The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores Controlled round feed vs push feedGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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I've been wanting to ask the braintrust here about this for a while. The difference is obvious, of course. Can anyone explain to me if Controlled round feed really is better? I've seen a few threads on Weatherbys here lately that made me think of it. I would imagine if there were any failures in the field with push-feed the world would know about it. | ||
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I think you will find most people here would rather have CRF dangerous game rifle I know that I would. Are they really better that is both subjective and debatable. Most people who hunt dangerous game are traditionalist at heart and claw extraction and controlled round feed are whats traditional for dangerous game. On a deer rifle no one gives a damn for the most part. B.O.H.I.C.A. | |||
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The most dangerous game of all is man. Almost all great bolt action rifles have some degree of controlled round feed. Yet if you watch Larry Porterfield's video on his build of a DGR he chose a Remington 700 as he valued familiarity with the mechanism better than an 'one off' CRF DGR based on an mechanism..Maurer, Win Model 70..that he had no long acquaintance of. OTOH sometimes..like the engine at the front on early cars as that's where the horses once were..things are done as if by rote instead of by reason. In theory, like Larry Porterfield's ratio, long use of another system may make that one better for you. | |||
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I've had two experiences, one with each. With the pushfeed the shortcoming was that in order to get the extractor to snap over the rim, the bolt needed to be turned to completely closed. My cousin was using my Rem M700 and while unloading it (blind magazine) he cycled the cartridges through the chamber. He was pushing the bolt forward, turning partially down, opening and ejecting the cartridges. the last cartridge went into the chamber but wasn't "grasped" by the extractor, leaving the cartridge in the chamber. Thinking the rifle was empty, he pointed the muzzle into the air and pressed the trigger. Much to his, and everyone in camp's amazement, the rifle fired. the other case involved a M98 Mauser. the extractor had not been modified to snap over the rim of a cartridge that had gone into the chamber ahead of it. the situation developed because the rifle was loaded by placing a cartridge onto the follower, rather than snapping it down into the magazine proper. So when the bolt was pushed forward, the cartridge was pushed into the chamber ahead of the extractor. there was insufficient tolerance to allow the extractor to snap over the rim, so the cartridge was stuck in the chamber with no means of extracting it. A cleaning rod was inserted in the muzzle and used to push the cartridge out. It was then loaded into the magazine and when the bolt picked it up, the cartridge rim slid up against the boltface, behind the extractor and all was right in the world. Fortunately this didn't happen while some upset beast was charging. | |||
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I have used both and had PH's with both. Can't tell any difference honestly, but I have less than confrontations with DG. The PH's I have had are mixed on this - most said they shoot what the have.... | |||
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The only issue that I had with push feeds that would have caused a problem in the field, was short stroking. I pulled the bolt back far enough to eject the empty case but not far enough to get behind the rim of the next loaded round in the magazine. Then when the bolt was pushed forward I closed the bolt on an empty chamber. I haven't been able to do that with my CRF guns. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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Controlled Round Feed is a bit of a misnomer. It really should be Controlled Round When You Change Your Mind. I have cycled many CRFs and many PFs slowly to watch when the cartridge released from the rails and the front 40% of the cartridge in all cases is well inside the chamber area before it releases from the rails. With respect to the negligent discharge of the 700 ADL, that is operator error. The proper way to unload an ADL is to open the bolt and thumb the cartridge out of the magazine. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I was going to bring up M16/M4 rifles shooting full auto in harsh conditions being reliable but realized the human factor wasn't there; short stroking etc. And the extractors on CRF rifles look much larger and beefier. I also get what CHIPKING3220 is saying. I'm kind of that way. Don't deviate much from familiarity. I've seen discussions elsewhere but figured this was the best place to talk about it. | |||
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Joe to your point I grew up shooting sportarized Mausers and 03 Springfields. CRF and claw extraction was the norm for me as a kid. In fairness when I was 17 I would have pissed in a puddle with glee had I been given a push feed Weatherby. As it turned out i did not get my first push feed rifle until I grew up moved out on my own and got my own money. As it stands now the majority of my rifles are CRF habit I guess. I built a 9.3x62 to hunt a leopard some day and opted for a CZ 550 action as a base. On the flip side of that I would love a new Howa mini in 6.5 Grendel but that's not really a leopard rifle is it. B.O.H.I.C.A. | |||
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I don't know how many times I have watched this series, it is very good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?...t=PLAB17E1783D7E567A | |||
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I am considering doing the same thing on a Defiance repeater with integral 1913 rails on the front and back of the action. I prefer pushfeed 700 type rifles. I would not be apposed to building one on a 700. | |||
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In 50 years of shooting and hunting I've personally experienced only 2 failures with bolt actions. One push feed and 1 98 CRF. Neither happened while hunting. Test it at the range, feeding from the magazine while shooting and the chances of having a problem in the field are very minimal with either. I can make virtually any gun jam if I try. | |||
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I disagree. Even the designer admits the design and I as well as countless others have personally witnessed a discharge without a finger being anywhere near the trigger. Further, all one needs to do is "google" Remington 700 trigger ADs or litigation and see just how many are out there. IT is a horrible, "fail on fire" design. 700s were just a lower cost design, with braised on bolt handles, flimsy, sheet metal extractors prone to failure if dusty, and I just can't see how anybody would own a bolt action whose "safety" does not lock the bolt. On PF V CRF action, although I prefer the CRF, as a Weatherby user, I have no issues or concerns with them. USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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When Mauser designed his actions, they were made for surviving and functioning in the worst of environments and working with suspect grade ammo under filthy conditions. When we copied his design in 03, and the Brits in the P14, it was and probably still is, the best and most reliable system for a bolt rifle operated under adverse conditions. The CRF feature is an insurance policy that may never come into play for you, but it is there. Technology improves through the years, and an example would be tires, I have not had a blowout or tire failure in the past twenty years, and while I feel confidant that I could drive across the country without mishap, I would not leave without a spare tire, it is already there and costs nothing, cheap insurance and a little peace of mind! The same, holds true for the CRF, it costs the same to build a DGR on either action, but using a CRF just adds a little insurance that 99% of us will probably never need... but, it is there. All of my DGR's are CRF, but I love Mausers, so they are by default. Honestly, if I were in Africa and my rifles did not make it, I would use a push feed without a second thought, modern guns of quality are damned reliable. That being said, I will stick with the old faithfull. Lee. DRSS(We Band of Bubba's Div.) N.R.A (Life) T.S.R.A (Life) D.S.C. | |||
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Jorge, The text below epitomizes operator error.
He "thought" the rifle was empty. You never just think a gun is empty. You visually inspect the chamber and physically inspect the chamber to confirm it is empty. Additionally, did you read the post because your text: "I disagree. Even the designer admits the design and I as well as countless others have personally witnessed a discharge without a finger being anywhere near the trigger. Further, all one needs to do is "google" Remington 700 trigger ADs or litigation and see just how many are out there. IT is a horrible, "fail on fire" design. 700s were just a lower cost design, with braised on bolt handles, flimsy, sheet metal extractors prone to failure if dusty, and I just can't see how anybody would own a bolt action whose "safety" does not lock the bolt." is off point. The individual purposefully pulled the trigger. This discharge has nothing to do with trigger design. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Completely agree with your corrections. I still wouldn't own a 700 on a dare though  USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Over read, under shot, web warriors. Pick what you like!
OMG!!!!!! | |||
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Consider this; who shoots the most ammunition per year, and needs the most reliability from their small arms of all types? The US Army. What type of feeding mechanism does all it's small arms have? Push feeds on everything up to and including 7.62 machine guns. Push feed bolt actions only malfunction when the operator manipulates it wrongly. So, if you are prone to fail to completely close the bolt before trying to ram in another round, then you might want a controlled round extractor. For everyone else, any type will do. | |||
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Apples and oranges in my opinion, hunting DG and people are entirely two different issues. and I will also add in the case of 700s, their extractors are weak and prone to failure USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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With either type, the shooter has to have some idea how to operate the bolt or it is possible to mess up. A problem is unlikely if the shooter understands how it works and accommodates that. With new shooters, I have seen more of them have trouble with controlled feed, especially if the extractor hasn't been set up to close over a round laying in the magazine well. | |||
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DPCD, Since when did anything the gov. do work!! This is the oldest conversation in gundome other than the 30-06 v. the .270, relms of paper have been wasted on it.. If Im going to hunt DG, I will have a control feed Mauser or Win. pre 64..or a double rifle... I base my decison not on the fact that famous Joe the PH used a Rem. 700 but on what has taken place in my lifetime to make me believe otherwise... It's a choice that each of us has to make for ourselves, based on what we feel is the correct action, and it may change at any time. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Doc, the extractor should not close over the round in the magazine, nor can it do so until the bolt pushes the round up into the bolt face at about half way on the forward travel in most rifles and that is the best timing. All are a push feed for a very short distance.. Where folks get into trouble with any bolt gun is easing a round into the chamber, a bolt should be worked smartly IMO, push feed or control feed...I have seen on occasions folks running and trying to slip a round in the chamber as they ran, and in many cases, always with pushfeeds the round falls out and they close on an empty chamber so when they catch up with old dagga boy, the rifle goes CLICK, Its the loudest click you will ever hear!  Just my two bits and personal opinion only.Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Hi Ray, I didn't explain it very well. I meant that the round is in the magazine well and run into the chamber, not fed up from the magazine below. Some guns, like the current Rugers, will snap over the rim when the bolt is closed. Often older guns (as you know), won't. A Husqvarna/FN I have, doesn't. I haven't wanted to modify it. Just have to remember not to try to feed a round in without pressing into the magazine to feed. | |||
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I've got nothing against push feeds, own and shoot many of them, including the much vilified 700s, but dozens of real world tests by PHs taking the shooting test (timed and accuracy required) have repeatedly shown that the PFs are inferior for that purpose, which is rapid repeat shots under pressure. Does that mean I'd run out and buy a CF if I had a reliable PF in the caliber I wanted to use for DG? Probably not. If I was going to be in that situation on a regular basis, like a PH, probably so. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Pure silliness! Iv'e only got about 30, been shooting them for 40 years. Exactly one broke, now ask me about those Mausers...... Rem 700 extractors are pretty much fool proof......well mostly. But then I don't wear Pith helmets or Puttes either. | |||
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Ok, I'll bite, I'm asking about those Mausers...
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Yeah, I wanta know too! I have been shooting, handloading, and tinkering with guns for over forty years also. I don't know how many Mauser based rifles I have, bit it is a bunch. I have never had a failure of an extractor. Anything can break, no doubt, I have just never seen it and would want to examine it to see if it had been "worked" on. Not doubting you, just curious as to what happened. DRSS(We Band of Bubba's Div.) N.R.A (Life) T.S.R.A (Life) D.S.C. | |||
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I have; I had a hot load in my M70 .416 and the extractor claw "popped" right off the rim. A 700? It will either extract the case, pull the rim apart, or break. Back when I was young and dumb, I loaded stuff way too hot, I had a few that would rip the rim off, but only had one extractor break, and that was on a .223. | |||
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Thanks. I've been fascinated by the Remington extractor issue for years. Don't want to take this discussion off topic though.
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I have a Rem 700 BDL in 270 I bought in the late 60s. Other than having the trigger worked on by Norm Thompson (bless his soul), in the 80s it's been flawless through many years of 50 plus hunting days / year. I too loaded it a tad hot (150g Partitions at 3000 fps out of a 22" barrel) never had an issue. I've backed it off to 2900 fps now that my youngest son has it. I trust that rifle completely. I also have a CZ 550 in 500 Jeffery. It took work by three gunsmiths (not a lot of money but a lot of time), now it feeds, and functions flawlessly. I also trust this rifle implicitly, but it took a lot more work and testing by me as well as the gunsmiths to get it where I needed it. Then again the 500 Jeffery is not an easy cartridge. Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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Gentlemen there is absolutely no way to convince a push feed shooter that there is anything amiss with his choice, and just as the CRF guy will not believe anything better than CRF. I say let them both use what they want, and just laugh when one or the other gets a lesson in reality, and say "TOLD YA SO!" ...................................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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The guy pulled the trigger,..on purpose. That has nothing to do with Remington's trigger problems. Go Duke!! | |||
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Id love a Sako....oh how I enjoy a smooth action. There is one in .416 rem mag for $950 that I have been avoiding...because I'll want it if I hold it again. "Let me start off with two words: Made in America" | |||
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Well I have to say I'm generally a CRF guy. I've owned several mil surp mausers in my youth until I finally bought my first "nice" rifle, a Husqvarna lightweight 06. But I have had one of mine break its extractor. My first rifle was a 93 Spanish Mauser that had been sporterized. I bought some surplus Chilean 7x57mm ammo that was pretty old. One of the rounds must have been double loaded because when it went off the primer pocket was enlarged to about twice. It broke the extractor but I was still able to get the case out of the chamber with some force in the bolt handle. The early Mausers were supposed to be not as strong or able to handle gas as well as the 98's but mine was good enough to protect me from injury. Needless to say I didn't shoot the rest of the ammo I had. I do have a couple m700's, one being my favorite black bear rifle. I haven't ever had a problem with them but if I had my way I would prefer a Mauser or Winchester over any push feed other than a Weatherby. To me they have perfected the pushfeed action like no other brand for reliability. Roger ___________________________ I'm a trophy hunter - until something better comes along. *we band of 45-70ers* | |||
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What the military uses is immaterial. They have armorers ! With the exception of my last M700, a staggered box mag . In 223 . All my other Remington M 700 have fed just great. That 223 was an abomonation. Jamomatic , inaccurate piece of crap. Imo, the emphisis should not be on CRF but rather NRE and FE . Non rotating extractor/extraction . And Fixed Ejector. Rotating extractors are problematic as they can and do cut into and thru the rim of a tight case .As they are all made from tiny spring loaded clips or levers, they are much more fragile than a Mauser style extractor. And plunger ejectors just altogether suck. Also fully encircled bolt faces collect and retain all kind of detretris and are not easily cleaned . By the nature of their design crf bolts clean themselves and in the rare case the debris has really accumulated and perhaps froze onto the bolt face , its very easy to clean off with the tip of a knife and a few blasts of air thru pursed lips. Many/most crf actions have mechanical triggers that are made from a few robust peices of steel and 1 coil spring. Almost all pf actions have triggers that are constructed from multiple small to tiny parts and several small fine springs. Not the kinds of triggers that instill confidence in me any way. Crf actions follow the KISS principle. Pf, well , they should have kept it simple imo. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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Oddly enough crf actions are starting to make head way into the precision rifle arena. With actions like the modern FN, the Bighorn and my favorite high dollar action , the Mausingfield. Plenty of complaints from the precision match shooters of Remington and Savage actions going down mid match. These guys, tho they shoot relatively small cartridges. They tend to load them up to max pressure and shoot fairly high volume round count. At least by bolt rifle standards. An over pressure event is just that . Wether it occured burning 41 grains of 120 gr. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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CTF, Maybe you can expand on your quote below.
because I am not sure of your point. I am not aware of any military combat doctrine that would support deploying troops with an unreliable rifle because: a) we will just notify the enemy that we would like a timeout while the armorer fixes the rifle b) don't worry the soldier next to you will have a working rifle c) even though operational doctrine calls for a two man sniper/observer team its okay to not have the observer because from time he will be focused on fixing broken rifles or d) we will just add a 3rd person (the armorer) to the two man sniper/observer overwatch team to repair the sniper rifle during the time the sniper and observer had to switch roles. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Some arguments I dont agree with: A CRF rifle that doesnt snap the extractor over the rim when push fed is working like it should be. They thighten the grip when the extractor is pushed outwards. Both work when made right. And I have a 700 (walker trigger) peepsight 375, that will shoot the X with no malfunctions or hiccups, forever. My Oberndorf 9.3 will need some willpower and recoil tolerance, but malfunctions are not a problem. The Mauser is cooler. | |||
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The M700 in military service has issues that are historically tolerated. A friend of mine kicked more than one bolt handle off an M40 in Central America in the 1980s because for whatever reason in the heat he was getting sticky cases. | |||
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Out of the 6 Remington M700s & 722 rifles I've had . 2 of them had broken extractors . Out of the more than 25 Ruger bolt action rifles I've had . NONE, ever had any type of problem with the extractor. Nor did any of my crf CZ rifles only 1, 17 Enfield had an extractor problem and that was caused by an incompetent gunsmith. None of the 98 Mausers gave had any extractor problems. Thats over 40 different rifles with only 1 problem . As opposed to 6 rifles , 2 of which had extractor problems. Pretty simple arithmatic. My point with the armorer thing is when a weapon goes down it gets turned in and another issued in its place . Free of charge to the troop. And the public is not made privy to the information. Ganyana had lots of unkind things to say about pf actions and related some of the problems he encountered administering their shooting qualifications. ARs are prone to ripping a hole thru the rim of 5.56 brass during a high pressure / stuck case event. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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