Dealing with Recoil

27 December 2001, 07:20

Paul H

Dealing with Recoil

I've posted this before, but since we seem to have a few new members, thought I'd bring it back:

Here is my 2 cents on dealing with recoil. I find when one gets up in power levels, there are 3 components. One is the ouch component, this is produced by the real high velocity rounds that have a lot of gas coming out the end, and come back with a fast jab. These rounds get the most benefit from a brake, as the extra gas from the extra powder is producing a lot more recoil than the smaller cases, with only moderate increases in velocity. My personal solution to dealing with these rounds is not to shoot them. Iï¿½ve been next to folks shooting braked 300 win mags and it fealt like a grenade was going off with every shot. The Past pad mentioned below helps, but I personally find a sharp jab the biggest factor in creating a flinch.

The next component is the push, which one starts to notice with bullets weighing 250 or more grains. To deal with these, I use a Past recoil pad on my shoulder when shooting off the bench. I also firmly hold onto the fore end to keep the stock from rising up and slapping my face. The past makes a huge difference, only costs $40, works with all guns, and doesnï¿½t make extra noise like a brake. It does change the fit of the rifle by increasing the pull ~3/4ï¿½, but thatï¿½s the only downside, and I leave it home when in the field. I find it hard to believe that so set up, one cannot handle a .375 from the bench barring physical ailments.

The final level of recoil is what I call the oh man level, which my 458 lott dishes out when pushing 500ï¿½s at 2300 fps. Iï¿½ve tried shooting those loads off the bench twice, but learned my lesson. Stoppers are not meant to be shot from the bench, and those trying to get guilt edged accuracy from such guns are totally missing the point. Shoot em standing up with your forehand rested on something to steady the shot. So maybe you only shoot 2 moa. If you must shoot such guns from the bench, put 25, or better 50 pounds of sand or lead between your shoulder and the butt. Its hard to get in a shooting position so far from the gun, but thatï¿½s the best way to take the punch out of a stopper.

Dealing with recoil is a mental exercise, you tell yourself the gun wonï¿½t hurt you, and when set up so it doesnï¿½t happen, you reinforce the fact. There are many things that can decrease ones recoil tollerance, stress, sleep deprivation, first time at the range in many months. I find that properly set up, I donï¿½t flinch, but I do notice after a few rounds I have to really concentrate on the big guns, and will get to a point where I am too mentally tired to continue shooting.

Anyhow, this is what works for me, and has allowed me to handle recoil without resorting to a brake. If I ever build the 458 Alaskan varminter1, I will definately brake it, but donï¿½t see the need for one for most sporting cartridges or shooters. BTW, I used the flinch with my .308 when I started shooting centerfire rifles and couldnï¿½t imagine handling a bigger rifle, so I havenï¿½t always been immune to recoil.

27 December 2001, 08:06

HunterJim

Paul,

As one of the newbies Thank You for re-posting.

I like the Past Magnum Pad too, and I understand that you can expect to fire twice as many shots wearing one as you can stand without one.

I also learned a useful technique from John Gannaway, one of Jeff Cooper's "rifle masters". After firing rifles with rifles of heavy recoil, take about 10 snap shots dry firing at about a 10" target at 100 yards. The theory is the dry firing or no-recoil firing resets your nervous system to expect no recoil.

The snap shot is a standing technique to deliver a shot in timely fashion (many hunters have trouble with this!). The shooter begins facing the target with the rifle in a field ready position -- butt stock along hip, and the eyes muzzle and target on a line (the "eyes-muzzle-target line or EMT line). To shoot bring the butt stock to the cheek while sliding the muzzle along the EMT line, squeeze the trigger when the sights bear. This shot should be delivered comfortably within 1.5 seconds.

jim dodd

------------------
"if you are to busy to
hunt, you are too busy."

27 December 2001, 08:59

<Mitch>

As Paul pointed out recoil is a subjective thing. What is not tolerable to one shooter is perfectly tolerable to another shooter. I have no problem shooting sub. moa groups from the bench with my 577 T.Rex that only weighs 14.3 lbs. using only a Past Shield. One should also bare this in mind when preparing to shoot big boomers.

27 December 2001, 09:21

When myself and my hunting companion go to sight in our .416 Rigby's we thought we might role a canvas gunbag up between our shoulder and the stock. I won't lie and I openly admit that I will need to learn to handle the recoil of my .416 before I graduate to something bigger. I intend to build a .585 Nyatti at some stage. Off the shoulder the .416 is fine but prone out of the ute window it certainly is a mental test for me at least any way.

Regards PC

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27 December 2001, 10:09

HenryC470

This is no substitute for shooting practice, but Lahti company sells a machine rest for rifles: www.lahticompany.com

I have one, and I like it alot. It shoots groups as small as I've seen using sand bags.

The Lahti rest has a shock absorber to simulate the human shoulder, and you fire the gun with a plunger that functions like a cable release on a camera. You stand alongside the gun and watch it fire.

Sometimes you want to shoot 30 or 50 or more rounds (chronographing new loads, comparing ten-shot groups...), and your shoulder might only be willing to put up with ten. The Lahti rest doesn't get tired, and it can't flinch.

Hey, a new application just occurred to me. You can watch someone else's bullet trajectory in a spotting scope due to the disturbance the bullet makes it the air, right? It is next to impossible to watch your own bullet, because the bullet is long gone by the time you can move your eye to the spotting scope. It should be very easy to aim the rifle in the Lahti rest, put your eye to the spotting scope, and then hit the plunger and watch your own bullet trajectory. I gotta try this.

H.C.

P.S.

Yeah, this is essentially a repost of information on the previous recoil thread too.

27 December 2001, 11:18

Socrates

The obvious question is:
With 375, 416, and 458, when do they really start kicking you?

At some point, pressure becomes an unjustifiable result of velocity. Weatherbys' are a good example of excessive pressure, that gives little in impact difference to the animal, but a huge difference the the aimer.

What ammunition, commercial, has excellent ballistics, but lesser recoil?
What are pet loads for each caliber, that get the job done, but don't cause excessive recoil, by the calibers' standard?

Thanks
gs

27 December 2001, 11:22

Nitroman

I think one of the coolest shooting sessions I was on was when watching the bullets from a Thompson submachinegun (m1927). I had never seen anything like that before or since.

27 December 2001, 11:28

HunterJim

Henry,

I have a Lahti Rifle Evaluator on order.

Have you pulled the trigger yourself sitting behind the rest, or do you only use the trigger actuator?

thanks...jim dodd

------------------
"if you are to busy to
hunt, you are too busy."

27 December 2001, 11:52

Paul H

quote:
Originally posted by Socrates:
The obvious question is:
With 375, 416, and 458, when do they really start kicking you?

If the rifle is properly set up, it won't kick you, and it won't hurt you. In fact, you can signifigantly increase the level of power you can shoot comfortably by having a heavier rifle built, or God forbid, having a muzzle brake fit. The real question is, when does the mental attitude required to deal with the recoil become a limiting factor?

For me, the 458 lott 500gr @ 2300 fps after a few rounds is definately is in the leage of, I really need to convince myself to pull the trigger! When I loaded 350 gr @ 2400-2500 fps, I could shoot 20-30 rounds without regard to the recoil.

I have yet to shoot a 416, so can't personally comment on where the 400 gr @ 2400 fps stacks up.

The real key is desire. If you desire to shoot a big gun, go about setting up the gun, and yourself to handle the recoil, you will have no problem. My strongest advise is, don't go too far to fast, and if you flinch, stop the shooting session, don't ever fall into the urge to finish the box, even if there is just one round left. If you don't like recoil, then stay away from the big bores, as the do have more recoil, and shooting them will be less enjoyable. I have a friend up here who hunts with a 338 win mag, and inherited a 450 Watts, but sold it. He freely admits to abhoring recoil, and while he enjoys the terminal performance of the 338, doesn't care for the recoil. I personally find the 338 class of recoil as "pleasant", it is all personal perception.

I also highly recomend bringing a 22rf to the range with the big bore. Alternate between the two to see if you are flinching.

As I recall, you mentioned the biggest gun you've shot is an -06. My personal progression was an ultralight .308, 35 whelen ackley (250 gr @ 2700 fps), and then 458 lott.

I would recomend you make the move to a 375 H&H before jumping higher. If you handload, you can download the bigger bores, then work up.

27 December 2001, 12:19

John S

Paul-
I can agree with most of what you say except the part of a properly set up gun not kicking you. BS!
A 460Wby, 500Jef, 505 Gibbs, 577N.E. 577 T-REX, 585 Nyati will kick you, badly. The trick is accepting it and learning to deal with it. As Mitch pointed out, one's tolerance is way above another's threshold.
Anything over a 338 and for me they start to kick, not hurt but indeed kick!
My own method of taming them is I believe much better than the PAST shield, 25# bags of shot, etc between me and the gun. I don't want a hard kicker to be in an awkward position when I shoot it so use my "sissy bag" laid underneath the forearm. It is attached to the butt by straps with webbing wrapped around the butt end. By pushing the bag forward I take the slack out of the straps. When the gun recoils back it must drag that 25# along with it, thereby lessening the recoil of a 460 down to that of a 300mag at most. The beauty here is that I can nestle in behind the gun just like I do under hunting setups. No extra 1" or 5" of LOP, just the recoil pad on my shoulder, where it's supposed to be!

27 December 2001, 12:44

Canuck

quote:
I have yet to shoot a 416, so can't personally comment on where the 400 gr @ 2400 fps stacks up.[/B]

Noticeably more than a .375 with 300gr bullets, but very managable. All I notice is that it "rattles my brain" a little more. My .300 WinMag actually hurts my shoulder worse.

FWIW, I agree with all your observations on recoil up to the 400gr bullet at 2400fps. After that I am still a virgin, but I am hoping to change that with my next project.

Canuck

27 December 2001, 13:11

Paul H

John,

If I can ever get my 500 Jeffrey finished, I'll be able to comment on whether it kicks badly or not. I have a feeling that the cost of component bullets won't be the limiting factor on how much I shoot it though It really comes down to what weight of rifle one is willing to carry, and whether or not they go to a break as to where the dividing line is between shootable and unshootable.

Canuck,

So whatcha got in the works?

27 December 2001, 14:16

Mike375

I about agree with John S. Only wished I had used bags of lead shot years ago.

For me recoil gets heavy once I have to make some compromise when shooting the rifle.

I find the recoil from the 375 to be about my upper limit whereby I can still shoot the rifle just like a 270, especially from some improvised rests in the field.

Also for me, once I get above 375, recoil seems to take on a head jolting feel to it.

Mike

27 December 2001, 14:23

John S

Paul,
My feeling about brakes are that they aren't worth the expense or noise.
I had my 458 LOTT built up on a M70 Super Grade that was originally a 300 Win. mag. Since I didn't want to replace the stock we had to make the new barrel very light for a 458! It ended up weighing 7.75# before we added some weight, which brought it to 9# all up! I had a KDF installed as well.
To say it was lively would be an understatement, and to say the KDF did nothing but increase the noise would too. I could never twll much difference, either in muzzle jump OR felt recoil.
I also have a 300 Jarrett that has a removable brake, I think it is KJ's own design. Now, it works to a noticeable extent. It really does take the sting out but at the expense of a huge increase in blast. So much so that I removed it and have never put it on again in several years.
So, do they work? I think their effects are most apparent on small caliber, ultra high velocity calibers. On pondering 500gr slugs I don't think they are the way to go. Gun weight is, but there is a limit to how much one can add before the rifle becomes a bench gun only. For me, that limit is about 11 pounds, and these days I find that objectionable, with 9 being soooooo much nicer to carry all day!

27 December 2001, 14:27

Brett

Two more cents... The shape of the stock will make a diffrence, the butt should be at right angles, more or less, to the long axis of the bore. Holding the rifle tightely helps too.

I think the most important thing, after the stock, recoil pad and gun weight have been attended to is just shooting the damn thing. When I stopped being in awe of the .375 and .416 I have and just shot them like any other gun I began to notice the recoil much less and have MUCH improved accuracy.

One more tip, have a friend load and hand the rifle to you between shots, loading sometimes and not others. You will notice if you are flinching, believe me. When I started with the .416 from a standing position, I almost fell over from leaning into the shot with the chamber empty...

27 December 2001, 15:04

Nickudu

Excellent posts, I think. I remain with Mike375 as to the .375 being my limit at all hunting ranges. I too can shoot mine just about as well as my 7 Mag. at extended range.
With the .416's I feel as comfortable out to say 200 yards or so, where I find myself wishing I had the .375 in my hands.
I have to concentrate a good bit more to shoot well afield with the .458 Lott at anything over 150 yards. I am happy with the .505 Gibbs only because I have absolutely no designs on using it a more than 100 yards and would much prefer working with it at a fraction of that distance. Under 60 yards I feel I can use it quite well enough afield but have not yet done so.

27 December 2001, 15:41

Craftsman

John S

Do you have a picture of your sissy bag that you described?

27 December 2001, 16:04

John S

Craftsman-
No I don't but I will try to get one with the digital camera and have someone post it up. I bought it several years ago, either Cabela's or Midway had them. It's really a simple affair that could be made rather easily.

27 December 2001, 16:06

Craftsman

Great, I would like to see it.

27 December 2001, 16:09

HenryC470

Jim,

Nope, I've only used the actuator.

Paul H,

Another good thing to have with you is a double action revolver. Working with the long and relatively stiff trigger pull helps recover the ability to surprise onesself with the short and relatively light rifle trigger pull.

All,

I wonder if silicone implants in the shoulder area would help. (Mercury?)

H.C.

[This message has been edited by HenryC470 (edited 12-27-2001).]

27 December 2001, 16:11

<Rust>

I ended up with a recoil problem mainly because of load developement and a touch of bursitis. About two years ago I just couldn't resist and ended up with a .300 RUM on an M70 and a .338 RUM on a 700. I ended up with two recoil problems.

The .338 is the heavier rifle of the two at about 11 lbs but I was fiddling with some long range target rounds and loaded with 300 gr MKs traveling at about 2900 fps. The recoil of forty or sixty rounds at the bench was pretty wearing. I finally relented and had a Vais muzzle brake installed. While the recoil reduction is not as great as some brakes, there is no great increase in muzzle blast. I highly recommend the Vais, especially with a higher pressure high expansion ratio cartridge.

The .300 is a different horse that will get a new stock in addition to a muzzle brake. It's pretty lightweight and the recoil is very fast. I can shoot it offhand with no trouble with a sling. As a matter of fact, a sling helps out tremendously. I do not use a sling in the traditional manner which is one reason for needing a new stock, one that is quite a bit stiffer in the fore end because I really cinch down on the thing.

I did load up a few Nosler 125 BTs just to tinker with in the .300. I highly recommend it for the amusement factor. At about 3750 fps they vaporize things. Still a surprising amount of recoil with the lighter bullets but a tremendous amount of fun.

27 December 2001, 17:47

Rusty Gunn

My hat's off to you guys who have learned to deal with the heavy recoiling rifles! I'm sure the recoil of the 577 or simular ones is rather stout, and to confess it hurts on occasion is something I've yet to read. A sort of "Recoil Club", I suppose and to be a member one must not 'fess the recoil hurts on occasion

(its a joke, otay?)
I don't like heavy recoil, period. Paul H has met me, and knows about my spine(neck to pelvis) condition that prohibits any heavy recoil. I once had a 375 WHBY Mag M70 years back, and quit cartridge development due to heavy recoil at the bench, and the beginining of my medical condition(which I didn't know existed yet).
About the most I can take is a heavy loaded 45-70 levergun. Even that hurts, and jerks my neck.
My new rifle is a 375 Whelen AI, which is to be done after New Years time, yet thats not close to what you dudes can handle, recoil-wise. So, my hat's off to you all, you're doing what I wish I could do, and shoot them really big bores. ~~~Suluuq

27 December 2001, 19:19

470 Mbogo

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rusty Gunn:
Hi Rusty Gunn,
With the problems you mentioned try putting a Pachmayer Triple x recoil pad on your new gun. They come in small medium and large. The model number is the F990. This will really help you out with your sensitivity to recoil by slowing down the recoil velocity and distributing the felt recoil. As mentioned above a straight stock cut 90 degrees to the bore line, a weight of 10 to 11 lbs and a good recoil pad will make a big bore more managable. The wieght range would be for rifles in the 416 to 505 Gibbs range. The cannons should weigh more. 470 Mbogo

27 December 2001, 23:30

Rusty Gunn

470 Mbogo... thanks for the advise. I'm looking to buy a Boyd's JRS laminated stock, and had decided to install a Decelerator pad as well. Being laminated, it should add a little more weight then straight walnut(my original choice). I'll look into the Tripple X pad, though.
I've made a Past-style pad for bench shooting, by cutting a sleeping pad and backing it with mallable plastic sheeting. It works just fine, taking the bite off the shoulder.
I won't be using a barrel-band front sight I originally wanted, this one will be screw-on Williams. My intention is to provide a quick, easy way to have a Brake installed for less money, if I need to do it. Thats a last ditch proposition, though. I once had a 338-06AI with a Quiet Brake that did wonders eliminating recoil, so this option remains open. ~~~Suluuq

27 December 2001, 23:36

Socrates

OK:
Recoil.
06 kicks more then I thought it would, after firing an M1A.
Not much, but more then expected.

Used to bench test 500 grain, 45 Caliber shotgun sabots, at about 1600 fps, out of a 12 gauge. LOVED showing up at the range with a 12 gauge, with a scope on it..
The above are NOT pleasant rounds to shoot from a bench...

How would they compare to the 375 or 416 rigby?
gs

28 December 2001, 00:48

Karl

Socrates,
My brother has fired a lot of those 3" brennekes Rottweil is making(600 grain I think) and considers them to have less recoil than a 375. This is from a light SXS shotgun.

Alternatively the 1 7/8 oz BB loads kick more than factory power loads in his 375 H&H.

The 416 Rigby should be in a different class altogether.
Best way is to try them yourself mate.

Regards,
Karl.

28 December 2001, 03:55

John S

Since I live in a state that only allows slug guns or MLs for deer hunting I have quite a bit of shooting time behind me with those things. If you think a slug gun kicks you aren't ready for a 416 or larger, I can promise you that. A 458 or 416 is at least double the blast and rearward recoil is much, much faster.

28 December 2001, 05:06

TGetzen

470 Mbogo:

Any experience with the F550 Pachmayr pads? I put one on my 416 (Taylor) stock -- the gun isn't done yet, but the components weighed about 8.5# -- I'm starting to wonder how the recoil will be. I may have to add some lead somewhere...

Todd

28 December 2001, 07:10

Paul H

I've shot the 3" 600 gr brenneke 12 ga magnum slugs, and would equate them with a 338 mag. Now, shotgun weight and stock design have alot to do with fealt recoil.

As I said before, moving up from an -06 to a 375 H&H isn't that big or bad of a jump. I think going to a 416 or 458 is a bit too much.

One time I had both the 458 lott and 308 at the range. I alternated between 3 shot groups with the lott, and 5 shot groups with the .308. After firing the lott, the 308 had absolutely no felt recoil.

I will also stress that to deal with the recoil of the heavies, you have to be in the right state of mind, relaxed, and unstressed. If you are wound up, not well rested, too much cafeine, I gurantee the recoil will be too much. Been there, done that. Its another reason to bring a 22, and/or a small centerfire to the range with the big bore. If you're not up to shooting the biggun, put it back in the case, and shoot the small one. I've had days where the recoil of the bolt on my 10/22 has bothered me.

To Suluuq, as I've stated, barring physical impalements, and properly setup, a big bore won't hurt you. That is not to say that a big bore can't hurt you. I have had some shoulder tenderness, and bruising can occur at times. This is mainly from extended bench sessions. Add a big sissy bag and they'll go away. There are ways to make the big guns shootable, if you want.

John, the 458 lott I had weighed ~ 9#'s, the barrel was ported, but I agree, on a straight case, the effect of the porting is minimal. My buddy who bought it had a custom synthetic stock made, and it now weights 8 1/4#'s as I recall. It is actually more pleasant to shoot with the new stock.

My new lott is being built with a Ruger #1 tropical 458 takeoff that will finish ~23", and I am looking forward to the weight of the "truck axle" barrel.

I also agree with Mike, a big bore can't be shot from any field position with disregard to recoil. That is the realm of the medium and small bore.

Hope this helps those contemplating a big bore. They do require a bit of a different approach, but they can be handled w/o beating you up.

28 December 2001, 07:26

470 Mbogo

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Todd Getzen:
Hi Todd,
I looked in my Brownells catalog and was only able to find the T550 pad which is their trap pad. Looking at the pad it looks like the double X magnum pad that A-Sqaure used to put on all their rifles. I had one of these pads on my 450 Ackley. The F990 White line field is thicker than the pad you listed and will absorb more recoil. The double X magnun pad used to bottom out on the Ackley but the triple X doesn't seem to do the same even on my 470 Mbogo or the 500 A-Square. If you shoot a 500 grain bullet at 2200fps to 2350 fps you can feel the pad compressing at the shot as it's reducing the recoil velocity. This is with a straight stock, nuetral pitch and a gun weight in the 10.5 lbs range. Try your 550 pad and if your not happy with it you still have an option open. 470 Mbogo

29 December 2001, 01:42

Rusty Gunn

The last few times I installed recoil pads I ground them at an angle, where the pads fits the stock, leaving the face as large as it came, and angling down to the stock. This provided a larger surface area against the shoulder. Looks sort of unusual, but my rifles are to shot, not looked at. It works, I'm sure, having a larger surface against the shoulder. ~~~Suluuq

29 December 2001, 04:56

Jim in Idaho

Stock fit is a good part of this equation, unfortunately Iï¿½m not an expert on what constitutes good fit. Will give my opinion, though.

A straight comb helps a lot. This does not need to be a straight buttstock. I just put a Remington BDL stock, which is a monte carlo style, on a Model 70 .375 H&H that had a Super Grade straight stock on it before. By ï¿½straightï¿½ I mean that the drop at comb and drop at heel are the same. The monte carlo has a straight comb parallel with the bore but then drops away from the bore line to the butt. The straight comb of the monte carlo does not whack my face, but the monte carlo design does allow the full height of the recoil pad to nestle into my shoulder pocket. With the straight stock only the bottom half or two thirds of the recoil pad is in full contact with my shoulder. I know folks says a monte carlo exacerbates recoil but I have found this to just not be the case. I fired 95 rounds of full power .375 loads, 270 grainers at 2750 fps, over two day this past weekend, many of them from the bench, and it just didnï¿½t bother me at all. You can see the results of this at 24hourcampfire.com. Go to Hunterï¿½s Campfire and look at the thread Successful Project ï¿½ Winchester Model 70 BDL.

LOP ï¿½ Iï¿½m not sure how this affects recoil perception, but it seems to have something to do with whether you have to crane your neck to look into the scope. My longer M70 stocks at 13 ï¿½ï¿½ seem to jar my head more than my M700 stocks at 13 3/8ï¿½. But LOP is so subjective, I really donï¿½t know how to recommend how to fit this. I stand 5ï¿½11ï¿½, ï¿½huskyï¿½ build (okay, middle age spread build, around 210 pounds) and have just learned from experience that 13 3/8ï¿½ is right for me.

A wide, well rounded comb helps spread the recoil impulse over a broader area of the face. So does a fatter butt pad. I love the way Winchester and Marlin lever actions handle, but those things with their increased drop at heel and thin combs hurt me all out of proportion to the recoil of the little .30-30 cartridge. The most painful rifle I ever shot was a Marlin .444. Felt like I took a left jab to the cheekbone with each shot. In comparison I fired several rounds from a Ruger #1 in .458 Magnum. That one made me take a step back with each shot but the straight comb did not hurt my face at all.

One of the most obvious but overlooked (or rejected) ways to reduce recoil is to simply increase the weight of the rifle. 25 pound bags of shot, etc. are just ways to temporarily increase the mass that the recoil must work against. Reduce the recoil velocity and youï¿½ve tamed the worst part of the beast. My .375 mentioned above weighs 10 lbs. 7 oz with scope. It fires a 270 grian bullet at 2750 fps. It rocks me a little, but it just does not hurt. My .338 M700 with the identically shaped stock only weighs about 8.5 pounds all up, and it slaps me pretty hard firing a 225 grain bullet at 2825 fps. My shoulder really feels it after 20-30 rounds with the .338. I am having a .30-06 made up, another M70 BDL, that should weigh about 8 ï¿½ pounds when done. With 180 grain bullets I donï¿½t expect it to kick any worse than my 7 ï¿½ pound 270 with 130 grainers.

Finally, learn to shoot from the kneeling position. Iï¿½ve found that this allows the upper body to rock and absorb recoil almost as well as shooting from offhand. Very quick to get into place, it is much steadier than offhand and you are higher than sitting. It is my most used field position.