The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores 458 Win Mag-458 Lott?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| One of Us |
If you have a rifle chambered in 458 LOTT, can you also shoot 458 win mag ammo in it as well....? They are both headspace off the belt so my guess is you can. Say your ammo does not show up and Lott ammo is not readily available would this be fine to shoot with a scope adjustment of course. Also would prolonged shooting of the shorter cartridge do any harm to the chamber. If a person was trying to condition themselves to recoil by starting with 458 Win Mag loads and working up to Full 458 Lott loads? I must assume if you do shoot the win mag in the lott you will loose velocity just as you would shooting a 375 H&H round in a 375 Ackley or 375 Wetherby. Any input is appreciated. Jason  6x NFR Qualifier NFR Champion Reserve World Champion Bareback Rider PRCA Million Dollar Club 02' Salt Lake Olympic Qualifier and an all around good guy! | ||
|
| Moderator |
Yes.
Yes.
Yes, eventually it would erode the forward part of the chamber (just like shooting hundreds of .38Spl. in a .357Mag. chamber); a better solution is to create reduced power loads using .458 Lott brass.
The velocity loss is not significant, maybe 30-50fps. George  | |||
|
| One of Us |
Thanks George 6x NFR Qualifier NFR Champion Reserve World Champion Bareback Rider PRCA Million Dollar Club 02' Salt Lake Olympic Qualifier and an all around good guy! | |||
|
| One of Us |
I don't want to kick up this whole argument again, but in my opinion, it is a better decision to go with a Lott instead of the win mag. I don't shoot my Lott with full loads that often. In fact, I generally shoot it at win mag standards. The advantage is that you have the option of loading hotter and you don't have the pressure issues that the win mag does. Also, you can really recreate 416 ballistics with a 400/450 grained boolit in a Lott. Just my opinion. "Sometimes nothing can be a pretty cool hand." 470 Heym; 9.3x74r Chapuis, Heym 450/400 on it's way | |||
|
One of Us |
..........Often the velocity of some win mag ammo won,t drop ..,.,. When I fire win mag ammo in my Lott it generally gains 10 or more feet per second over my win mag rifle ...The gain is probably from 5.5" longer barrel that my Lott has ...... .If it can,t be grown , its gotta be mined .... | |||
|
| one of us |
I get spanked every time I suggest the Lott is the answer to all the 458 Win. ills, but I still believe that...Load density of the 458 Win. is over 100% with about any 2100 FPS load..and that is compaction..The Lott solves the delima and it still shoots the std. 458 ammo, whats not to like about that, but there are those poor souls that just can't compute that...I won't name them because I don't want to hurt their feelings.  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
|
| One of Us |
.458 Lott can be loaded to anything a .458 WinMag can and more as well as more reliably at the hotter end of the WinMag spectrum. Can shoot regular WinMag in a pinch. Only downfall is brass costs but then if you are much worried about brass costs maybe you shouldn't be shooting anything big bore anyway. Wins all around. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I vote for the Lott for all the reasones posted. Tom, I can get Lott brass I can't get .458 brass outher than overpriced Norma. I have a back order for 500 at Midway and am still waiting fore that seasonal run. Bill Member DSC,DRSS,NRA,TSRA A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. -Mark Twain There ought to be one day - just one – when there is open season on Congressmen. ~Will Rogers~ | |||
|
| one of us |
Ray, Your post is full of it again. There are no issues at all with 458wm loads beyond 2150fps. Do a little research. Try reading the Hornaday maunual as I have previously suggested, or really go out on a limb and try loading for the 458wm - but use the Hornaday manual and use a chrono, not your imagination. By the way, I own both a 458wm and a Lott. But I hunt with thw 458wm. Nothing ever wrong with the Lott since it will shoot Lott ammo and near universally available 458wm ammo. But then there is nothing wrong with the 458wm to begin with. If you commision a rifle, make it a Lott, if you buy an existing rifle, be equally happy with the Lott or the 458wm. Don't F/U a good existing, new or second had 458wm by making it a Lott. JPK  Free 500grains | |||
|
| One of Us |
......I have 458 brass with all kinds of head stamps ......It,s like vicarious wildcatting ...................375 brass looks really cool with a reverse shoulder from being necked up to accept a .458 bullet ...... .If it can,t be grown , its gotta be mined .... | |||
|
| One of Us |
I concur. Although I do think that the win mag is effective in and of it's self now, I still believe the Lott to be the better option simply because it can do everything the win mag can and more. There's just no denying that. I don't know why one would deliberately choose a win mag over a Lott, but that's just my opinion. "Sometimes nothing can be a pretty cool hand." 470 Heym; 9.3x74r Chapuis, Heym 450/400 on it's way | |||
|
| one of us |
This is a lot of crap. Where did the original poster ask whether to buy a WM or a Lott?? Why can't the Lott worshipers just shoot their Lott and leave the WM shooters to do the same. Funny though a lot of Lott shooters can't seem to wait to get some light loads going.  We who are lucky enough to have an un bubbered WM have a classic, and we don't have to wonder what ammo to use. And so maddenwh draws the line. No one should buy ANY big bore under the Lott. Presumably you can load the Lott down to .375 H&H ? Gheesh. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Wow, not sure where you think I drew any line or whatever the hell you're talking about. You absolutely pulled this one out of your a$%... Geesh. Please point out in my quote where I even remotely discuss anything along these lines. All I said was that I prefer the Lott to the win mag with any load. Yes, I usually shoot lighter loads with my Lott. And Yes, a win mag can shoot these as well as my Lott and the pressure issue really isn't much of an issue anymore. But, your winmag can't shoot a 450 grained bullet as fast as my Lott can... thus the advantage of the Lott... like I said, it can do anything the win mag can and more. Why would you choose the win mag over the Lott even if you only shot the slower loads? Please do explain JAL, and try to be a bit more articulate than just describing something as crap. It's tough to comprehend your reasoning when your response is so trite. Oh yeah, I don't have anything against the win mag, I just think the Lott is more versatile. Two guns equally priced, buy the Lott. "Sometimes nothing can be a pretty cool hand." 470 Heym; 9.3x74r Chapuis, Heym 450/400 on it's way | |||
|
one of us |
But you add in the fact that this has been discussed here on AR a few hundred times, and who is going to shoot a Lott with 458 WM rounds 5 or 6000 times that it is really going to make any difference, I have decided to never buy a Lott. Or, is it I will never buy a 458 WM? I forget which! P.S. If one is really worried, GeorgeS's reply pretty much says it all. ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
|
| one of us |
A GREAT post. | |||
|
| one of us |
One thing I would do is check my primer pockets after load development.When I was testing loads for my 458WM I found 3 out of 50 cases whose primer pocket I could insert a primer in by hand.Velocities ranged from 2020 to over 2150 and I did not identify the load that caused the problem.This applies to all cartridges. | |||
|
Moderator |
the comments below are a JOKE and should not be taken seriously
shoothataway you presssure problems are due to you using over sized bullets. seriously.. take one of the bullets (not a loaded round, just a bullet..no brass, no powder) you loaded and see if you can press just the bullet into the muzzle. i bet you find that the bullet will not enter the barrel. in fact, i be you have been using oversized bullets in all your calibers, and that you don't properly clean the barrels means you are going to have high pressures now, back to reality - shoothataway, you are seriously over pressure in your loads, you have been told this by many serious reloaders. you are going to injure yourself.. PLEASE stop reloading,and if you took the oversized bullet JOKE seriously, you need to sell all your guns opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
|
| one of us |
I own the Lott and have shot a 458 Win Mag in it and it went 1900 FPS where as in a 458 Win mag It goes about 2150 FPS. I never questioned why It went so slow. But now I can understand | |||
|
One of Us |
As a veterinarian, I say dead is dead. It is just hard to have varying degrees of dead. My .458 Win Mag shoots 450 gr Northfork flat pt solids and N F softs at 2250 consistantly with out compressing a load. I can get more but don't want it. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
|
One of Us |
But one interesting Q is raised. It may have been answered throughoutly before, but how many fps do we loose when fiering a win in a lott chamber? No energy is lost too any fireforming like when a standard caridge is fired in an improoved chamber, and eccesive freebore does not normally decrease velocity. So what are the facts? Two barrels are not the same, so this can only be checked properly in a barrel chambered for the WinMag, cronograph, and then rechamber to the Lott and crono the samme WinMag ammo in the new Lott chamber. Bent Fossdal Reiso 5685 Uggdal Norway | |||
|
| one of us |
True enough. ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Brent, I think the loss of velocity is caused by the longer “free bore†caused by shooting the shorter cartridge in the lott chamber. I think this is the same as in the Wetherby rifles They are built with a long free bore area. You have to be careful in rifles not chambered by Weterby that they have this feature as it will cause excess pressure if you shoot Factory Wetherby in them. I do agree with you on the point of testing one barrel first in win. mag and then in lott. I think there will be some loss but I dough it will be enough to be a concern. To all those 458 lovers. You are right. Today the 458 does have factory ammo and you can load it to 500 gr at 2100-2150 totally adequate for DG. I can remember shooting 458 win mag Winchester Factory ammo about 30+ years ago that didn’t make 1900 fps. Bill Member DSC,DRSS,NRA,TSRA A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. -Mark Twain There ought to be one day - just one – when there is open season on Congressmen. ~Will Rogers~ | |||
|
| one of us |
Bill Cooley gives a pretty good picture of history. I have tried some really old Winchester 458wm loads and they don't exactly burn down range. But recall that just two hunters, Ron Thomson and Richard Harland, shot on the order of 9,000 elephant between them, on Zim tsetse fly eradication culling programs, using factory Winchester ammo. Both afirmatively state in their respective books - both great reads by the way - that they never had any issues with that ammo or the 458wm. JPK Free 500grains | |||
|
| one of us |
But they were shooting the baby pygmy Zim elephants! ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I can only speek for my 458 Lott. In it's 23" barrel, the 458 Win loads went out the barrel within 25 fps velocity as out of a 24" barreled 458 Win. 465H&H | |||
|
| One of Us |
I think it would be interesting to better know the time line. I think Winchester corrected the ammo issue fairly quickly. I don’t have any hard dates so I can’t say. I wonder how the time line is on the culling verses Winchester’s fixing of the ammo problem. I would think if they, Ron Thomson and Richard Harland, had a problem they would have mentioned it. 9,000 elephant is a lot of shooting. We all know how if something gets a bad rap it stays on and on even after the problem is fixed. Bill Member DSC,DRSS,NRA,TSRA A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. -Mark Twain There ought to be one day - just one – when there is open season on Congressmen. ~Will Rogers~ | |||
|
| one of us |
maddenwh. My apologies, I forgot many posters think the next post after theirs refers to THEM. My reference to you (at the end)is to the above quote, in that the original poster did not ask which to buy or which was better, and how do you know what he's going to do with it?? Most of my post was a wee dig at Ray who wants to convert any WM he can get hold'a to save us all from "the mistake that Winchester made." (Allowing that Ray has forgotten more about anything than I'll ever know.) Also my post was a wee dig at all the Lott devotees that jump up at the mere mention of the WM. So you don't know why anyone would by a WM over a Lott?? Well I can't see why some of you can't see why. Oh hell, I just remembered, your that over educated young spelling bee type character I tend to annoy? Jeepers, what a coincidence. I've done it again. Anyway Will is right. GeorgeS said it all at the beginning, the rest of us are just crapping on.  | |||
|
| one of us |
Aw come on guys, convert your Win Mags to a Lott and be done with it, you will be glad you did... Question? If the 458 Win is such a good round then why is everybody touting the 450 gr. bullet, doesn't that tell you it didn't have enough case capacity for a 500 gr. bullet. Come on, get real, get with the program, let me show you the way, bring you into the light brothers! follow my lead and you will wear diamonds as big as horse turds!  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
|
| One of Us |
Here's what you said JAL... "And so maddenwh draws the line. No one should buy ANY big bore under the Lott. Presumably you can load the Lott down to .375 H&H ?" You did specifically name me as drawing a line; I didn't assume anything. But, all's good. I see your point regarding the fact that some may just not want a Lott. I was just suggesting that those that don't already have an opinion should consider the Lott over the win mag, but that's neither here nor there. Educated, young, spelling-bee type...? No, no spelling bee type here. I've just invested in spell check and don't find humor in being called an idiot by an idiot... not saying you're an idiot mate, just a principle. Keep up the good work. "Sometimes nothing can be a pretty cool hand." 470 Heym; 9.3x74r Chapuis, Heym 450/400 on it's way | |||
|
| One of Us |
.Whats wrong with 450 gr bullets in the 458 .......?? .If it can,t be grown , its gotta be mined .... | |||
|
| one of us |
No Ray, Nice cannard again. Go and take a look at the 480gr Woodleigh, less room for powder than the 500gr Woodleigh so it ain't bullet weight alone. But when you go to mono bullets, you will do better with the 450gr flat noses than any round nose and this applies to the 458wm and the Lott. None of the 458's are over stabilized. And whats up - now your crapping on your proffessed favorite bullet the North Fork! Having a "senior moment?" I guess the 416 Remington doesn't have enough powder room for the 400 grain bullet since the North Fork is only 370 grains. Ditto for the 416 Rigby - OOPS, lets not forget the 375H&H at 280 grains. What do all of these bullets have to do with one another? They are all mono bullets, lighter than traditional for calibre, AND the all come from a case the length you advocate! What different with the 500 and the .458" bore? The traditional weight is 480grs. The Lott is right with the 550 Woodleighs though, which just don't work for the 458wm. And don't forget those hundred or so post where you tell the world that the real deal is 500grs at 2050fps from your 470! Perfect for all that walks! Yea, but 250fps for a 500 grainers is weak stuff from the 458wm and you ought to know that if you ever tried it! Back to the common sense - If you commission a new rifle, commision a Lott, if you find an existing rifle, new or second hand, in 458wm, leave it alone and don't F/U by rechambering it. JPK Free 500grains | |||
|
| one of us |
Nothing! They are as good in the 458wm as in the 458Lott. And when you are talking the North Fork flat nose solids, (and probably the GS Custom's too but no personal experience) they beat the heck out of round nose solids. Ray is just throwing our another cannard to bolster his fact free arguement. JPK Free 500grains | |||
|
| one of us |
Just to stir it up a bit more, a 450 gr. bullet is not as good as a 500 gr. bullet. The apparent reason for 450 gr. monos, such as the NF, is that they will stabilize, while the 500 gr. will not. As long as you pick on Ray, somewhat akin to picking on Capstick, for his little deviations from the facts, let us all be truthful. ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
|
| one of us |
Will, The 450gr flat nose solids's penetrate better, with no loss of "knockdown" effect that I can see. That adds up to better, not lesser. If we picked up the twist, maybe a 500gr flat nose would be even better though. For those I think you would need the Lott's capacity. JPK Free 500grains | |||
|
| one of us |
Free 500grains | |||
|
| One of Us |
"Diamonds as big as horse terds..." I'm going to side with Ray sheerly for the fact that I haven't heard such a spectacular simile as that in some time. Consonance aside; Ray- you got me slapping my knee.  "Sometimes nothing can be a pretty cool hand." 470 Heym; 9.3x74r Chapuis, Heym 450/400 on it's way | |||
|
One of Us |
FWIW, shooting Winnies in a Lott is NOT like shooting standards in an improved chamber. As the there's no energy used to increase case capacity, it's more like a freebore situation and it wouldn't surprise me if there certain Winnie loads could be made faster from a Lott chamber. | |||
|
| One of Us |
PWS, my point exactly!  Bent Fossdal Reiso 5685 Uggdal Norway | |||
|
| one of us |
JPK, Your boring me to death with your rant, and I am tryin to be civil with you, not so on your part in several threads.. I agree that with "monolithics" and/or a good "handload" with regular bullets the .458 is a good cartridge, I have said that all along but you passed on that everytime..Any 500 gr. bullet at 2000 FPS is a big game round IMO, the .458 can squeeze that out safely, but beyond that its questionable unless one shoots a 26" barrel and perhaps has a longer throat and magazine, then 2100 may be doable IMO...I base this on my chronograph, not assumption or guess and by gosh. I also know it was and is a poorly designed case from the get go. It should have been a 2.80, 2.85 or 3" round, no earthly reason why it wasn't other than Winchester was in to short magnums at the time as they were popular.. If you were right then all this "well, use 450 gr. bullets or use 400 gr. bullets and this powder only etc. ya ya...That in itself tells me the round is short on powder capacity..Also the claims of velocity with safe pressures by you is a croc and that can be varified by simply looking at a Swift reloading manual for one and observing the powder density for your so called wonder powders. Now if you don't have a problem with compaction then that is fine, I do have a problem with compaction and clumping of powder. IMO, converting a .458 Win. to a Lott is so simple that its ridiculas not to do so..I have yet to hear a reason why you refuse to even consider this approach. Bottom line is we disagree, its bothering you a lot more than it bothers me..and as far as your "experience" goes that you quoted me in another thread, can it, I'm not impressed, I have been there also... Your comparison to me shooting a 370 gr. GS Custom or North Fork in my 416 makes little since to me, I shoot it because neither one of them make a 400 gr. because a 400 gr. is too long..Like I said monolithics change the whole picture. I am not going to change my opinnion and neither or you, so let it go at that, I am trying my best to be congeniel and keep this subject to intelligent conversation. If that is unsuitable to you then I see no point in continueing it... Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
|
| One of Us |
Ray, FYI, I chronoed some Hornady 500 grain solids from a 24" barreled Remington 458 Win. The listed velocity is 2,260 fps. The chronoed velocity was 2,133 fps with a sd of 9 fps. I doubt that Hornady would sell ammo that is over pressure standards and therefore unsafe. 465H&H | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores 458 Win Mag-458 Lott?
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia