Has anybody seen or done a big bore on a Greener GP shotgun action? I saw an old Gun Digest article on sporting Martini actions that said that the GP would take the old nitro expresses. If I could find one, it might make a fun project to put together a single shot big bore. Bob

Bob--There is a whole bunch of us that want to get them, to use for the 12GA From Hell barrels a few of us are going to get.The picture that was posted shows they may be big enough..Australia is where some say there is
a few BPs.We need the measurements and barrel diameter thread, if you have that info.Or any one else with info on sizes and who to but from.Ed.

Ed, I found a source for the 14 ga. Greener military police model. However, I understand it has a special 3 piece firing pin. Any Greener experts out there know if that would make this action useless for a conversion?

I have a Greener barreled action in .577 3" that I started many years ago. I would be more than happy to disccuss it with anyone interested.

hubel458,
In Australia, quite a few Greener GP Actions were made into 12 Gauge Rifles by rebarreling them
and they are deadly accurate. Some people used Nitro Powder in them.
They turn up at the Big Game Rifle Club when we have our Bore Gun shoots.
I haven't seen too many around for sale.
500 Nitro

bobc,
Yeah, I got that catalog, too. Too many guns, too little money . . . especially if you want to go huntin' and use'm, too. Still, a 12 bore rifle, either for BP or Nitro would be an interestin' project. It'd take anything in North/South America, Europe or Australia. I understand that they were even, on occasion, used for DG in Africa, especially if the shooter didn't have any choice! Yo, ALF, what is your understandin' of the matter . . . and of the possibilities.

CongoMike-- Is it finished to be able to be fired.Do you know the barrel thread diameter?
Also how wide is the front of the action?Will it stand regular 577 medium pressure(30-35,000 psi)
loads?Ed.

Funny you mention this, I was just at my local smith's shop and we where discussing Martinis. He then pulled out 2 Greener GP actions, I thought about buying one for a .45-90. I will go and check them out more thoroughly this week and see if I can answer some of your questions. If someone is then inclined to buy one I will see what I can do, since he and I had no idea what they are even worth.

DanD--If they are big enough we are interested.
Marrakai from Australia said they sold there for
350-400 Ozzie dollars. About 225-250 US.I think that price is whole rifle.Please get measurements of action size,thickness,and barrel thread dia.
Here is picture he posted of his...Ed.

i used one about ten years ago to make a guy a 45 colt rifle. it worked out real well. it had that goofy pronged firing pin to keep the natives from firing traditional ammo. i don't recall any great hassle in converting it to a centerfire. this is from memory.

Thanks for tossing that up, Ed. I had a good hard look at my GP and would conclude that the side-walls of the action are probably too thin for the 12GFH, and its doubtful whether the long shell would get down into the chamber. I will post dimensions soon if no-one else beats me to it.

The GP action would probably be fine for 'nitro-for-black' pressures, such as the .577 x 2 3/4 (my favourite cartridge at the moment!), or some of the shorter bottle-neck .450s such as the .500/.450 No.1.

Beefed-up 12-bore rifle cartridges would also be good as 500 Nitro mentioned. Brass cases would be an option if you were to cut your own chamber in a rifled barrel. For this purpose, the ER Shaw tubes would be ideal at around a hundred bucks each.

Marrakai-BobC--all--The 12GA from Hell as Rob and
I developed and built it is really heavy duty.
Much more so than regular manufactured brass 12 ga
cases.This fact alone gives a regular thickness
12 ga barrel a boost in allowable pressures, compared to plastic cases.About 5000 psi more.
Now if the Greener had a barrel thread of say,
1.20 inches and you put in a barrel like Rob will
order for us, you could run 30-35,000 psi fine.
Also some of the doubles we talked about on the other thread would be capable of those pressures also if they have room to put on a barrel that
would be say 1.33 in diameter at breech, either a solid barrel or barrel and mono-block together.
But in all of this the muzzle must have about 1.2 in diameter to run 30-35,000.Ed.

Gentlemen,

After reading this, I went to look at my collection of old guns, and found TWO Greener GP 12 gauge shotguns.

I might try to do something with them one day.

Saeed the Lucky--I have folks getting me info on the action size and barrel threads,and they might work.I sure hope so as they are a beautiful looking style
of gun.

If we figure out that the Greener would work for 12Ga FH at moderate 30-35000 psi
pressures, would you join in getting barrels.
You and Walter you can build your own slugs.Ed.

I've got to go back and look for that catalog . . . or do a search for Greener GP's. I've been thinking of a vintage single shot to go along with a proposed Pedersoli/McKool hammered double .450 #2. Wouldn't one of those go great in .303 Brit or 400/350? Damn! Another Perfect African Pair to drive me crazy . . .er!

I found one of these actions on Gunbroker and bought it for $150. I am interested to see if I can stuff a Big cartridge down it. Did anybody find out what the tread dimensions are on these? Mine sounds like it was a 14 ga gun as it supposedly won't chamber a std 12 ga. What's the story on the firing pin?-Rob

Rob--That is a great price.I been checking
that site and Auctionarms also, but no luck yet.
Also have info coming on a Clark falling block
also.If these Greeners would work, it appears they are around and will
come out of the woodwork;or vault so to speak.
The great thing in our favor, is brass
is easy to get, and after rim is put on it is still super strong.So the case will do its part
so to speak in safe load developement.. Ed.

Robgunbuilder:
Sounds like you got the police model. It had a couple of modifications to prevent its use if it 'fell into the wrong hands'! The cartridge is a brass shell with a 12-bore base and a slight 'bottleneck' down to maybe 14 ga so that a standard 12ga cartridge won't fit. The second modification is the deep groove around the primer, which accepts the 'prongs' in order for the firing pin to reach the primer. Again, ordinary 12-bore ammo can't be fired. Easy enough to modify as hm2 says.

Not all GPs are the police model, in fact it is a bit rare in Australia and commands a premium, as do the take-down versions. Having said that, I paid 350 AUD for my take-down a couple of years ago, and there is one advertised in the current edition of the 'comic book' for 475 AUD. These are whole gun prices.

Oldsarge, you would probably be better off with the Martini-Henry or Martini-Enfield action for the cartridges you mention. They are more robust actions, but only the GP is wide enough for the 12-bore family of cartridges.

I'd better go open the safe and start measuring!

Ok got to my smith's today and looked at the actions. They are not the police issued ones with the pronged firing pin, and they are in pretty good over all condition. Measurements are:
Length: 4 11/16in
Height: 2 3/8in
Width across breach: 1 1/4in
Thread diameter 1 1/16 - 1.062 @ 14TPI
I don't think feeding would be a problem, I was able to fit a fired 3-1/2 shell in. Of course one could always open up the spoon slightly. But I think they might be a bit to skinny for the barrels you guys wish to use.
I had him put them on hold for me just in case, so if anyone is intrested they are $149, email me at ddupre@t-e.com and I will send you his contact info.

Dan--Thanks for info.Very interesting.That is a good price.

Dan-Rob-- All --The fact that they handle 3.5 in fired case; means good possibility
length can be made to work. They are not wide enough---But with all the innerds,
my hotshot machinest buddy says we can do one that is wide enough,with pin area beefed up,
with big enough threads for the barrels Rob and us are getting.A lot easier he says
than scaling up a falling block and building all the parts..Just build outside of action, and put stuff back in.I know I am crazy, but may be willing to try..Ed.

Ed, you're crazy all right, but that's a bloody good idea! I have visions of the original action with the front bit milled off, acting as a 'drop-lock' (a la Westley Richards) in your oversize action! Should be a hoot!

BTW, you will have to make the stock out of depleted uranium to come anywhere near taming the recoil of the 12GAFH!

We have talked quite a bit about just scaling up a receiver and putting the rest of the parts back in. A Greener GP scaled up, receiver ought to be pretty simple to make and have properly hardened from 4140CM. I think that's an excellent approach given the small barrel threads. I own a complete set of machinists drawings for the Win High Wall and scaling it up is pretty straightforeward. The only major issue is the slotting operation as far as I can tell.-Rob

[ 08-21-2003, 06:18: Message edited by: Robgunbuilder ]

Rob--I really hope you do build a big Highwall.
If it is fairly easy, may work out to be suitable for other big cases, you, I, and others are developing..Machinest buddy and I looked at three photos of a Greener up close and dismantled, on Auction arms, a fellow is selling.And a bunch of line drawings on Martini actions.We have the plans already to do what is needed to make new action with big threads,about 1.75 in width, with heavier back boss, little over twice as thick walls,beefed up pin.
Will be getting one from DanD's
gunshop friend, for a model and inner parts.Ed.

Glad I could help Ed, I only have one slight request for a finder's fee- I don't have to shoot it

Ed, weren't you talking about a 1 1/2" barrel thread? If your reciever is 1.75", then wouldn't 1/8" per side be a bit on the thin side? I haven't sat down to do the math on any of this yet. The barrel should take care of any radial pressure, so would the action threads just have to resist the bolt thrust? With maybe a little tourqe or yaw thrown in? Or are you thinking about going with a smaller barrel thread? Maybe 1 1/4" if the pressure was kept lower. What is a common barrel shank length for 50BMG? A longer shank should add to the rigidity of the gun and I don't think weight saveings is a primary concern here. Maybe 1.75 to 2" shank?

Lar--The thread will be about 1.35, leaving
.150 of barrel to shoulder up to action.
That leaves .200 of action metal around barrel.
We will start out with a 2 in steel block and mill down after threading and milling insides. See how it looks and if it appears more is needed,we will leave it thicker.Another real nice feature of this type of action is the buttstock
FITS IN A SOCKET,Build socket bigger to match new thickness, with huge though-bolt(Need extra wt)......NO GRIP SPLITTING.The thicker action will handle same pressures as bolt action,as far
as reciever ring is concerned,up to point that extraction is harder do to the type of action this is.It may take 50k and kick them out.Rob
and I have the brass heavy enough to do its part,
developement and safety wise.Ed.

Lar--The barrel threads on Greener are about .700
long.We will go a 1.5 inches long.Also will leave front of action straight down and thread below barrel for a heavy rod to mount forearm on.Will
add wt and glass on forearm.Use a barrel band
to lock it all together.There really is the
possibility that built heavy, it may take more
than 35k, with the strong brass.Figure on about 25 lbs to take the recoil..Ed.

To be legal to hunt with in Idaho, the gun must weigh less than 16lb. I'm working on a 22 Hornet falling block of my own design for my 4yo son Erin's first rifle. The only thing I won't be makeing from scratch is the barrel. If this one turns out well, I'll scale it up a bit and try again. The complete action with springs, pins and screws should come out to 22 parts.

Lar-Good work with your design, only 22 parts.
If we had to keep the 12GA FH, 700HE, 700 BMG
Imp, etc down to 16 lbs, it might hurt.
Big Al tells me of a fellow in CO who scaled up a
Ruger #1 for a 4-Bore.really must have been wide.

Another reason to try the Greener is they built Martinis in middle east with no power,
hand tools, hand drills, and files.Vertical mills, lathes,drill press, grinders makes it easy.
Falling blocks , break actions,and Greeners are old fashioned but I like them.Ed.
really like them.

I recalled seeing these for sale in Melbourne earlier this year. Pretty flash pair of Greeners.

http://www.mcdonaldsgunshop.com/rifles/greener5.htm

RJW

RJW-Those are the most beautiful guns around.
Need to win the lottery.And I have seen beautiful
Martinis that my gunsmith friend Bob Snapp made,
that were tops in the Gunmakers Guild.What goose guns those would be.They have style without being
overdone.Ed.

I've just finished completely disassembling a greener 14 Ga action. One thing for sure, for the 12 Ga FH, a new receiver will definately need to be made, although the guts would be fine for a 35Kpsi load! The two outer holes in the breechblock must be plugged and a new firing pin assembly fabricated.
The one thing that I'm puzzeled by is exactly how to make the half round cut in the inside back of the action which allows the breechblock to pivot. I think this could be done by holding the action on a Lathe faceplate with the action centered on the breechblock pin holes, then reaching in with a offset boring bar or groove cutting tool( with as little overhang as possible). Then traversing. Anybody have any better ideas?-rob.

[ 08-26-2003, 09:17: Message edited by: Robgunbuilder ]

Rob-Haven't got one here yet.To do that machining accurate you will probably have to do it the way you describe..But looking at Martini
diagram I had nutty idea.Maybe build breechblock
with two lugs on front, sticking out on sides, that would go into recesses built
in the heavier reciever sidewalls we build.Have
them set about 5 deg angle to the vertical,Lock up like bolt action, but easy to build.Build back pin heavy.Take 60k then.What do you think of that
pair in picture above?..ED.

I do have a Greener GP .45-70 converted from 12-gauge. It actually is my BP match rifle, kept the takedown barrel feature. I'm also thinking of a 500/450 #2 musket barrel for it. I bought it as a shotgun for a song, and then added some nice wood, a new barrel - just kept the action. Of course, being a match rifle, she comes close to 12 lbs.... Still, if I want to, I remove the rifle barrel, swap extractors, and I have a 12-gauge shotgun ready! Makes a nice rifle, and she's as strong as any Martini. MAybe not the most elegant, but very rugged and troublefree.

RJW,
Oh mercy! I'd prefer the forend in ebony and the butt and grip caps in steel, but if someone's Rich Great-Uncle Sydney just happened to decide to give them to me, I'd likely fall down slobbering with gratitude. 12-bore rifles on Martini actions . . . ohmahgawd!

I've got one made up in 375 Winchester.Nice gun,but with no scope or sling it weights 10 1/2 pounds.

I plan on sticking a small scope on it and working up some loads for it this winter with with Speer 235 grain semi-spitzer.Ought to make a good timber gun for deer and black bear.

Brian.

Brian--How long is the barrel?Do you have a picture?
MartiniBelgiun--How does it do in matches. Do you have picture?
Sarge-- They sure are nice, for sure.We need
a lot more of them rigged up for big bore rifles and 12 ga.In original action sidewall thickness
they would work for all the NE calibers.Ed.

I'll root around for a pic - it had a half-octagon, half round Snover barrel, Metford segmental rifling, aperture front and tang rear sight. She does quite nicely, thank you - a good load will plunk 10 shots in a ragged hole from the bench at 100m. I probably will take her to Bisley for the mid-range vintage rifle matches, to see how she will do at longer ranges.

By the way, most stress in the Martini action is not on the pin - the receiver recess and the rounded rear and of the received take most stresses. Actually, for a modern martini action, copy the Large-action Francotte - just like the cadet (which is the Francotte patent), but larger. Makes for a nice rifle indeed! I have to Westley- Richard ZAR rifles in 577-450 on this action - definitely the ultimate in Martini's!

O.K., gunsmiths all, tell me . . . in de Haas' Single Shot Rifles and Actions he writes somewhere about assembling an action from plates with (I think) silver solder. Given that that was back in '67 and that there are much stronger bonding agents available today, could (note the hypothetical) a home handyman without a Bridgeport mill build his own "Workingstiff-Martini" in a low-pressure NE or gauge rifle? Hmmm?