I'm looking at follow up shot times. I think a cock on closing would allow a lot easier opening and closing of the bolt while still shouldered.
Who makes these actions? Anybody?

enfield 1914/1917, though these first mods made to them are cock on open ...

My 300 is cock on closing, any smoothness from opening is lost in the closing.

i dont care for the cock-on-closing.... it makes a normally smooth action feel different... especially when you're fire-forming wildcat cases.....my p17's and p14's have been converted to cock on opening....

Okay, I will be the idiot here, I do not believe I have ever owned a bolt action rifle that did not cock on closing the bolt.

If it only cocks on opening, how the hell do you get the sumbitch ready to fire when you close the bolt?????

Call me ignorant, but I thought all actions based off of the Mauser design cocked on closing.

I'll take a stab at it Crazy: With a cock-on-open Mauser all that it needed to cock the rifle is to raise and lower the bolt handle. The camming action compresses the main spring and sets the sear without withdrawing the bolt. Lifting the bolt takes more initial effort but chambering a round is relatively effortless.

Cock-on-closing requires the bolt to be withdrawn far enough for the cocking piece to engage the sear (about an inch and a half) and the main spring is compressed by pushing the bolt home. So the bolt lift is a little lighter on the latter but chambering a round takes more force. Make sense?

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Okay, I will be the idiot here, I do not believe I have ever owned a bolt action rifle that did not cock on closing the bolt.

If it only cocks on opening, how the hell do you get the sumbitch ready to fire when you close the bolt?????

Because it stays cocked when you close the bolt.

The only difference in the two systems is when internal cocking actually takes place in the bolt stroke. That's all.

C/O/O=
Unlock(cock), extract, eject, feed, load, lock.

C/O/C=
Unlock, extract, eject, feed, load (cock),lock.

All traditional Mauser 98's were typically C/O/O except Swede variants. But, there are a lot of other exceptions.

Enfield's were all typically C/O/C


ChetNC

Thank You Gentlemen. I understand now, and had just never paid that much attention.

But now for another part that is confusing to me.

I have seen this discussed on here before, carrying a loaded gun with the rifle uncocked, instead of cocked and the safety engaged and never really gotten involved, but does the Cock On Opening have any advantage over a Cock On Closing action, except for a situation like that and isn't there a major safety issue involved having the firing pin of an uncocked rifle resting on the primer of a live round?

A-Squares?

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

I have seen this discussed on here before, carrying a loaded gun with the rifle uncocked, instead of cocked and the safety engaged and never really gotten involved, but does the Cock On Opening have any advantage over a Cock On Closing action, except for a situation like that and isn't there a major safety issue involved having the firing pin of an uncocked rifle resting on the primer of a live round?

Crazy:
Man Magnum Magazine (a RSA publication) once had an article about hunting with a live round in the chamber and an "un-cocked" bolt. Apparently, some folks feel that this is more safe than relying on a safety. A quick up and down with the bolt handle will cock the gun, of course.

The article contained a series of tests where rifles so loaded were slammed to the ground, hitting on the butt. If I remember correctly, every one fired when dropped from shoulder level.

Then, the article went on to attempt to explain the death of a famous hunter who was found shot dead by his own rifle (no powder burns), high on a steep hill and the discharged rifle was found fifty yards away. The writer surmized that the hunter (who was known to carry his rifle loaded, but un-cocked, dropped his rifle, it slid down the slope, eventually hit a rock and discharged while pointed up hill and hit the unlucky sucker right between the eyes.

I'm not going to do it, but someone (in a safe manner???) bang the butt of their rifle so loaded on a hard surface and let me know if it goes off? I suggest that you make sure it is pointed in a safe direction when you do it, though!

I can see multiple scenarios where a butt could forcefully hit the ground, such as, dropping one from the back of a safari car, someone stumbling and using the butt to break the fall... ad nausem. It just doesn't seem safe to me.

quote:

but does the Cock On Opening have any advantage over a Cock On Closing action,

No, other way round. In cycling the action in fast shooting with the butt on the shoulder, the cock on closing is easier and faster. Less effort is required to raise the bolt handle (more awkward than closing to begin with because the effort is perpendicular) because only extraction is accomplished rather than extraction and cocking. Cocking the bolt is then much easier because the effort required in closing is pushing in a straight line.

quote:

except for a situation like that and isn't there a major safety issue involved having the firing pin of an uncocked rifle resting on the primer of a live round?

Yes, as Judge covered.

I grew up hunting with a fine .30-06 custom on a 1917 Enfield action by a smith that wisely left the cock on closing feature alone, a rifle that's since been stolen. I've since used a variety of conventional cock on opening bolts. I'm almost exclusively a double rifle guy now, but a I want a nice custom bolt .375. I have another 1917 for that project, chosen for the cock on closing feature. It's just plain slicker and faster.
----------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Everyone keeps forgetting the SMLE...it was considered the fastest firing bolt gun of it's era.

While it isn't, in it's original form, a "big bore", my 458 American SMLE is certainly a "big bore" and you can take it out to 50 cal just as easy.

The P14/P17's wasn't a "big bore" in it's intial caliber size either, neither was the Mauser 98, except in it's commercial form...

But at least those with vision opened up the field considerably.

Luck on your projects.

That article, reminds me of an old friend that dropped a Win model 70 from a deer stand. The rifle hit a large tree root(hickory) and broke the stock at the pistol grip. I had just walked away from the stand when I heard the crash. He cussed and yelled, I got back to the tree before he had climbed down. The rifle safety was in the middle position or half safe, and a round in the chamber, fortunately the rifle did not fire. However it also fell on its side not on either end, ruined the walnut stock, and ruined my friends day . I love model 70 style safeties , but nothing is foolproof.

I have always found the cock on closing to be clumsy to use.I believe all mausers before the 98 were cock on close.

cock on closing actions are faster to manipulate from the shoulder, at least for me.

My favorite of the Mauser types is the Swede 94/96 action, probably because I got interested in them from a collectors standpoint. Right now my go to rifle for short to med range hunting is a Swedish Husqvarna sporter, M 46 in 93x57, a cock on closing action, identical to the military action down to the thumb cut for stripper clip loading, but much lighter and handier than the military models.