Here is my 2 cents on dealing with recoil. I find when one gets up in power levels, there are 3 components. One is the ouch component, this is produced by the real high velocity rounds that have a lot of gas coming out the end, and come back with a fast jab. These rounds get the most benefit from a brake, as the extra gas from the extra powder is producing a lot more recoil than the smaller cases, with only moderate increases in velocity. My personal solution to dealing with these rounds is not to shoot them. I�ve been next to folks shooting braked 300 win mags and it fealt like a grenade was going off with every shot. The Past pad mentioned below helps, but I personally find a sharp jab the biggest factor in creating a flinch.

The next component is the push, which one starts to notice with bullets weighing 250 or more grains. To deal with these, I use a Past recoil pad on my shoulder when shooting off the bench. I also firmly hold onto the fore end to keep the stock from rising up and slapping my face. The past makes a huge difference, only costs $40, works with all guns, and doesn�t make extra noise like a brake. It does change the fit of the rifle by increasing the pull ~3/4�, but that�s the only downside, and I leave it home when in the field. I find it hard to believe that so set up, one cannot handle a .375 from the bench barring physical ailments.

The final level of recoil is what I call the oh man level, which my 458 lott dishes out when pushing 500�s at 2300 fps. I�ve tried shooting those loads off the bench twice, but learned my lesson. Stoppers are not meant to be shot from the bench, and those trying to get guilt edged accuracy from such guns are totally missing the point. Shoot em standing up with your forehand rested on something to steady the shot. So maybe you only shoot 2 moa. If you must shoot such guns from the bench, put 25, or better 50 pounds of sand or lead between your shoulder and the butt. Its hard to get in a shooting position so far from the gun, but that�s the best way to take the punch out of a stopper.

Dealing with recoil is a mental exercise, you tell yourself the gun won�t hurt you, and when set up so it doesn�t happen, you reinforce the fact. There are many things that can decrease ones recoil tollerance, stress, sleep deprivation, first time at the range in many months. I find that properly set up, I don�t flinch, but I do notice after a few rounds I have to really concentrate on the big guns, and will get to a point where I am too mentally tired to continue shooting.

Anyhow, this is what works for me, and has allowed me to handle recoil without resorting to a brake. If I ever build the 458 Alaskan varminter1, I will definately brake it, but don�t see the need for one for most sporting cartridges or shooters. BTW, I used the flinch with my .308 when I started shooting centerfire rifles and couldn�t imagine handling a bigger rifle, so I haven�t always been immune to recoil.

As one of the newbies Thank You for re-posting.

I like the Past Magnum Pad too, and I understand that you can expect to fire twice as many shots wearing one as you can stand without one.

I also learned a useful technique from John Gannaway, one of Jeff Cooper's "rifle masters". After firing rifles with rifles of heavy recoil, take about 10 snap shots dry firing at about a 10" target at 100 yards. The theory is the dry firing or no-recoil firing resets your nervous system to expect no recoil.

The snap shot is a standing technique to deliver a shot in timely fashion (many hunters have trouble with this!). The shooter begins facing the target with the rifle in a field ready position -- butt stock along hip, and the eyes muzzle and target on a line (the "eyes-muzzle-target line or EMT line). To shoot bring the butt stock to the cheek while sliding the muzzle along the EMT line, squeeze the trigger when the sights bear. This shot should be delivered comfortably within 1.5 seconds.

jim dodd

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"if you are to busy to
hunt, you are too busy."

Regards PC

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I have one, and I like it alot. It shoots groups as small as I've seen using sand bags.

The Lahti rest has a shock absorber to simulate the human shoulder, and you fire the gun with a plunger that functions like a cable release on a camera. You stand alongside the gun and watch it fire.

Sometimes you want to shoot 30 or 50 or more rounds (chronographing new loads, comparing ten-shot groups...), and your shoulder might only be willing to put up with ten. The Lahti rest doesn't get tired, and it can't flinch.

Hey, a new application just occurred to me. You can watch someone else's bullet trajectory in a spotting scope due to the disturbance the bullet makes it the air, right? It is next to impossible to watch your own bullet, because the bullet is long gone by the time you can move your eye to the spotting scope. It should be very easy to aim the rifle in the Lahti rest, put your eye to the spotting scope, and then hit the plunger and watch your own bullet trajectory. I gotta try this.

H.C.

P.S.

Yeah, this is essentially a repost of information on the previous recoil thread too.

At some point, pressure becomes an unjustifiable result of velocity. Weatherbys' are a good example of excessive pressure, that gives little in impact difference to the animal, but a huge difference the the aimer.

What ammunition, commercial, has excellent ballistics, but lesser recoil?
What are pet loads for each caliber, that get the job done, but don't cause excessive recoil, by the calibers' standard?

Thanks
gs

I have a Lahti Rifle Evaluator on order.

Have you pulled the trigger yourself sitting behind the rest, or do you only use the trigger actuator?

thanks...jim dodd

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"if you are to busy to
hunt, you are too busy."

quote:

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Originally posted by Socrates:
The obvious question is:
With 375, 416, and 458, when do they really start kicking you?

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If the rifle is properly set up, it won't kick you, and it won't hurt you. In fact, you can signifigantly increase the level of power you can shoot comfortably by having a heavier rifle built, or God forbid, having a muzzle brake fit. The real question is, when does the mental attitude required to deal with the recoil become a limiting factor?

For me, the 458 lott 500gr @ 2300 fps after a few rounds is definately is in the leage of, I really need to convince myself to pull the trigger! When I loaded 350 gr @ 2400-2500 fps, I could shoot 20-30 rounds without regard to the recoil.

I have yet to shoot a 416, so can't personally comment on where the 400 gr @ 2400 fps stacks up.

The real key is desire. If you desire to shoot a big gun, go about setting up the gun, and yourself to handle the recoil, you will have no problem. My strongest advise is, don't go too far to fast, and if you flinch, stop the shooting session, don't ever fall into the urge to finish the box, even if there is just one round left. If you don't like recoil, then stay away from the big bores, as the do have more recoil, and shooting them will be less enjoyable. I have a friend up here who hunts with a 338 win mag, and inherited a 450 Watts, but sold it. He freely admits to abhoring recoil, and while he enjoys the terminal performance of the 338, doesn't care for the recoil. I personally find the 338 class of recoil as "pleasant", it is all personal perception.

I also highly recomend bringing a 22rf to the range with the big bore. Alternate between the two to see if you are flinching.

As I recall, you mentioned the biggest gun you've shot is an -06. My personal progression was an ultralight .308, 35 whelen ackley (250 gr @ 2700 fps), and then 458 lott.

I would recomend you make the move to a 375 H&H before jumping higher. If you handload, you can download the bigger bores, then work up.

quote:

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I have yet to shoot a 416, so can't personally comment on where the 400 gr @ 2400 fps stacks up.[/B]

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Noticeably more than a .375 with 300gr bullets, but very managable. All I notice is that it "rattles my brain" a little more. My .300 WinMag actually hurts my shoulder worse.

FWIW, I agree with all your observations on recoil up to the 400gr bullet at 2400fps. After that I am still a virgin, but I am hoping to change that with my next project.

Canuck

If I can ever get my 500 Jeffrey finished, I'll be able to comment on whether it kicks badly or not. I have a feeling that the cost of component bullets won't be the limiting factor on how much I shoot it though It really comes down to what weight of rifle one is willing to carry, and whether or not they go to a break as to where the dividing line is between shootable and unshootable.

Canuck,

So whatcha got in the works?

For me recoil gets heavy once I have to make some compromise when shooting the rifle.

I find the recoil from the 375 to be about my upper limit whereby I can still shoot the rifle just like a 270, especially from some improvised rests in the field.

Also for me, once I get above 375, recoil seems to take on a head jolting feel to it.

Mike

I think the most important thing, after the stock, recoil pad and gun weight have been attended to is just shooting the damn thing. When I stopped being in awe of the .375 and .416 I have and just shot them like any other gun I began to notice the recoil much less and have MUCH improved accuracy.

One more tip, have a friend load and hand the rifle to you between shots, loading sometimes and not others. You will notice if you are flinching, believe me. When I started with the .416 from a standing position, I almost fell over from leaning into the shot with the chamber empty...

Do you have a picture of your sissy bag that you described?

Jim,

Nope, I've only used the actuator.

Paul H,

Another good thing to have with you is a double action revolver. Working with the long and relatively stiff trigger pull helps recover the ability to surprise onesself with the short and relatively light rifle trigger pull.

All,

I wonder if silicone implants in the shoulder area would help. (Mercury?)

H.C.

[This message has been edited by HenryC470 (edited 12-27-2001).]

The .338 is the heavier rifle of the two at about 11 lbs but I was fiddling with some long range target rounds and loaded with 300 gr MKs traveling at about 2900 fps. The recoil of forty or sixty rounds at the bench was pretty wearing. I finally relented and had a Vais muzzle brake installed. While the recoil reduction is not as great as some brakes, there is no great increase in muzzle blast. I highly recommend the Vais, especially with a higher pressure high expansion ratio cartridge.

The .300 is a different horse that will get a new stock in addition to a muzzle brake. It's pretty lightweight and the recoil is very fast. I can shoot it offhand with no trouble with a sling. As a matter of fact, a sling helps out tremendously. I do not use a sling in the traditional manner which is one reason for needing a new stock, one that is quite a bit stiffer in the fore end because I really cinch down on the thing.

I did load up a few Nosler 125 BTs just to tinker with in the .300. I highly recommend it for the amusement factor. At about 3750 fps they vaporize things. Still a surprising amount of recoil with the lighter bullets but a tremendous amount of fun.

Used to bench test 500 grain, 45 Caliber shotgun sabots, at about 1600 fps, out of a 12 gauge. LOVED showing up at the range with a 12 gauge, with a scope on it..
The above are NOT pleasant rounds to shoot from a bench...

How would they compare to the 375 or 416 rigby?
gs

Alternatively the 1 7/8 oz BB loads kick more than factory power loads in his 375 H&H.

The 416 Rigby should be in a different class altogether.
Best way is to try them yourself mate.

Regards,
Karl.

Any experience with the F550 Pachmayr pads? I put one on my 416 (Taylor) stock -- the gun isn't done yet, but the components weighed about 8.5# -- I'm starting to wonder how the recoil will be. I may have to add some lead somewhere...

Todd

As I said before, moving up from an -06 to a 375 H&H isn't that big or bad of a jump. I think going to a 416 or 458 is a bit too much.

One time I had both the 458 lott and 308 at the range. I alternated between 3 shot groups with the lott, and 5 shot groups with the .308. After firing the lott, the 308 had absolutely no felt recoil.

I will also stress that to deal with the recoil of the heavies, you have to be in the right state of mind, relaxed, and unstressed. If you are wound up, not well rested, too much cafeine, I gurantee the recoil will be too much. Been there, done that. Its another reason to bring a 22, and/or a small centerfire to the range with the big bore. If you're not up to shooting the biggun, put it back in the case, and shoot the small one. I've had days where the recoil of the bolt on my 10/22 has bothered me.

To Suluuq, as I've stated, barring physical impalements, and properly setup, a big bore won't hurt you. That is not to say that a big bore can't hurt you. I have had some shoulder tenderness, and bruising can occur at times. This is mainly from extended bench sessions. Add a big sissy bag and they'll go away. There are ways to make the big guns shootable, if you want.

John, the 458 lott I had weighed ~ 9#'s, the barrel was ported, but I agree, on a straight case, the effect of the porting is minimal. My buddy who bought it had a custom synthetic stock made, and it now weights 8 1/4#'s as I recall. It is actually more pleasant to shoot with the new stock.

My new lott is being built with a Ruger #1 tropical 458 takeoff that will finish ~23", and I am looking forward to the weight of the "truck axle" barrel.

I also agree with Mike, a big bore can't be shot from any field position with disregard to recoil. That is the realm of the medium and small bore.

Hope this helps those contemplating a big bore. They do require a bit of a different approach, but they can be handled w/o beating you up.

A straight comb helps a lot. This does not need to be a straight buttstock. I just put a Remington BDL stock, which is a monte carlo style, on a Model 70 .375 H&H that had a Super Grade straight stock on it before. By �straight� I mean that the drop at comb and drop at heel are the same. The monte carlo has a straight comb parallel with the bore but then drops away from the bore line to the butt. The straight comb of the monte carlo does not whack my face, but the monte carlo design does allow the full height of the recoil pad to nestle into my shoulder pocket. With the straight stock only the bottom half or two thirds of the recoil pad is in full contact with my shoulder. I know folks says a monte carlo exacerbates recoil but I have found this to just not be the case. I fired 95 rounds of full power .375 loads, 270 grainers at 2750 fps, over two day this past weekend, many of them from the bench, and it just didn�t bother me at all. You can see the results of this at 24hourcampfire.com. Go to Hunter�s Campfire and look at the thread Successful Project � Winchester Model 70 BDL.

LOP � I�m not sure how this affects recoil perception, but it seems to have something to do with whether you have to crane your neck to look into the scope. My longer M70 stocks at 13 �� seem to jar my head more than my M700 stocks at 13 3/8�. But LOP is so subjective, I really don�t know how to recommend how to fit this. I stand 5�11�, �husky� build (okay, middle age spread build, around 210 pounds) and have just learned from experience that 13 3/8� is right for me.

A wide, well rounded comb helps spread the recoil impulse over a broader area of the face. So does a fatter butt pad. I love the way Winchester and Marlin lever actions handle, but those things with their increased drop at heel and thin combs hurt me all out of proportion to the recoil of the little .30-30 cartridge. The most painful rifle I ever shot was a Marlin .444. Felt like I took a left jab to the cheekbone with each shot. In comparison I fired several rounds from a Ruger #1 in .458 Magnum. That one made me take a step back with each shot but the straight comb did not hurt my face at all.

One of the most obvious but overlooked (or rejected) ways to reduce recoil is to simply increase the weight of the rifle. 25 pound bags of shot, etc. are just ways to temporarily increase the mass that the recoil must work against. Reduce the recoil velocity and you�ve tamed the worst part of the beast. My .375 mentioned above weighs 10 lbs. 7 oz with scope. It fires a 270 grian bullet at 2750 fps. It rocks me a little, but it just does not hurt. My .338 M700 with the identically shaped stock only weighs about 8.5 pounds all up, and it slaps me pretty hard firing a 225 grain bullet at 2825 fps. My shoulder really feels it after 20-30 rounds with the .338. I am having a .30-06 made up, another M70 BDL, that should weigh about 8 � pounds when done. With 180 grain bullets I don�t expect it to kick any worse than my 7 � pound 270 with 130 grainers.

Finally, learn to shoot from the kneeling position. I�ve found that this allows the upper body to rock and absorb recoil almost as well as shooting from offhand. Very quick to get into place, it is much steadier than offhand and you are higher than sitting. It is my most used field position.

I've done plenty of research,and as much as I would like a CZ 550 in 458, I think I'm going for the 416 rigby.

General plans are to start out with lighter, faster bullets, and work up.
I figure a 220 grain, 416, at 2500 should be the same as that out of a 3006, except, that the 416 is going to be built for it.

gs

Canuck

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NRA Life member

[This message has been edited by Bear Claw (edited 01-03-2002).]

Canuck

Why would you want to minimize it?