480 gr. CEB to 2275 fps. Rocks em & stops em every time. I should also mention that the gun is 9.25 LBS naked and a pleasure to carry.

I've recently stepped up to a Lott for an upcoming elephant hunt this fall. I'm only shooting it off the sticks and offhand so far. The first practice session consisted of 4 shots. That was enough. Felt as dingy as a wooden watch for a couple of hours. The next session (says something for my intellect) was not nearly as bad. The next, even better. At this point, as I've learned to roll with it, I am enjoying shooting it. Not much worse than my 375.

I was looking at a .416 and thought that was my next step up, consensus with the people I was speaking with in Africa was that .416/.404 are just not that much of jump from the .375. They were recommending the lott because I already had a .375.

I like the idea of being able to load it down a bit and have win mag performance (or I could just shoot win mag in it for a while) and I know, like the 375, ammo will be easy to get.

I was thinking about AHR or trying to get a custom model 70 second hand - have seen myself how much stock fit impacts recoil. Was thinking weight should be around 9.5/10.

Thanks for the perspective - any thing else I should be considering about a Lott?

Yes. Ammo availability in Africa. If your ammo is lost. You can always find 458 Win and or Lott there as it is a very popular DG cartridge and becoming more so as time goes by.

.375/.416/.458 WM or Lott. I have all of them. Recoil is dependent on weight and how well your rifle fits you.

The only one that has cut me is the .375. It's too short. I don't like to shoot it as a consequence.

My .416 is a Rem. It's too heavy for calibre, but it's a pussycat and my go to rifle for everything. Duikers to elephant, whitetail to turkey stateside, it works.

My .458's are a bit more serious from a recoil standpoint. Full bore rounds with the Lott are a beast. It hasn't made the trip to Africa yet, but it's hell on javalena.

Frankly, the .416 is all you need.

Your PHs advice makes sense to me, and with the typical African lack of powder selection would make even more sense to him. I use the .458 Win, loaded right up there (mostly)with A2230 and 450s. The problem isn't so much a problem with performance as a struggle to get all the powder into the case in the first place. Some of my loads want to push the bullets back out of the cases. The reamer, mag box and follower are ready and waiting for the conversion after my August hunt. Even if it is just for the sake of convenience it'll be worth it. I frequently use Norma .300 Win Mag brass blown out and trimmed back in my .458 Win. A Lott chamber would let me use those cases without trimming. That would split the difference between the Lott and Win Mag and let me use some quality brass. The Win brass is very thin and fragile, the Norma crimps down like pit-bull and lasts forever.

I went from the .375 to the .416 Rigby before landing at the .458. I never could see what the Rigby did better than the .375 in exchange for double the recoil. It just gathers dust now, and the .375s and .458 go hunting. At least with the .458 I can see what the recoil gets me.

Jack Lott's original intention was to get the advertised .458 velocity without compaction.

I have used the 458 Lott and the 505 Gibbs. They both have considerable recoil. Some guys are filled with testosterone and love them, others are filled with BS and they love them also.

I settled on the 404 Jeffery's and the 416 Rem. long ago and I have no complaints on either caliber, as they have performed to perfection for me for all these many years. My all time favorite double rifle caliber is and always will be the 450-400 in 3" or 3.25"...

I can shoot the 40 calibers well, and they kill well on everything. I see no need for more gun or more recoil. Shooting the really big bores has left me with bursitis in my neck and shoulders, and my hearing is shot. If I had it to do over, well I wouldn't change a thing!

I went from .375 to .450/400 (first in a Ruger No. 1, then a Merkel double) to .458 Lott.

I don't mind admitting that the Lott is currently too much for me. I shoot the .375 with no problem at all. With a recoil pad I shoot it from the sticks all day long. Well, maybe 40 or 60 rounds in a single session.

The .450/400 doesn't bother me. I can pretty much shoot that rifle off the sticks (with my pad on) at the range almost as much as my .375.

But the Lott is painful for me, even with moderate loads (and I do handload mild loads for it). Especially on my cheek and face, which take more beating than my shoulder - maybe a stock that fit me better would reduce that. Bottom line is, I just don't like shooting it. Consequently, I don't shoot it as much as I should to be as familiar with it as I should be.

I love the cartridge on paper. But everyone has their own personal limits, and at least for the moment the Lott is past mine.

I like shooting the double better anyway. . . .

I put my thoughts under "375 H&H and .458 Lott, my experience" in the Africa Big Game Hunting section. Load development and sight in are no fun with a Lott, but doable. Off the sticks at game, it became my go to rifle. I loaded 500 grain A-Frames to 2,200 ft and the Ruger RSM, scoped weighed 11 lbs. Wouldn't hesitate to do it again, but would loose a half pound.
I also like a mod 70 classic in .416 Rem, good weight and a stock that fits me well. Love the round.

10gen,

Look at Michael458's research in the top thread.
There is NO CALL FOR a .458 cal to use a 500
grain bullet with the technological advances of
bullet makers like CEB, NF and GS Custom. They
are shooting .500 caliber bullets that weigh 510
grain and less at ELEPHANT and killing them Clean-
er Than Clean. It looks like right around .280 sec-
tional density will cover you in every case. So a
.458 can be as light as 410 grains, and Michael
himself told me 2200 FPS MV is more than enough
velocity with these new bullets to be completely
confident in them.

Thanks guys - appreciate the feedback very much.

I think I need to get a basic CZ in 458 Lott and see how it feels to me.

Ray is right. The .40's work for everthing and you can handle them.

I shot the Lott and it wasted me.I don`t shoot it anymore and will only shoot it to get ready for a hunt and while hunting.I have been in the rink too many times with the Lott.It is a fine chambering-reasonably accurate and powerful enough for the biggest.Hunting in places like the Zambezi valley I want a Lott or a 500NE.I shoot 550gr bullets now only with the Lott.I have a Lott,why should I shoot lighter bullets?

A 458LOTT with a reduced load to shoot a 480/ 500grn bullet at around 2150fps is pretty much a belted version on the 450NE. THIS IS NOT A BAD THING.
I use a 458Win set with 480grn bullets at 2150fps.

My CZ 550 in 458 Lott with the factory 500 gr Hornady load @2300 fps chronographed had substantial recoil And the rifle torqued alot.
It was about twice the perceived recoil of the 400 gr load at around 2600 fps. The 500 gr bullet at 2150 fps still recoils quite a bit but doesn't torque too bad and the recoil is alot easier. . My 8.4 lb 458 Win Mag with the 500 gr bullet and the brake taken off kicks pretty hard but with the brake on its not too bad.

My thots are. To fit your rifle to yourself. I took some wood off the stock for my thumb muscel and took the cheek down until the express sights lined up perfectly. I also shortened the lop some. Those mods made a tremendous difference in the rifle being easily hit able. But the full house 500 gr load still had alot of recoil.
The 350 gr bullets @2700 fps were easy to shoot from the bench. The 500 were absolutely NOT!!!!! And a 350 gr TSX @2700 fps is an amazing killer.
My rifle weighed around 9 lbs without scope.

10th: There is a nice AHR Lott for sale under used rifles at Hendershot's Sporting Goods. A good deal at $4500 if the stock fits you. It already has a muzzle brake!

quote:

.
The 350 gr bullets @2700 fps were easy to shoot from the bench. The 500 were absolutely NOT!!!!! And a 350 gr TSX @2700 fps is an amazing killer.

Can I ask what you've killed with the 350 grain TSX? I've got them going at 2650 fps out of a .458 Win, and am interested in using them as a light recoiling .458 load or an alternative to the .375 to look at it another way. It just seems to me that a 350 grain TSX going as fast as my typical 270 grain loads in the .375 just about have to be good for something. I'm going to use some on cull water-buffalo in August.

At 2550 out of my Win Mag they crumple up brown bear like wow. They penetrate, expand and keep penetrating. I haven't ever recovered one. But I have had over 5 ' of penetration from them. . . Perhaps the pacaderms need more penetration but nothing that I hunt does. . If I ever get drawn for a bison hunt it is the bullet I will use. Some of them weigh over a ton I've also shot little Sitka Blacktails at over 250 yards with the same load. They make a bigger hole in a brown bear than they do a deer but they still start to expand.

Thanks. I'll crack a few buffalo with them, and see how they stack up with A-Frames, Partitions and 420 gr CEBs. I did communicate with a tech at Barnes who seemed enthused by the idea, but stopped short of saying that it was a common thing. If they work well on lighter game, it allows the .458s to crowd into .375 territory.

Hi to all.
Having a buffalo hunt in september I start looking what to hunt with.
I have a cz 458 lott and a Dumolin 416 rem
the two of them in 9,5-10 pounds weight with optic.
I shot a lot in the last months and this is what I found.
I like more and quick less the 416 Rem with 400 gr at 2400 fps ,also I hunt a water buffalo with it and it goes down like a piano.
New reglamentations in my country impede take it to the hunt so I return to the 458 lott and try new more easy loads.
First I bought some boxes of Norma African PH ammunition , in the box they say that is a 500 gr woodleigh bullet at 2100 fps.
I was reloading my ammo at 2150 gr with 500 gr bullets.
When I chronograph them ( the Norma) it was 2040 fps ( I think is due to the winter temperature in Argentina), really easy on my shoulder so I load my ammo to that velocity.
Now What do you think about the killing ability of this load, thinking that in hot temperature it will go to 2100 fps .
In my solid load I will use Sledgehammers 500 gr at 2040 fps loaded with Reloader 15.
Thanks to all
gtrotz

For a long time most of the 458 Win Mag factory ammo available was chronographing between 1900 fps-2100 fps. And by and large it worked. . Mike Lagrange stated that the 458 needed 2100 fps at the muzzle to be 100% reliable for any angle brain shot on large elephant. That was with the steel jacketed Hornady 500 gr hunting solids.
I was pretty disgusted with a few boxes of 458 Win Mag Remington Premium Safari ammo loaded with the 450 gr Swift A Frame. They chronographed around 1950 fps from both my 458 Win Mag with its 20" barrel and my factory CZ 458 Lott with its 25" oal barrel.
It should be going 2200 fps or more. Oh well its a good deer load that will still pretty well up end a brown bear.

quote:

I was pretty disgusted with a few boxes of 458 Win Mag Remington Premium Safari ammo loaded with the 450 gr Swift A Frame. They chronographed around 1950 fps from both my 458 Win Mag with its 20" barrel and my factory CZ 458 Lott with its 25" oal barrel.

I'd have been disgusted too. I got some Federal TBBC like that, but at the time I was happy just to find something for brass.

My 24" barrelled Winchester does 2200+ fps with 450 A-Frames and H4895, and 2350 fps with A2230.

Man that's Smokin with a 450 . I have never found out how fast I could push the 450 s as those and some TSX are the only 450 s that I have I did work up a 2400 fps load in the Lott with the 450 TSX but haven't killed anything with them.
I'm going over and over in my head to turn my Win Mag which is built on a stainless Ruger action with a Ss Shilen barrel. Into a switch barrel 458 Lott and 338/375 Ruger. I have bout 1/4-3/8" of eroded throat in the 458 barrel so it needs to be re chambered. If I have a smith cut about 1/8" off the shank and run a Lott reamer in there and time it so the under barrel recoil lug lines up on bottom. Index it and the 338 barrel. Put the long mag box on. Move the bolt stop back. I think I'de be in tall cotton. Actually I'de prefer the 450 Watts. That way I never have to trim brass... :-). Plus, the Watts is a Baranof Island brown bear round. Ben Forbes and Glen Morgan used that round with awesome results. Not that I ever found the 458 Win lacking. But. I would have a whole bunch of carts stamped on the barrel. 450 Watts, 458 Lott, 450/300 Win Mag, 458 Win Mag, 458 American.

. If you have a 375 HandH and a 458 Lott, brass is easy to come by. I went a little overboard one time loading some 270 gr Hornady spitzers for my HandH. They were too hot. So, I hing onto them. In a couple years I needed some Lott brass. . So on a whim I shot one of those 375 s in the Lott. . Fireformed beautifully :-) .
So, I did some blasting and got a bunch of brass. I shot a few in my 416 Rem too. Worked great. . Kinda hillbilly I know but it worked great.

isn't that bad for the barrel to have a way undersized bullet banging back and forth down the lands? plus i would worry about the high pressure gasses blowing by the bullet causing cutting to the lands.

My CZ at 9.8 lbs was a beast at 2300 fps and still pretty heavy recoil at 2150 fps. now that it's 11 lbs, it is comfortable to shoot

The Lott is a pain to get to feed properly with any bullet. I'm building one now and it will be the last Lott I ever work on. Good cartridge though.

10generation,

There is no need for a Lott if your next hunt is going to be for a buffalo. The Lott will be heavy, rattle your teeth in recoil and is notorious for destroying scopes. I always recommend a 375 or 416. They are both quite versatile and can take duikers to elephants.
Having said all that if the lore of the nearly half inch bore is irresistible find one to shoot some before you plank down a bunch of money. If at that point you still want one buy one and shoot it a lot. One of the worst things a PH encounters is a guy whose not familiar with his rifle and/or is a little afraid of it.

Mark

I still opt for the lighter mono metal bullets going fast. . I looked closely after I shot a bunch of 375 in my Lott and saw no indication that the 375 bullet touched the barrel at any point. . Oddly enough it was plenty accurate to shoot deer size animals at 50 yards.
I had a 16" round of knotty hemlock set at 80 some paces away in a rock pit and it made some great express sight blasting practice. I could hit in the center of it every shot if I aimed relatively well. It was all chewed to kindling by the time I shot a box of 375s at it.
Micheal458 has had reportedly very good success with the lighter than 500 gr weight bullets in 458 on cape buffalo.
I'm just saying that if a person wants the benefits of the greater diameter bullet you don't need heavy bullets to get that. .
My Lott fed great with everything from 300 gr TSX 458 Win Mag ammo thru 500 gr factory Lott RNSP.

quote:

Originally posted by gtrotz:
Hi to all.
Having a buffalo hunt in september I start looking what to hunt with.
I have a cz 458 lott and a Dumolin 416 rem
the two of them in 9,5-10 pounds weight with optic.
I shot a lot in the last months and this is what I found.
I like more and quick less the 416 Rem with 400 gr at 2400 fps ,also I hunt a water buffalo with it and it goes down like a piano.
New reglamentations in my country impede take it to the hunt so I return to the 458 lott and try new more easy loads.
First I bought some boxes of Norma African PH ammunition , in the box they say that is a 500 gr woodleigh bullet at 2100 fps.
I was reloading my ammo at 2150 gr with 500 gr bullets.
When I chronograph them ( the Norma) it was 2040 fps ( I think is due to the winter temperature in Argentina), really easy on my shoulder so I load my ammo to that velocity.
Now What do you think about the killing ability of this load, thinking that in hot temperature it will go to 2100 fps .
In my solid load I will use Sledgehammers 500 gr at 2040 fps loaded with Reloader 15.
Thanks to all
gtrotz

For buff a 500gr solid or soft moving at 2040fps is going to be fine, but, in my experience, that is the absolute low end for elephants. I have killed two elephants and two buff with 458wm loads that chrono'd at 2040fps or so. I have killed other game too, like Zebra, and 2040fps is plenty for that purpose.

I now load my 500gr softs and solids to 2135fps and 450gr FN solids at 2220fps using AA2230 and with the 500 grainers there is a noticeable difference in impact effect on elephants and I think buff. I don't notice the difference in recoil between the 500gr loads at 2040fps or 2135fps, though if I shot them back to back I surely would. With the 500's at 2135fps and the 450's at 2220fps I have killed another sixteen elephants and two additional buff.

So, if your hunt includes elephant, I would step up the loads to at least 2100fps and 2150 would be better. 2040fps is going to be fine for buff.

I would also suggest, for elephants, a change in bullets to either a good flat nose solid if they will feed or to Woodleigh 500gr round nose solids.

BTW, the 550gr Woodleighs reportedly work fantastically in the 458 Lott at 2150fps, but If the recoil of the 500's is an issue don't go to the 550's.

JPK

I have a CZ550 in .458 Lott. I like the rifle a lot (pun not intended) and to me the large footprint of the butt of the stock and generally beefy nature of the stock handles recoil very well. I have friends who had never shot anything bigger than a 30-06 who after a few minutes of instruction on proper technique have been able to shoot it accurately and without flinching so I think the recoil of a Lott is definetely manageable for most people. I think the Lott is really a fantastic cartridge. I generally shoot 500gr Woodleighs at about 2,300 and have shot the 550s some and the 550s recoil noticeably more. I also really like the fact that it holds 5 down.

quote:

Originally posted by SquirrelNut:
I have a CZ550 in .458 Lott. I like the rifle a lot (pun not intended) and to me the large footprint of the butt of the stock and generally beefy nature of the stock handles recoil very well. I have friends who had never shot anything bigger than a 30-06 who after a few minutes of instruction on proper technique have been able to shoot it accurately and without flinching so I think the recoil of a Lott is definetely manageable for most people. I think the Lott is really a fantastic cartridge. I generally shoot 500gr Woodleighs at about 2,300 and have shot the 550s some and the 550s recoil noticeably more. I also really like the fact that it holds 5 down.

My CZ Lott is almost unshootable.My nose swells to twice its size when I shoot it.

[My CZ Lott is almost unshootable.My nose swells to twice its size when I shoot it. [/QUOTE]

I love my Lott; my pecker swells to twice its size when I shoot it.

Just returned from Zim. Used my Blaser in 458 Lott for elephant. Used Michaels load for 450 grain CEB solids. Not only is it very accurate, the recoil is considerabley mild shooting off sticks. It's very accurate and put that ele down with one shot, frontal brain. Look at the 450grain CEB.

quote:

Originally posted by eyeman:
Just returned from Zim. Used my Blaser in 458 Lott for elephant. Used Michaels load for 450 grain CEB solids. Not only is it very accurate, the recoil is considerabley mild shooting off sticks. It's very accurate and put that ele down with one shot, frontal brain. Look at the 450grain CEB.

Smart fellow there!