A fellow rifle looney was having trouble subtracting on the other thread, so I thought I would exit the highjacked ".416 Rigby POS" joke thread to correct his math.

.375 RUM RIM
rim diameter = 0.534" nominal, not 0.532" of .375 H&H ... actual brass rims measured by me: 0.533" to 0.535" ... accepted rim diameter for real: 0.534"

.375 RUM Base Diameter
Nominal (COTW): 0.550" ... new unfired brass measured by me: 0.548" ... Clymer chamber reamer base diameter: 0.5510" ... acceptable real life reloaded ammo worst case scenario base diameter: 0.550" ... average base diameter in real life: 0.549"

Real life rebate of the .375 RUM:
0.549" - 0.534" = 0.015"

This is totally unacceptable for a DGR.
Harald Wolf and Tony Sanchez-Arino took the rebate out of the .500 Jeffery for their new rifles.

AHR also improved the .500 Jeffery with one of the features being elimination of rebated rim for the .500 AHR.

Any rebate at all is stupid in a DGR.
If the .375 RUM is to be used for varmints only, well then it is an O.K. cartridge. I suggest it be used for barking squirrels, but don't eat those squirrel brains if you find any still attached to whats left of the squirrel.

I don't buy your notion that a rebate of one and one half hundreths of an inch is unacceptable in a rifle with a properly set up magazine and feed rails .

While we do know that the 500 Jeffrey is unacceptable in a staggered feed magazine, the rebate is vastly greater than an RUM case .

Like it or not, to eliminate any possible toe hold for Murphy is the idea. End of story.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Like it or not, to eliminate any possible toe hold for Murphy is the idea. End of story.

Yes, is not the "National Geografic's Channel" wonderful? Now, THAT is safe!

Confronting DG, what is going to keep You alive is not the rifle in Your hands, but the activity between your ears. Even the most reliable CFR can jam if you do something stupid.

I am not trying to make you look bad, RIP, and I do follow your mind, but most people who hunt DG does it one or two times in their life. With a PH looking over their shoulder. We can not compare this with the needs of men like John Taylor.

Sorry Bent, but you are just making yourself look confused. Not my bad, just the facts.

Boil and bubble, toil and trouble ...

quote:

Originally posted by sdgunslinger:

While we do know that the 500 Jeffrey is unacceptable in a staggered feed magazine,.. .

It is only unacceptable when set up by an incompetent gunsmith. There are a number of gunsmiths who specialize in getting the 500 Jeff to feed perfectly. For example, Duane Wiebe, Ryan Breeding, Trevor Proctor, Dennis Olson. A 500 Jeff built by one of these men will outperform a .375 H&H built by a mere mortal man.

.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
RIP:

The 404 Jeffery originally was also rebated right up to 1970 when both Norma and ICI Metals changed the rim and base dimensions.

This makes one of the worlds most used African DG and big game cartridge then also rebated and no good ...... what say ye now?

I say thanks for the date when the error was corrected. That little rebate was less than what we are talking about here, and it still needed correcting.

Making things less fussy is the key. Going to a rim to base exactly matching (0.542") was an easy correction of this glaring fault of the old .404 Jeffery that has since been reborn into unquestioned preeminence.

Any smith can get a .404 Jeffery to work properly now in a CZ box or an M70RUM box.

No special high dollar magic is required any more.

The old rebated .404 Jeffery was skating on thin ice, with Murphy kept at bay by careful gunsmithing.

The .404 Jeffery is better than ever.

Thanks for helping to make this point Alf.
The only .404 Jeffery problem was recognized and corrected.

Worst .404 Jeffery specs of old that I am aware of:

0.544" head
0.537" rim

A-Square still shows a 0.545" head and a 0.543" rim.

All my DWM and Norma brass seems to be around 0.542" for head and rim.

This was at worst only 0.007" rebate, less than half that of the RUM, so you see how it got by until corrected TO ZERO REBATE.

My Dakota cases for the .416 Dakota and .404 Dakota have head and rim equal at 0.545". Saeed's .375/404 started life with necked down .416 Dakota brass, and that is why it is superior to the .375 RUM.

Alf,
Please put me on the subscriber list for any .404 Jeffery publication, please.

Fascinating discussion. Angels on the head of a pin, and all that.

I bought my C&H .404 in 1970, and ALL the .404 Kynoch brass I have on hand was bought as loaded ammo that same year, i.e.: 1970. About eighty rounds are Berdan-primed. Measuring three of these Berdan pre-'70 cases just now showed: base diameters .543, .543, .5425", and rim diameters .540, .541, and .539", for an average pre-1970 "rebate" of .002-.003". That is so small as to almost fall within manufacturing tolerances.

Three Kynoch Boxer-primed cases, also pre-1970 but newer than the Berdan-primed ones, ALL have base diameters of .541", and their rim diameters are .541, .541, and .540". It appears that the BASE diameter was reduced, and the RIM diameter stayed the same in the newer cases! (The boxes for this Boxer-primed .404 ammo were the usual red/yellow 5-rounders, but said "Made in England with Some Swedish Components. Interesting...)

Measuring three new-unfired and un-reformed .375 Ultra Mag cases a few minutes ago, base diameters are .544, .544, and .5445". Rim diameters are .534, .534, and .5335". No matter HOW you do the math, that is still only .010" of "rebate", and that's not enough to bother either my Mauser or me.

I really don't give a hoot what "nominal" specs might be in a book. What matters is the actual cases in my hands and on my bench, and that .550" quoted from COTW isn't even in the ballpark.

However, having gone on record supporting the use of the UM brass in .404s, I'll also say that when hunting time comes the case in my rifle's chamber will read ".404", and NOT ".375 Ultra Mag". I'm fortunate to own plenty of .404 brass for that purpose.

I'll also say that for every .404 round I fire at game, there are several hundred, at least, fired at inanimate targets, usually with cast bullets. Guess what THOSE rounds will read on the headstamp(grin)???

Alf and Rip,
I suggest that you give Tom Burgess an email, he could probably clear up this thread in a hurry....Ya'll are a bit out in left field IMO...

quote:

It is only unacceptable when set up by an incompetent gunsmith. There are a number of gunsmiths who specialize in getting the 500 Jeff to feed perfectly. For example, Duane Wiebe, Ryan Breeding, Trevor Proctor, Dennis Olson. A 500 Jeff built by one of these men will outperform a .375 H&H built by a mere mortal man.

500,

That is all and good....but does not change the cartridge.

You have in reality said the 500 Jeffery is fucked unless a rescue mission can be mounted by Breeding etc.

Mike

Ray,
Alf and I need no help from Mr. Burgess, unless he wishes to add to Alf's database for the historical tome, could probably earn himself a citation as a contributor.

BTW, the Remington RUM brass has struck me as being more variable in dimensions of the head and rim from lot to lot than most other brass. Like maybe the snotnoses are in control of the brass factory too? I cite the actual measured dimensions on my brass, not just COTW, and there are plenty of typo's in other sources too.

Mike378,
Which is worse, the rebate on the .500 Jeffery, or the rebate on the .378 Weatherby?

Well, I have exhausted the facts on this subject, just the facts. I am sure plenty more BS could be flung at the fan though. Boil and bubble, ...

RIP,

As you have heard me say before the Wby Mark V turns all calibres into rebated rims.

But if we just take the calibres themselves then without looking up the dimensions the 378 based calibres have less rebate than the 500 Jeffery....but all the 378 based calibres are rebated.......and the Mark V Wby makes them even more so.

Mike

.

What about the shoulder angles? Were there a couple of different shoulder angles used?

Alf,
By those numbers, maybe we both were out in left field to call the .404 Jeffery rebated in the past and not now, if it has always been only .002" difference until the latest ZERO difference.

I know you are just playing devil's advocate to my righteous indignation over the RUM rebate. BUMMER, that RUM!

Still, Ray should be offered no part of your arse. He has taken your head! And righteously so.

.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
RIP:

If the rim is smaller than the base diameter the rim is rebated even if it is by .002 of an inch ! and if you have an action that is poorly fitted or the cartridge rides out of line on the cartiridge underneath for some reason this may mean that your bolt face may not pick that round up when you cycle the action or it pics the case up by the base and not the rim.

This I have seen on poorly made 404's or on belted cartridges where the bolt pics the case up by the belt..... This leads to a misfeed and Jam. To clear this is sometimes difficult cause when you now pull the bolt back the case does not come back.

If you do not believe me on this I have been caught on video where this has happened to me during a buffalo hunt. That rifle got sold pronto !

The British Standard for cartridges as adopted on a meeting of the Gun and Ammunition Manufacturers on April 02, 1913, accepted the following maximum standard for the 404 Jeffery.

Rim diameter : .543 inches
Base diameter: .545 inches

I am playing both sidea a bit here Alf, and am truly glad to hear you talking this way. That is truly why I don't like the .375 RUM. Always a nagging doubt with even that small rebate.

I am glad to see that the .404 Jeffery rebate was only .002" and not the .007" from some bogus sources that I have read.

My .404 Jeffery brass has ZERO rebate.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike378:

quote:

It is only unacceptable when set up by an incompetent gunsmith. There are a number of gunsmiths who specialize in getting the 500 Jeff to feed perfectly. For example, Duane Wiebe, Ryan Breeding, Trevor Proctor, Dennis Olson. A 500 Jeff built by one of these men will outperform a .375 H&H built by a mere mortal man.

500,

That is all and good....but does not change the cartridge.

You have in reality said the 500 Jeffery is fucked unless a rescue mission can be mounted by Breeding etc.

Mike

Actually, no. I have said that if attention is paid to quality, the .500 jeff works perfectly. Of course if the rifle is made in the Wby or Rem factory, we can assume there will be no quality standards applied and so failure is much more likely. Or if the rifle is made by a hack local gunsmith who does not have the skills or training necessary for big bore DGR work, an abortion is to be expected.

.

Alf,

It is 500 Grains who is saying the 500 is stuffed because it needs special gunsmiths.

As far as I aware the 500s made in Australia work just fine altrhough I think vertical stack is the common way.

500

If Wby made a 500 J there would be no problem because of its extremely simple magazine system. Superior design in my opinion means that low quality control can be applied but the article still function.

The fact that this site contains many Wby Mark Vs but the Gunsmithing or Big Bore forum is not full of posts related to feeding problems illustrates the Mark V's effective design given you have said they are low in quality.

Mike

By the same token , you do not see the gunsmith board full of RUM failures to feed , so a person could assume most of the factory rifles for those cartridges are working pretty good , slight rebated rin not withstanding .

On the other hand , you do see reams of material on M-70 375 H&H rifles that don't feed , and now you are seeing some complaints about CZ as well . Yet the H&H should be the most perfect feeding cartridge in creation........

quote:

Originally posted by Mike378:
Alf,

It is 500 Grains who is saying the 500 is stuffed because it needs special gunsmiths.

Please reread my posts as I did not say the .500 J was stuffed at all. Only incompetent gunsmithing is stuffed, and there is a fair amount of that around.

These kinds of posts give me a good laugh.

.

quote:

Originally posted by sdgunslinger:
By the same token , you do not see the gunsmith board full of RUM failures to feed , so a person could assume most of the factory rifles for those cartridges are working pretty good , slight rebated rin not withstanding .........

That is kind of amazing, isn't it...?

Ron,

I understand you point, but you need to listen to the "reality" of what you are saying

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
This is totally unacceptable for a DGR.
....Any rebate at all is stupid in a DGR.

if rebated by design is bad, how's rebatted by accident?

If ANY rebate is bad, then.. well, we need to pull

EVERYTHING BASED OFF THE 300 OR 375 HH case..

put a caliper on your belted mag cases, fellas, there'll be .002 to .005 rebate

and then the 376 steyr, with it's .006 rebate...

of course, any DECENT smith can get a 500 jeffe to feed... only took me 2 years!!

jeffe

Exellent pointed, Jeffe!

Alf,

Yes, I was aware that Wby was late on the scene.

Actually I prefer to think of it as in line or centre line feed which I guess brings in the rotary nagazines and also lever action rifles.

I think with RIP's grave concern over a few thou of rebate he change all his rifles to in line feeders.

Mike

So after I burn the barrell out of my current M700 .375 RUM, what rifle then?

Should I discount the fact that I have had zero problems with either the feeding or the extracting process for the previous 1000 or so rounds?

You guys kill me!

charles

quote:

Originally posted by ceg1963:
So after I burn the barrell out of my current M700 .375 RUM, what rifle then?

Should I discount the fact that I have had zero problems with either the feeding or the extracting process for the previous 1000 or so rounds?

You guys kill me!

charles

Nah, You're OK. Rebates are only dangerous in Africa.

I guess the 425WR is dead because it's the most(?) rebated case with .072". That and the odd ball bullet dia.

Base .543"
Rim .471"

This is from the Kynoch in my colletion.

Hog Killer

Rebate, my A$$...

I paid $49.99 per 20/box for Remington factory loaded ammo today!!! ( In other words, NO REBATE, SALE, or "deals"... )

I got the last 3 boxes on the shelf at G.I.Joe's.
They've obviously been sitting there for fucking EONS because the ammo looks, well, 'dirty'.
Anyway, I got a line on some powder and primers, so now that I have a total of 100-rnds. of loaded ammo ( read: BRASS ) I can start thinking of reloading equipment for the next project!
Time to find out what the RIFLE feels like when I touch 'er off, dont'cha think?