I am considering converting a 416 Rigby Ruger to a 450 Rigby or improved version to duplicate the 460 WBY. The Ruger is a really nice gun for the money, but I'd like to have a bigger thumper for my next Tanzania trip. I've always liked the 460 WBY but would much rather have a DGR that holds 4 rounds than 3. I'm considering having Cliff Labounty rebore the Ruger to .458 and doing the chamber work and threading/fitting myself. The reason for this approach is to keep the nice receiver sights on the Ruger, although timing the barrel properly will add to my machining amusement ( been there done that before). I wonder if anyone out there has tried this combo approach and if anyone knows of a .450 Rigby cartridge varient that gives more case capacity, and would fit the action. If this works it would be a real neat project?-Rob

Sorry to question your formulation, but are you sure you want to duplicate 460 wby ballistics? Most field reports indicate declining performance ABOVE 2400 fps, with 2300 to 2400 fps giving optimum performance on game. Penetration has been reported less at 2600 fps than at 2400 fps.

If it were me, I would build a 475 rigby based on a cz550 for 3 rounds down plus one in the chamber. Push that 500 grain slug at 2400 with low pressure and life will be sweet.

The .450 Rigby will not duplicate the Weathery round, nor was it ever meant to. It was designed to propell a 480 grain bullet at around 2,400 fps.

Excuse me Nick, but the .460 Weatherby is nothing more than a .450 Rigby with a belt. When Roy went looking for the biggest and baddest, he chose the .416 Rigby case, belted and venturied it, necked it down the .378 (and up to .458) and put in more powder. The loading data for the .450 Rigby, the .450 Dakota and the .460 Wby are identical. If you insist on blowing a lot of powder out the barrel, just put more in. It will fit. However, 500 gr is right on. The added powder, muzzle blast, velocity and recoil are a complete waste. My .450 Rigby knocks a buffalo DOWN. How much more performance do you think you need? Class III will kill anything that ever walked. Class IV is for showing off with.

Grouch, grouch, grouch,
Sarge

Robgunbuilder,

Do not waste your time with a .458 go all out and rebore and chamber the 500 A-Square. Then you can launch 600 grain slugs at 2400 fps and not violate that muzzle velocity cardinal rule.

Todd E

Actually, I agree with the 500 A2 suggestion unless the customer does not want a belt on his cartridge. Then the 500 Jeff, .510 x 505 Gibbs, or 475 Rigby are the way to go.

Of course all of this discussion is academic for real men who shoot a .585 nyati. ;-)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Hi Robgunbuilder,
I think I've been where your wanting to go. Check out my website at www.470mbogo.com and go through the From Start to Finish portion.
It leads to a fully used 416 Rigby brass necked to .475 and 500 grain bullets loaded to 2500 fps with moderate pressures. I keep hearing people say 2300 to 2400 fps and things go downhill fron there but don't believe it.These stories may have merit back when good bullets weren't around but with todays soft points and solids it's a whole new game. A 600 grain bullet at 2400 is a hard gun to shoot and follow up with due to recoil. Stay with 500 grain bullets for shootability. I've done a lot of testing and will be doing a bunch more that I'll post on my website that deals with penetration of solids at different velocities. I only have three varieties of 500 grain solids at the moment but they are all good ones. Twenty three hundred fps is definitely enough but if you want more have at it, but stay with the 500 grain bullets. You really don't need more weight than that. 470 Mbogo

Ditto for everything Oldsarge said on this matter.I personally like the 460 wby as I have no problem with the belt,as so many seem to.Brass is a bit easier to come by.But I load down to about 2400 f.p.s. with 500 gr. due to what I perceive as several advantages with no disadvantages since I can't imagine what more force is actually needed for.That's my 2 cents worth on the subject.

470 Mbogo-I Really liked your web site and the info contained there. Very Very informative.I think we are on exactly the same wavelength. The only reason to go with a 450 Rigby would be that I already have a reamer. I wonder if you would permit JGS to make me a copy of your reamer? I am also interested in the pilot extension used to avoid the chattering problem. I was just going to face-off the chamber a thread or two ,re-establish a new properly indexed shoulder and run in the reamer slowly and with lots of lube. Did you run into problems with this approach? -Rob

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Hi Robgunbuilder,
If you would like to order a reamer from JGS feel free to do so. You could ask them to make the pilot longer. Bill Crosby the gunsmith that I used lost a little sleep over it but being that he is very talented he sorted it out. He didn't want to change anything with the barrel length because of the quarter rib. I think he made a device to hold the reamer so that he could dead center the exsisting chamber and dead center the reamer and then bring them together slowly with lots of oil until the pilot engaged the rifiling. After talking about it for a while the solution was to order a reamer with a longer pilot at .466 to center and guide the reamer before it touched the exsisting Rigby chamber. Brass for this cartridge is available through Mast Technologies as 416 Rigby cylindrical w/o headstamp. One pass through the full length sizer die and trim to length makes it ready to shoot. I have a press for headstamping the brass while it is still in the cylindrical shape. There is one picture on the website that has the 416 Rigby , 450 Rigby and the 470 Mbogo together that covers all the ideas you've been thinking of. Just click on any of the pictures to enlarge them and have a description of the photo. 470 Mbogo

Excuse me Old Sarge:

Re: .450 Rigby
Posted by DJM on April 09, 192001 at 02:28:17:
In Reply to: .450 Rigby posted by Jerry on April 08, 192001 at 21:03:33:
Comments:: The .450 Rigby was designed by Paul Roberts, former MD of Rigby's about 1993. I remember first reading about it in 1994. The 450 Rigby is basically a 416 Rigby that has been blown out but shortened as well. It was designed not to achieve the power of the 460 Weatherby but to push a 480 grain bullet to about 2400 fps. I have never seen reloading data for this round so you will probably have to buy the QuickLOAD software (from NECO) and figure it out for yourself. Working pressure is much lower than that of the 460 but I cannot recall what it might be. Seems like you ought to be able to write the new Rigby company in the US to find out more.

Note the words "shortened as well". The .460 Weatherby is not the .450 Rigby with a belt.
The Rigby, by design, has less powder capacity and lower design pressure.

Nickudu,

The Clymer reamer specification show the 450 Rigby to be an improved 416 Rigby. However there are some mistakes on their site, so this is not guaranteed.

However I think it would be logically an improved 416 to get maximum shoulder when necked up to 458.

Mike

Mike375,
I have no cases in hand so I must defer to the person who actually owns one! I found 3 sources that list the overall length at anywhere from 2.4" to the normal 2.90" so I sure can't argue the point. There was a ".450 Rigby Match" listed, whatever that is, and this is perhaps the cause of the confusion as it has a listed overall length of 2.4". Scarce data. What has me going is that I have never known "DJM" to have anything but solid information.
Anywho ... This is a great looking round.
I came real close to building one last year but got sideways with the .505 project.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nickudu:
Hi Nick,
I have some fired 416 and 450 Rigby brass as well as a 460 Weatherby brass. The exterior measurements are as follows:
AOL of brass/ 416 450 460
2.88 2.88 2.90

Base of case to shoulder:
416 450 460
2.366 2.346 2.376
Across the web:
416 450 460
.589 .587 .579
Across the shoulder:
416 450 460
.540 .572 .556
I hope this posts in columns. When you put the three cases together the 450 Rigby and the 460 Weatherby look like twins except for the shoulder angles. I hope this helps. 470 Mbogo
Oh well the measurements left to right are for the 416, 450 and the 460 in order.

[This message has been edited by 470 Mbogo (edited 08-31-2001).]

Mbogo 470,
Thank you for the data.
So it appears "DJM" was correct in saying it was shortened, however slightly.
I read that, initially, Rigby planned to use the .450 in their doubles AND turnbolts, at a velocity of 2,350 fps with the 480 grain bullet. This would support that they did envision somewhat lower working pressures than those the .460. One wonders if the case design strength is equal or not.

I have a case volume of 140 grains of water for the .460 Weatherby. I wonder if you could do a proper comparative test on your .450 Rigby casing? I would like to know how they actually do compare in this regard.

Thanks! Nick

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nickudu:
Hi Nick,
The 450 Rigby brass that I have holds 140.5 grains of water to the point of flood. I would think that they justimproved the 416 Rigby case and necked it to 458 as it has the same shoulder angle also. To look at the two that's the way it appears. 470 Mbogo

Interesting thoughts on case strength.I had a conversation with the techns at Sierra about the 450 Rigby at 460 wby pressures idea. They strongly suggested that I use 460 wby cases and turn off the belt. They were very hesitant about the use of Bell or Norma .416 cases at .416 WBY velocities. I produced some of these modified cases and they worked fine. With that said I've also pushed some Bell cases to 2700+ fps with no awful pressure signs.

470 MBOGO- Thanks for the great idea! I'm going to talk to JGS and order a reamer for this project. By the way, How long did it take Cliff Labounty to rebore your barrel? I have one one of JGS's super floating reamer holders and with an extended pilot I think this set-up should work beautifully. Frankly, I would agree with you that with three down in the mag and one in the pipe that this round in the Ruger with a McMillan stock (possibly a folding version to confuse the airport baggage handlers)comes darn close to at least my ideal DGR.I'll keep you posted-Rob

Wonderful technical discussion! This way we are very careful to avoid any mistakes in reloading. Most satisfactory, gentlemen.

I can add that my sheet of reloading data came to me personally from Dakota and is specifically labeled .450 Dakota, .450 Rigby and .460 Weatherby. I load from the low end to avoid loosening my teeth, using up those expensive cases any faster than necessary and making sure that I get no pressure problems in the African heat.

Sure you don't want to build one, Nick?

Sarge

Oldsarge -
Honestly Sarge, I find myself a bit unhappy to hear it has so high a powder capacity.
I had thought it to have somewhat less capacity, in accordance with the 2,350 fps I read about. Just about right for .458 Lott type performance but with lower operating pressures and a surer feeding bottleneck case design. Oh well, I suppose I could always download it!

Some of the posts indicate that increasing the bullet weight to 600grains doesn't buy much. (470 Mbogo) indicated that a 600 grain bullet driven at 2400 fps gives too much recoil for 450 Rigby, 458 Lott, 450 Dak.
Recently, I acquired some 600 grain rounds-Barnes solids for 450 Dak and have shot it. No doubt the recoil increased, but did I gain anything as far as increased knock down potential or is it mostly noise and kick? Basically, it would appear that the greater weight would increase the energy or am I on the wrong track? Time for a 500 or 505??

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paul Machmeier:
Hi Paul,
I was indicationg that a 600 grain bullet at 2400 fps takes a lot longer to recover from the recoil than shooting a 500 grain bullet at 2400 or 2500 fps. I don't think your Dakota would reach 2400 with a 600 grain bullet. If you've chronographed your load and found otherwise please correct me. I just recomend the 500 because it's enough and the shootability is greater. I'm sure a 500 grain Barnes X at 2500 fps will penetrate a Buffalo completely from end to end. With more you'll have to post the area behind the Buffalo your shooting as a no access zone. 470 Mbogo

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Hi Rob,
I talked to Carey at JGS reamers today and he figured that you would have no problem running the reamer with the stock pilot on it. He mentioned that you should run the rpm at 200 and the reamer should not chatter. The biggest problem is when the reamer is at too low a rpm. This is when the reamer could grab rather than cut. If you would loke to talk to him you can reach him at 541-267-4331. You would have to talk to Cliff LaBounty as to time required. I drove my barrel down to him and paid him on the spot so I think he did mine a littl quicker than normal. If your planning on changing the stock anyways why don't you build the gun on a CZ 550 and the McMillan stock with a custom barrel and sights. You could probably buy all the parts for the value of the 416 Ruger. The CZ 550 magazine box fits three down with almost room for a fourth. I think if you could make the magazine box a little bit wider you could get the fourth one down and the fifth up the spout. Just throwing out some ideas. 470 Mbogo

Montana Rifle works cut two triangles out of the sides of my Brno magazine box and Dremeled out the wood of the well just a bit. I now get 4+1 in my .450 Rigby.
Sarge

Nick,
I get 2280 fps behind a 500 gr. Hornady with 105=gr. of IMR 4350. That doesn't quite come up to the base of the neck. JohnS reports that with 98 gr of RL 15 he gets rather over that so you could really down load this baby to whatever you want, depending on which powder you choose. Of course, now that I've GunJuiced the barrel, it may go rather better than that. It certainly groups better, even with the peep and huge white bead. Next time, or the time after that, I'll chrono the bad boy again with the suspician that now I'm over 2300 fps. That means over 6,000 ft. lbs of muzzle energy and that, my friends, is more than plenty. All you happy Class IV shooters can go on and do your thing, but the Old Sarge stops right here, thank you very much!

Sarge

Sarge,
Sounds like you're right about there ... in .458 Lott territory but at a good bit lower pressure. I'd love to be able to compare the operating pressures of these two cartridges at the 2,300+ fps level.
This is the "ideal" balance of velocity, bullet weight and operating pressure I felt this cartridge could provide not realizing, at the time, it would be burning about as much powder as the Weatherby casing.
Now I am thinking the proposed .458 Ultra Mag will offer the < powder capacity I am looking for, in a more available and less expensive case. I may build this rifle next.

The only way to get more "thump" (killing power)over a 458 Lott or Watts or Ackley is to go to a bigger diameter bullet...adding velocity to a 500 gr. 45 cal. bullet beyond 2250 to 2300 fps is a worthless indeavor and if you think it kills better your simply incorrect, or a victim of a few misleading circumstances...want more? go to a 500, want more than that go to a 600....all of them work, but speeding up a bullet to beyond 2400 causes some strange things to happen on ocassions.

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

My beliefs exactly! That's why, if the chrony shows I'm beyond 2300 fps, I'm cutting back the load. Without wanting to sound like a broken record (for those who remember such things) 6,000 ft. lbs. will stop a charging blue whale, if such a thing ever happened. It would put a sauropod onto the barbie. Anything beyond that is showing off. Now for those of you who like to show off, have fun, but the Old Sarge stops right here.

470 MBOGO-It is really refreshing to listen to everyone here. I think I can summarize this by saying that probably the best approach would be as you have described a larger diameter bullet .475,.505 etc at 2300-2400 fps. Its interesting that my 460 WBY does this with total ease(550grwoodleighs) with the accubrake and at least in my opinion has much less felt recoil than my unbraked hot loaded .416 Rigby. I also agree that the simplest thing would be to use a CZ550 action, get a barrel in .475 and cut a new chamber, thread and fit express sights. The Mcmillan stock is also the way to go. Is this a custom order stock? I hate to wait 4 months for one. Who makes a good barrel in .475? I know douglas will make them, but and other suggestions? I also like stainless steel over crome-moly especially since the gun will be matte finished. I plan to order a reamer next week for your creation. Thanks-Rob

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Robgunbuilder,
I've used Pac-Nor barrels for all of my big bores and found them to be very good. There's a link to Pac-Nor's site on my website. You can find McMillan stocks at www.mcmfamily.com then go to custom stocks and scroll down to the Express stock. Call them or e-mail them to find out the delivery time. I'm interested in this stock also. I would like to try making the magazine box about 40 thousandths wider and see if four cartridges would fit in the magazine box. Interesting the way they did Sarges by cutting out the exsisting box but I think I would like to just widen the box. 470 Mbogo

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Atkinson:
Hi Ray

. but speeding up a bullet to beyond 2400 causes some strange things to happen on ocassions.
Details please with todays bullets.
470 Mbogo

470 Mbogo,
What do you consider to be the perfect sectional density in #'s based on your experience? I read your post about the 560 grain FN having what you considered to be too much penetration. You are correct that if a 500 grain bullet will completely pass through an animal, using a 560 grain bullet would be ridiculous for a number of reasons.
Todd

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Boltgun:
Hi Todd,
You've asked the million dollar question. The problem is it has so many variables to consider. If you have good penetration with lets say a .458/500 grain bullet that has a sectional density of .341 travelling at 2150 fps. You will probably get very close to the same penetration by shooting a 450 grain bullet of the same type with a sectional density of .306 at 2250 fps. Both are enough.For instance the 525 grain bullet for the 505 Gibbs has a sectional density of .288 but the velocity is enough to give good penetration as it's reputation has proven. The shape of the solid seems to make a difference in the depth of penetration given bullets of the same sectional density. One reason the .458 caliber is so popular is that the 500 grain bullet has the highest sectional density of all the bullets listed in the Barnes catalog at.341. The 500 grain .475 bullet has a sectional density of.317 which is one of the other reasons that I chose 2500 fps as a goal so that the penetration would be very good. The 560 grain bullet by GS Custom has a sectional density of .356 which is very very good and is only reached by custom bullet manufacturers as extra heavy for caliber. I've ordered some different 500 grain solids as well as these560 grain solids to do penetration tests out of curiosity. So when I get back from my hunting trip at the end of September I'll be able to tell you what the real difference is. Personally I think the sectional density and velocity issues are surpassed by good bullet construction and most important is bullet placement. Shoot the biggest gun you can shoot well and your going to win. Did you find those Geese? 470 Mbogo