I'm planning a trip to hunt cape buff and PG in 2011 in Tanzania. I'm taking my CZ American 9.3x62 for pg, when presented, my CZ 404 Jeff, and a 458 Lott I'll be getting my brother for the trip (probably just produce the originally intended 458 win mag ballistics but at lower pressures). I figure it's a better deal to back up the buff gun as opposed to another pg rifle because buff will be our primary goal. Also, I assume my 404, or the 458 Lott, can be used for pg if needed. I think a rugged, proven cartridge and rifle will be perfect for our trip (recoil is not an issue with my brother, as he is a solid 6'1" 250 lbs of muscle and has a seemingly endless limit for recoil).

My immediate thoughts went to the CZ 458 Lott. As I mentioned, I own two other cz's, which will include another 6.5x55 I'm ordering on Monday.

My next consideration was the RSM 458 Lott. I considered buying a 458 win mag and then having my gunsmith stretch out the action to 2.80" for the Lott, but I feel like guns are fairly priced enough now that that is no longer economically necessary. Unless, I'm not considering a certain brand or make of rifle.

I was also considering such makes as whitworth, amongst others. One requisite is a sufficient amount of weight (not some 8 llb rifle with a synthetic stock, though I have no qualms w/synthetic stocks). He can handle recoil (I can too, but to a lesser degree), but we don't want him getting brain damage and ruining MY trip.

I went with the 458 Lott because there is a fantastic bullet selection, it can shoot win mag ammo, and I would guess ammo is relatively easy to find in Africa. Also, it's a great round to reload for, and whose to say there's anything wrong with playing with my brother's future rifle for the time being. I thought loading some 400 grd pills at ~2,300 fps would be a good pet load and serve as great pig fodder; I could move up from there.

What do you all think of the choice, I'm sure there will be detractors, and what are the various pros and cons of these two rifles? Thanks so much for the sage advice. As usual fellas, it's much appreciated.

P.S. My brother is not a big gun nut, so I'll get to play with the gun for the next year and a half. I'm ONLY preparing for the trip this early because good practice makes perfect. Considering this, I have some time to make a decision and find the appropriate rifle.

I would be happy with either Ruger or CZ.
The newest iterarion of Ruger RSM .458 Lott weighs about 10 pounds dry,
and will be about 1/2 to 3/4 pound heavier than the CZ (depends on wood), right out of the box.
The RSM will thus be less likely to drive a scope into your brother's forehead.
Be sure the LOP is proper for bro'.

CZ. With some work by AHR.

But I do admit that Rugers of all stripes just leave me cold. High on looks, at a superficial level, but low on utility, IMHO.

CZs, on the other hand, are off the chart on utility, once properly tweaked.

MR -- just a good natured question..
out of the box, you can drop a 458 lott or 416 rigby right into an open mag port of X, and close the bolt. it will snap over, with trivial effort .. and has a 3 position safety, with nil reputation of breaking stocks, has intregal scope bases, and a quarter rib above and below on the barrel

so, my question is, have you ever had an RSM as compared to a CZ, crack out of the box? I am curious, and not being a smart A, as to what utility you think the rugers to be low on?

it is my opinion that one can spend about the same money, and have a very simular functioning rifle -- though the ruger will have the nicer barrel and probably a nicer stock

I tried to buy a big rifle for my brother, who also routinely claims that he'd not bothered by recoil. However he refused to accept a 458 Win I tried to give him, and insists he's only interested in the 375 H&H I gave him.

You may want to really make sure that he's not affected by recoil -- I suspect my brother is, but won't admit it... Similarly, my brother isn't particularly "gunny." Of course, he also has the unnerving ability to never practice w. his rifle, and be a phenomenally good shot w. it.

I think you should try to talk him into practicing w. his rifle, before hunting buff -- tell him it's to shake down his rifle, more than for him to practice -- it works on getting my brother to practice.

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:
I tried to buy a big rifle for my brother, who also routinely claims that he'd not bothered by recoil. However he refused to accept a 458 Win I tried to give him, and insists he's only interested in the 375 H&H I gave him.

You may want to really make sure that he's not affected by recoil -- I suspect my brother is, but won't admit it... Similarly, my brother isn't particularly "gunny." Of course, he also has the unnerving ability to never practice w. his rifle, and be a phenomenally good shot w. it.

I think you should try to talk him into practicing w. his rifle, before hunting buff -- tell him it's to shake down his rifle, more than for him to practice -- it works on getting my brother to practice.

He shot the previous 458 Lott I had well off the bench (a mod 70 458 win that had been converted). So, no. He is not recoil sensitive. I've spent a legitimate amount of time shooting rifles, and I can verify that he can handle recoil better than I can. 458 Lott shooting 500 grained bullets at 2,300 fps is my upper comfortable limit.

quote:

The RSM will thus be less likely to drive a scope into your brother's forehead.
Be sure the LOP is proper for bro'.

Laughs at my expense... now we're all having fun

Would you feel guilty if I told you I was a cancer patient... No really, I am. Use that all the time.

I guess we're both sitting on a computer at 11 on a Sunday night and probably were doing the same thing on a Saturday. Nuff said!

Thanks for the lessens in physics though.

I put myself out there, looking for a little advice...

LOL. I guess I literally set myself up for it. Just know RIP that I'll be laying in wait for retribution.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
MR -- just a good natured question..
out of the box, you can drop a 458 lott or 416 rigby right into an open mag port of X, and close the bolt. it will snap over, with trivial effort .. and has a 3 position safety, with nil reputation of breaking stocks, has intregal scope bases, and a quarter rib above and below on the barrel

so, my question is, have you ever had an RSM as compared to a CZ, crack out of the box? I am curious, and not being a smart A, as to what utility you think the rugers to be low on?

it is my opinion that one can spend about the same money, and have a very simular functioning rifle -- though the ruger will have the nicer barrel and probably a nicer stock

Hey, jeffe, I said I would go for the CZ only after a few tweaks by AHR, didn't I?

The Ruger is big and bulky and heavy.

The CZ, with the same bucks in the job, would not be. The CZ, with proper fit-out, is an agile, quick and handy rifle.

But I do admit that this stuff all boils down to taste and preference, and that I am a CZ man and would only take a Ruger afield if I had no other choice.

As much as I hate to quench a fun idea, I think a 375H&H would be the better coice. Fine as a buff gun, fine as a PG rifle. Load it with 270gr Barnes softs and solids and it will be equally fine for buff or PG and be the better back up both ways.

JPK

Yeah, not real interested in the H&H, and this is not a thread just about a 'fun idea.' The 9.3, though not an analog, sort of fits the bill as a multi-purpose cartridge. I've had a couple 375's and know it's a fine cartridge, but not really what the discussion is about. Besides, the PH suggested using at least a 416 for buff, although he said a 375 would work on the lighter end.

If a three-position safety is important, you can order you CZ's with them (or it is just a drop-in fix).

I have the CZ550 458 Lott. That rifle doesn't Kick Much. Special when standing up. It fits me to a T.
It Has 74 Ft Lbs OF recoil.

Hello,
Short of a true custom build, I personally find my RSM, whichever caliber, to be about as practical and utilitarian as any, yet has the classic lines of a big bore bolt gun. Only thing I find superficial is the poor excuse for a recoil pad and that is easily taken care of w/ lace up pad or Galco's velcro version. Either one does help a bunch in felt recoil. With pricing of the RSM's hovering in the mid teens and a little bedding work for surety's sake, end result is an excellent big bore hunting rifle. Admittedly I am a Ruger fan and am what you would call financially conservative, some say cheap!, and to me anyway, the RSM is a lot of value for the dollars invested. Trying to decide which rifle to purchase is half the fun!! Good luck whichever way you go.

martin

If it is just that game animal you are hunting, that 458 Lott I believe would be more than sufficient. I have one and a 470 and they both have a good wallop.
I really prefer my 416 Remington Mod 70 custom. It recoils far less and really is a much more versatile gun.
Not unlike JPK's suggestion (versatility), load this one one up with 350 X's at 2600 FPS and you can tag a kudu or impala at 300 yards if so desired with little fuss and a lot of confidence. From all accounts that 350 gr. Barnes X is pretty wicked on buffalo as well.
If you want something more traditional, get a CZ in 404 Jeffery which is about the ballistic twin of the Remington 416.
Food for thought? The Lott is a fine cartridge!

RSM out of the box is ready to go except the recoil pad which is a quick fix. Rarely does a CZ not need some tweaking to get it right. I agree with JPK the 375 would be a better caliber selection unless you are going to primarily tip over pacyderm, which you mentioned in your post it's a buff gun.

Thanks MR -- I really justed wanted to know what would drive that sort of opinion . and heavy is a ruger!

I used my RSM to take a buff this spring.- I can't imagine what A CZ could of done better- It feeds smooth,is probably the most accurate gun I own (Its tough to shoot from the bench though!). My only modification was the recoil pad- a bolt on pachmyer decellerator pre-fit to the ruger77 was a 10 minute no hassle exchange job.



In my opinion it looks about 10,000% better than any stock CZ I have ever seen ( I know I'm abit biased).In all aspects- the wood is quite nice, ebony forend, integral quarter rib etc...


recoil is very managable for me with the ruger stock design. The CZ stock design feels quite short in the LOP for me- just how the grip is shaped I believe. With a tape measure they measure about the same LOP

The only thing I am considering doing to it is possibly modifying the safety lever. I feel that the stock one might be abit small and could benefit from being extended by about 1/8". Its very useable as is but I can't have a rifle that I don't mod somehow

As an aside when I asked my PH if he coveted any of my kit during the Tip phase of the hunt his reply was "You can damn sure leave that .458 Lott here!" I think that says quite alot as I also had a set of leica geovid BRF 10x42's with me that he used extensively, a Pre64 mod.70 in .375h&h with a custom stock from griffin andf howe from 1949, and a Kimber SuperAmerica in 300 with a Swarovski Z6 10x42 illuminated. Out of all that gear the only thing he felt he would like was the RSM! When I asked him what to bring in the morning for guns his answer was always the same- "Bring the Lott" It didn't matter if we were looking for buff, leopard bait, kudu, whatever it was the Lott was the answer in his mind. I did talk him into using the camp .22 for doves and dassies but it took abit of convincing.LOL

He had a CZ 458 Lott built by Sabi Rifles in South Africa, but still coveted the RSM.

I'm usually not a ruger fan at all- I will not own another one in any centerfire cartridge, Much prefer a Remchester, or a Sako to any of the Rugers I have bought and sold over the years. Now if someone gave me one I wouldn't even bother to shoot it- I'd just sell it to whoever I could talk into taking it. All of my earlier comments are reserved for the RSM and don't extend to the rest of rugers centerfire lineup.

I personally think that the Ruger RSM vrs CZ discussion comes down to a matter of cost and available monies.

Rugers are pretty much done when purchased ... but at a cost. CZs are the starter to the process needing some real work. Can a CZ be complete at a lower cost than a Ruger ... yes. Will it have a quarter rib when completed ... no, it costs are to be held in line.

I personally find the Rugers to be a little nose heavy. Do I own one ... no; they don't fit into my budget well. Would I own one ... you betcha!

I agree with Mike. I think the Ruger Safari Magnum is a really nice gun but it is hit or miss on the wood. You get a few that come through with really nice wood but most are pretty plain. I think people pick them over at the factory. I also find that they can be really barrel heavy, especially the .375. The CZs may need a little polishing but they are much better balanced. Personally, I would pick the CZ. The last one I bought was a .416 Rigby with a brown laminated stock and all I ever did with it was shoot it. It workds great but it is going to go off to Wayne at AHR to the barrel cut back to 24 inches, get bedded, and get a gunkote finish.

I would still be happy if a Ruger was that only bolt action I owned.The Ruger has 6 deeply land barrel that lasts longer than the CZ,shallow 4 land barrel.Both barrels are very accurate but I think the Rugers' is a little more accurate.The trigger and safety on the Ruger are very good and likely better than you could do with a CZ.The Ruger has a better firing pin spring.The CZ has a a bolt that can easily be taken apart,a one piece machined trigger guard,an action that can be made slicker and has a really good extractor.They are both nice rifles.I don't think you will like one more than the other.I think when your done with upgrading the CZ,it will end up costing more than the Ruger.

I'd buy a Ruger

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I would still be happy if a Ruger was that only bolt action I owned.The Ruger has 6 deeply land barrel that lasts longer than the CZ,shallow 4 land barrel.

groove, george, GROOVE .. that's the CUT part ..

good god, you truely are amazing

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I would still be happy if a Ruger was that only bolt action I owned.The Ruger has 6 deeply land barrel that lasts longer than the CZ,shallow 4 land barrel.

groove, george, GROOVE .. that's the CUT part ..

good god, you truely are amazing

Hey - his lands could be shallow ... especially after 10,000 rounds and a gallon of Soft-Scrub ...

"g, does that matter jeffe?"

Yes, when that is the basis of making a factual decision, haveing you facts wrong, or worse, BACKWARDS means, frankly, he's a maroon

"guilty" is just the entire opposite of "innocent" and both are bigger words

Hello,
No. of lands and grooves "off topic," but my RSM and No. 1 458Lott are 8 groove, not six. Perhaps mine are factory rejects??, but they both shoot very well. I am able to visit w/ Douglas Barrel Co. folks frequently and upon asking one of their very experienced people what the difference was between 4 and 6 groove barrels he simply said, two grooves!!
Their mil spec barrels(5.56 and .308) are 4 groove and that is why I was wondering, but as long as they shoot well, not an issue w/ me as to the number of grooves.

martin

quote:

Originally posted by mstarling:
I personally think that the Ruger RSM vrs CZ discussion comes down to a matter of cost and available monies.

Rugers are pretty much done when purchased ... but at a cost. CZs are the starter to the process needing some real work. Can a CZ be complete at a lower cost than a Ruger ... yes. Will it have a quarter rib when completed ... no, it costs are to be held in line.

I personally find the Rugers to be a little nose heavy. Do I own one ... no; they don't fit into my budget well. Would I own one ... you betcha!

.
.
. I agree ,except I really like a band sling stud , to keep the muzzle low when walking thru brush ,and the Ruger comes with it . the CZ and the Ruger have excellent sights , but the CZ has about the most practicle front sight hood there is ! ( and I have a NECG windowed hood on my 9.3) I,m pretty big on front sight hoods ... The CZ with it's integral rear sight base and under barrel lug is perfect but so is the Ruger's integral rib ..... I prefer the Ruger safety , AS IS ..... I like the CZ set trigger ..... I don,t know which one is tougher ....There is a good chance they are both tougher than I am ... They are the only 2 rifles I would say that of , tho something made up on a model 30 or 17 Enfield , or a Magnum Mauser would probably be in the same boat .........
.
. They are both great . What he likes best would probably be best .......

correction 8 grooves not 6- was going to change it yesterday but...

I think I'll let him shoot my cz 404 and see what he thinks. I owned an RSM 375 H&H and thought it to be quite a bit too bulky for that cal, but it might be pretty sound for s Lott.

Thanks for the opinions. We'll see what he likes (he may want a 416 when all is said and done)