Sitting between the venerable 375 HH and the 458 Win is the .416 diameter.

A 416 in either the new 416 Ruger or the 416 Remington would pretty much split the difference between the 375 HH and the 458 Win. It would provide a little more punch than the 375 and a little more penetration and range than the 458. (The new 416 Ruger price ought to see it adopted by more that one Alaskan PH/outfitter.)

For those that want to have their cake and eat it, there is the 416 Rigby. Handloading provides versatility, range, penetration and power equal to and well beyond either the 458 Win or 375 HH. Most consider the 416s quite easy to shoot, though recoil shouldn't be given much weight or consideration for a hunter's hunting rifle.

It is not for nothing that many have considered the 416 Rigby the greatest one rifle to carry in the bush. Rhymes with Harry Selby, Jack O'Connor was favorably impressed, and at least Elmer would consider it a rifle.

Well - regarding penetration I must admit that Michael458`s test have surprised me and teached me something I didnt know.

As I remember the 400 grs Barnes Banded solid in .416" at 2500 fps muz.vel penetrated to 60 inches in his medium. But about the 458 B&M using the 500 grs Barnes Banded 500 grs he wrote:
The 500 Barnes Banded FN at 1815 fps at the muzzle and 1780 fps at impact once again drilled straight completely through the 62 inches of medium, exiting the back of the box and into the berm behind, not recovered. I was somewhat surprised, I expected it to come up a bit short, but was wrong. I do believe that had velocity been lower it would have stopped in the box, as it was just making it's way through with little disturbance at the end.

So seemingly the 458 B&M (and therefore also the 458 Win - cause they are quite similar) penetrates as well as the 416... Or even better...!!!

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
Sitting between the venerable 375 HH and the 458 Win is the .416 diameter.

A 416 in either the new 416 Ruger or the 416 Remington would pretty much split the difference between the 375 HH and the 458 Win. It would provide a little more punch than the 375 and a little more penetration and range than the 458. (The new 416 Ruger price ought to see it adopted by more that one Alaskan PH/outfitter.)

For those that want to have their cake and eat it, there is the 416 Rigby. Handloading provides versatility, range, penetration and power equal to and well beyond either the 458 Win or 375 HH. Most consider the 416s quite easy to shoot, though recoil shouldn't be given much weight or consideration for a hunter's hunting rifle.

It is not for nothing that many have considered the 416 Rigby the greatest one rifle to carry in the bush. Rhymes with Harry Selby, Jack O'Connor was favorably impressed, and at least Elmer would consider it a rifle.

Not that you are prejudiced to begin with, but it is simple physics.

The 416's are a big, big step up from the 375 H&H or Ruger. They achieve the magical 5,000 ft-lb of energy and the K-O value of 55, which are the minimums for the big and heavy stuff.

The 416's also recoil less than the 458's and its recoil is usually the limit of what most hunters care to suffer.

Not disregarding what some cartridge might do with plywood or phone books, the 416 works well in the field, which is what counts. It wouldn't be my first pick against an irate bull elephant, but short of that it has always got the job done for me.

Yes, I remember Michael's test, too, and would like to see more testing to better understand what is/was going on.
Is it repeatable?
Would the 416 do better if downloaded to 1800fps? (I wouldn't download just to get a couple of inches in Miachael's test medium, since the extra energy would have gone somewhere, like into more massive trauma.)
I think I would probably keep loads up to 2650 fps and 2750 fps for 350 grain.

In general, penetration is a function of bullet design and sectional-density/momentum. The 416 should either out penetrate or fly flatter than the 375s, and for the 458 it certainly flies flatter and can generate 5900 ft lb versus 4900 ft pd energy for trauma/shock/damage.

On the repeatability and comparison of testing, one must remember the recent tests of 430 grain multiple-meplat bullets that only penetrated around 45", though they were .500 cal at 2200fps.

I give up. It is not God after all. It is just all black magic and voodoo.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
Would the 416 do better if downloaded to 1800fps?

To put it short : NO!!
Quite clear that given a good FN solid like the Barnes Banded Solid, increased velocity increases penetration in most cases, to a certain limit at least.. Though it appears that more vel than 2200-2400 f/s is of limited value..

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
Would the 416 do better if downloaded to 1800fps?

To put it short : NO!!
Quite clear that given a good FN solid like the Barnes Banded Solid, increased velocity increases penetration in most cases, to a certain limit at least.. Though it appears that more vel than 2200-2400 f/s is of limited value..

You are confused and do not belong in the Big Bore Forum. It is 416 diameter bullets going 100 ft/s that penetrate the most!

I think I still prefer the 404 Jeffery. It's also a 400 grain bullet in a slightly larger caliber (.423) and while it gives up 100 fps it can also easily be built on a standard Mauser action, by Duane Wiebe at least.

Tanzan

Yes, I am in agreement with you concerning the 416s. A big improvement over anything that says 375 on it, which is merely a medium bore, and really is not in the same class as anything over 40, should not even be mentioned in the same room with anything over 40 to begin with. 375 should be in the same class room as 9.3 and 358 and 338!

I think the 416 is very versatile. Lot's of good ones out there and I have had most of them. Funny thing is, I have not used them nearly as extensively as 458 caliber. I still have doubts as to a 416 being a true big bore too. Yep, it has and can do the job, but something about that extra diameter draws me away from 416 for heavy work, heavy work being hippo/elephant. Even in my little 416 B&M (equal case capacity to 416 Taylor) I can drive 300 Barnes X to over 2600 fps, excellent for plains game work, things like that. Best suited for 350 size bullets to take care of the rest of things. Great thin skinned rifle/cartridge. Can drive 400s to 2250-2300 fps too. Having a choice, I choose for the heavies something with a little more diameter to it.

Now pertaining to the penetration as stated above, I believe it is much more difficult to stabilize a 400 gr 416 in 1:14 than it is a 500 gr 458 in 1:14 twist rates. I have zero issues with a proper flat nose solid at 65% meplat or better being 100% terminally stable. I do have problems getting a 400 gr 65% meplat in 416 terminally stable in 1:14 twist rates in my rifles. I can get them more stable with more velocity, as the test quoted above with pushing the hell out of a 416 Remington and the 400 Barnes Banded at 2497 fps, driving to 60 inches--special note both test bullets were 1 inch off course even then. So they were not 100% stable during penetration.

I built the 416 B&Ms around the 350 gr bullets anyway, for the jobs I would do with it that is plenty of bullet. At 1:14 I get plenty of stability with the 350 Barnes Banded. But if I were building a new 416 anything today, I would at least get the 1:12 twist barrels that are available. 1:10 would be even better! This would sort that stability issue out. Now also remember, the test medium is not animal tissue and the bullet will be more stable in animal tissue than the test medium, therefore better performance. The test medium shows us the worst in any bullet, not the best! So that must be considered. I should put that in BOLD.

There are a few bullets in 458 caliber that really shine, solids that is, I like the 450 and 500 gr Barnes Banded, 450 gr North Forks, and sure the GSC bullets would be in that category too, but just have not tested enough of them, and they are not so available. All have the right size meplat in 458 to do well and even self stabilize themselves. In calibers 458 and up I have noticed it is much easier to get terminal stability as long as the meplat size is correct, and can even be stable in poor twist rates. I don't find that same ease in 416 caliber. I had to drop velocities to 1500 fps with the 500 Barnes Banded to loose stability.

Answer to your question for a 400 416 at 1800---No, stability would not be there, I need more velocity in 1:14 twists in 416, not less, for terminal stability. I also like the 350 bullets, and at 2650 or so, they would be hammers.

As for the meplat test? Only 45"? Not sure what you are trying to compare to? Remember, only 45 inches is still more than enough penetration to do any job required. I would take that same 430 gr 65-70% meplat of caliber .500 solid over any 500 gr 458 caliber RN ever made. In fact that goes for any caliber RN at any weight at any velocity ever made!

The meplat test was just that, a meplat vs meplat and nothing more. Depth of penetration of a particular bullet not to be compared to other bullets. Take that same 430 bullet, add 150 fps to it's velocity and now we are up in the 50+ inches of penetration. I purposely had the velocity at 2200 or slightly less.

Anyway, that's just some of my thoughts on the matter.

Michael

I have a 416 Rem. Mag. It can do all those things with less gr bullets also.

If I only had one big bore rifle to hunt with, it would by my CZ in 450 Dakota. That said, the second choice would be a 416 Rigby.

Rich
DRSS

Boy dumb me…I had a really long post ready to go and decided to trash it and just basically piss some individuals off with a much shorter post.

The .416 caliber (.416 B&M through .416 Rigby) is a great all-around caliber and with the proper bullets will reach out as far as the .375 H&H and kill an elephant as cleanly as the .458 caliber cartridges (.458 B&M through .460 Weatherby). History has proven this, and properly designed 21st century monometal bullets enhance every caliber’s ability to correctly perform against DG.

Regardless of warnings that if you lose your ammunition in transit the Africa that you will never be able to replace your non-commercial ammunition…there is no absolute guarantee that you’ll also easily replace your commercial ammunition should it be lost in transit. However the only way to assure this is for your PH to already have your cartridge on hand or assure that the local firearms/ammunition shop has yours on hand.

I’ll be your rifle, select the cartridge that you desire to use whether it be a commercially available cartridge or a reloading only proposition (even these can be ordered from an ammunition reloading service if you don’t roll your own).

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Boy dumb me…I had a really long post ready to go and decided to trash it and just basically piss some individuals off with a much shorter post.

The .416 caliber (.416 B&M through .416 Rigby) is a great all-around caliber and with the proper bullets will reach out as far as the .375 H&H and kill an elephant as cleanly as the .458 caliber cartridges (.458 B&M through .460 Weatherby). History has proven this, and properly designed 21st century monometal bullets enhance every caliber’s ability to correctly perform against DG.

Regardless of warnings that if you lose your ammunition in transit the Africa that you will never be able to replace your non-commercial ammunition…there is no absolute guarantee that you’ll also easily replace your commercial ammunition should it be lost in transit. However the only way to assure this is for your PH to already have your cartridge on hand or assure that the local firearms/ammunition shop has yours on hand.

I’ll be your rifle, select the cartridge that you desire to use whether it be a commercially available cartridge or a reloading only proposition (even these can be ordered from an ammunition reloading service if you don’t roll your own).

+1

416s are great rounds. No one ever says, "Damn, that 416_XXX did not get the job done!"
They have a history of having a heavy long bullet that penetrates well!

Like he said above, quit worrying! Buy a rifle/round you like and go hunting!

Just my opine!

Bill: You mention the 416 is a great caliber and I agree , I can appreciate your comments on a bigger bore being better suited for elephants, but what is your opinion on the penetration qualities in that regard? from everything I've read, the 416 penetrates better than some larger calibers. thanks, jorge

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
On the repeatability and comparison of testing, one must remember the recent tests of 430 grain multiple-meplat bullets that only penetrated around 45", though they were .500 cal at 2200fps.

416T,

That was the .500” 500gr Sam Long Nose FN solid (.286 SD) that averaged 45” straight line penetration (47” overall penetration). The .500” 430gr Sam Hydro solid (.246 SD) averaged 36” straight line penetration (39.5” overall penetration).

But before dismissing this bullet performance, consider that Mike70560 statistically tracked the performance of the .474” 500gr Woodleigh FMJ solid (.318 SD) bullet which averaged 21.78” of straight line penetration (36.42” overall penetration). This data was reported in the following thread:
http://forums.accuratereloadin...0101804/m/7281027721
Here is the specific excerpt:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
Tonight I will post a proper response to some of the questions although Michael458 does a better job than I do. Here is a spreadsheet of one test that I conducted.

The only thing I do differently now is document the velocity of each bullet as opposed to an average of a group. Velocity +-100 FPS makes very little difference in penetration but I am trying to be more detailed in reporting.

Consider that the .474” 500gr NF FN solid (.318 SD) bullet which averaged 71.8” straight line penetration (71.8” overall penetration).

Also remember, Michael has stated that based upon his field testing and bullet box testing that the same bullet loaded to the same velocity will penetrate approximately 30% greater in the field than in the bullet box.

So in the field this would equal approximately 58” straight-line penetration (61” overall penetration) with the .500” 500gr Sam Long Nose FN, approximately 46” straight line penetration (51” overall penetration) for the .500” 430gr Sam Hydro, approximately 28” of straight line penetration (47” overall penetration) for the .474” 500gr Woodleigh FMJ bullet, and approximately 93” straight line penetration (93” overall penetration) for the .474” 500gr NF FN solid (.318 SD) bullet.

The two .500” Sam bullets were testing nose shape, meplat size, and band size (for decreased pressure) so they are a work in progress.

As a counterpoint, Michael has already reported his standard .500” 510gr SST FN solid (.2xx SD) giving an average of 62” of full straight line penetration in his bullet box at less velocity (using the +30% Michale estimate...this would equate to approximately 80” of straight line penetration in the field vs. the actual 84" in the elephant):


So…as Rusty so succinctly stated, “Quit worrying! Buy a rifle/round you like and go hunting!”

I do not know anyone who has ever purchased a 416 Rigby, taken it to Africa to hunt DG; and regretted it.

Rich
DRSS

Interesting comments, all.

Nor do I have any regrets on going 416. I suppose I was trying to list the reasons that originally led me to getting a 416 Rigby. Yes, I definitately wanted more diameter than a 375, agreeing with Michael.

And my wife and I are scheduled to be in Tanzania Sept-Oct. She hasn't asked for a 500 yet, planning to use our 338. She's not even asking to use our 416. Just sweet and light.

Comparing the 458 and 416 still leaves me with questions. Maybe Michael will test a few more 458s against 416 in equivalent meplat, but differing velocity. In terms of SectionalDens. the 416 in 400 gr is the functional equivalent of the 500 gr 458 (416 is .330, the 458 is .341). But when considering penetration, I still think that a 400 grain FN solid in .416 at 2500-2600 fps muzzle, will out penetrate a 458 at only 2100-2000 fps muzzle. The SD(x)velocity factor is higher in the 416. If meplats, shape, stabiity, bullet-integrity, and SD are equal, the round with the higher velocity should carry the day. It's basic physics. For me to get excited about a 458 or 500 we need to get the velocity up close to the 416 or at least have the energy up there. I'll take a 5900 footlb package (handloaded Rigby) over a 4900 ft lb package, assuming equivalent bullet integrity.

Anyway, that's part of why the 416 is so nice.

After trying out the 458Lott, I went to a 404jeffery. The 42 bores just seem to ahve the right balance of power, flat tracjectory & manageable recoil to make them very good hunting rounds for DG or anything else. Better than a 375h&h for DG but not giving up much the the 458s on DG. JM limited exp.

I own a 416 Rem (mod 70 custom made), 458 Win Mag, 458 Lott, 470 double in relative big bores. If I was not hunting a elephant, the 416 would be on my shoulder. I like all of them! Now if I was able to get within 50 yards of a Buffalo I would like to have the 470 double!

because mediums are easy to shoot

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
when considering penetration, I still think that a 400 grain FN solid in .416 at 2500-2600 fps muzzle, will out penetrate a 458 at only 2100-2000 fps muzzle.

Well so did I think.. But Michael tested this several times as mentioned above. Even with velocity as low as 1700-1800 fps impact the .458 caliber 500 grs Barnes Banded penetrated better than a 400 grs .416 barnes banded at 2400-2500 fps.. And both bullets had a 65% meplat. I cannot explain that, but the 458 penetrated much, much better, especially if you take the very low velocity into consideration..

This is why we need more testing.

There is either something very significant to learn here, on the order of roundnose versus flat, or else there is something to be corrected in the tests.

We need to know what caused the particular result. I can't believe that lower velocity is a good thing in general.

We do see that with expanding bullets at some levels, where the 'explosive effect' of damage and bullet deformation at super velocities slows down the overall penetration.
But with monometal solids there is negligible deformation and the kinetic energy will dissipate into destruction as the momenta are transferred.

So I will continue to load up my 416 to 2650-2700 for 350 grain, and maybe start using some 400s at 2550, now that we know that Flat Nose solids will stay straight beyond arbitrary gyro-formulae (ie. it doesn't need a Miller 2.5 or 3 or whatever.)

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
I can't believe that lower velocity is a good thing in general.

No its not.. The Barnes banded 500 grs in .458 penetrated even further with increased velocity to around 2200 fps in the Lott. And it would likely do even better at increased velocity.. My point was just, that the 500grs Barnes Banded in 458 penetrated better than the .416" 400grs Banded Solid in Micheals tests, even though the velocity was much lower. It would have performed better at increased velocity.

I must admit that the results from Micheals tests surprised me quite a bit as well.. One of my favorite rifles is a CZ550 based 416 Wby with which I have shot multiple buffalo and even rhino. I never had an issue with this caliber, always dependable performance and immense penetration (only using Barnes Banded 400 grs solids and 400 grs TSX bullets both at 2750 fps muzzlevel). But M`s tests are extensive and he has tested the 500 grs Banded Solids in the .458" several times and at several different velocities and they seemingly exceed the performance of the same bullet in 416..

My guess would be that one should remember the possibility of misinterpreting penetration test data.

I would amen Will's comment. With a .330 SD in the .416 400 grain, penetration has got to be spectacular, at least very close to the .341 SD of the 458.

Where did the traditional reputation come from, for the 416 and great penetration? Probably from the increased velocities normally seen in the 416 Rigby over the 458 WinMag.

anyway, this could use some more testing. I don't think that Michael's test are definitive yet on this issue.

quote:

Probably from the increased velocities

Greatly increased penetration, from increased bullet velocity, is what happened in the switch from black powder to Cordite. It made black powder rifles obsolete overnight. It also made the .450 NE famous.

And knowing Michael, he will be more than pleased to do some more shooting, especially if it helps enlighten another facet of terminal ballistics.

Tanzan

Pay Attention!!!! First, by all means you will be just dandy with the 350 at 2650, a hammer and plenty of penetration for 416 anything. I have 416 Rigby in Ruger #1 (TWIST RATE-I forgot). 416 Remington several Winchester M70s, 1:14 twist, 416 B&M Win M70 several, 1:14 Twist.

1:14 just does not quite get 400s-410s 100% stable in 416. I had reasonable success in 416 Remington, with a very heavy load running a 400 Barnes Banded at just a few fps under 2500 fps. I am quite sure this was over max, but it did not stick. Not a regular load for sure. But this gave much better stability than in my 416 B&M at lower velocities it runs with the same bullet. So what we had there was VELOCITY assisting in deeper, more stable penetration, over coming to a point the not so perfect twist rate of 1:14 in 416 caliber.

With 350 Barnes Banded and 370 North Forks I get terminal stability in 1:14. I wish I had known this a few years ago, I would have had 1:12 twist barrels on my 416 B&Ms, even better terminal stability with 350-370, but it would most likely stabilize the 400s too.

More velocity with monos in general means more penetration. With 350s and 370s at 2450 fps in my 416 B&M they will go to 53-57 inches consistently, on occasion when slowing down the last 2 inches will loose stability, but at that point it's really moot anyway! This is more than enough penetration for any mission, elephant, hippo, buffalo. Rule of thumb, add 30% for animal tissue. More velocity that you are talking about will give more stability, and deeper penetration. And on top of it, hit hard up front too.

Now, with that being said, I think that 458 caliber to .510 caliber is a more stable diameter than anything smaller. Logically regardless of Percentage of meplat for caliber, a 65% meplat on a 458 is about .300 caliber---a 65% meplat on 416 caliber is .270 caliber, I believe this can make a difference. A 70% meplat on a 416 is getting closer, and may very well help to stabilize better, but still overall diameter does come into play also.

Faster twist rate for added stability, faster velocity, larger meplat to 70%, and as always proper nose profile, and I think you can easy equal 458 caliber, but I also think it's not just luck that gets you there, have to work at it some. Of course I like 416 a lot, but I like 458 Better, and I like .500 even better than 458, so.............

Michael

Thank you for the response and outlines. I have been following, paying attention.
But there are some inconsistencies that make me think that something else is at play than diameter in your description of 416.

The 6.5 166 grain flat nose went 57" straight. It is gyroscopically unstable. How did it do that? Will it do that again?

I too, would choose 12" twist in 416 if given a choice. But your tests are showing that terminal stability is more dependent on flat nose profile than on gyroscopic stability while flying to the target. Even in calibres alot smaller than 416 or 366.
While some processes in physics cut out and then come back in line at a different point I have a difficult time imagining that bullet diameter is such a scalar. that would be an awesome discovery. It is much easier to think that something else was happening in the .416 tests. (e.g. bore bullet match? actual meplat size [62 or 65?], medium inconsistency, nose shape, metal integrity, etc).
So I have no problem with someone choosing a 500 calibre to walk n the thick stuff, maybe I'll have one someday, but I surely want to know how skinny and medium monometal solids (6.5, 338, 358,366) can pentrate well and then at one point (416) minor instability briefly sets in, only to immediately retreat (458).

While I think that your meplat tests have documented meplat size and fixed 65-70% as optimum for penetration, I am not sure about your 416 tests. Yet.
And 416 is used widely enough to be worthwhile nailing down the diameter part of the equation. It would be quite a discovery. And if it turns out that something else was at work, then that would be a worthwhile discovery.
But after your 577 tests. Those are interesting in their own right if you have the right slingshot.

416T,

Not 1:12" twist rate, instead go 1:10" twist rate...not to fast of a twist rate to cause issues with light weight bullets but will definately help within-mass stability of all bullets at slower velocities.

The 1:10" twist rate is becoming popular in .375 caliber due to length of the heavier monometals. Not that much difference in length of .375 monometals to .416 monometals of same SD.

Your comments on length vs. SD illustrate the stability point. If the SD and the length are the same, then the stability factor of the larger diameter will be greater because stability is affected by the ratio of length to diameter. At the same SD and length, the larger diameter will be more stable.

That is why the 6.5 166 grain solid is such an anomoly. It is way too long for calibre.
So maybe I'll just stick with the 350 grain solids in .416 until we learn more about what is happening. If we learn what makes a 400 grain in .416 tick, then I could take some over the pond.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
Your comments on length vs. SD illustrate the stability point. If the SD and the length are the same, then the stability factor of the larger diameter will be greater because stability is affected by the ratio of length to diameter. At the same SD and length, the larger diameter will be more stable.

That is why the 6.5 166 grain solid is such an anomoly. It is way too long for calibre.
So maybe I'll just stick with the 350 grain solids in .416 until we learn more about what is happening. If we learn what makes a 400 grain in .416 tick, then I could take some over the pond.

Tanzan

I think that might be an excellent statement you made above, what I said, just you said it shorter and better! Jim is right, 1:10 would be excellent. I say 1:12 because that is easily available in 416 and would be enough I think to give "Terminal Stability" to the 400s in 416. 1:10 for sure would, and be even better.


Don't get too hung up on that 6.5 166---That was a "sample of only one" can't draw too much from that without more tests with it. It had a good meplat, 72% of caliber, so that helps, good nose profile, that helps. I am pretty sure my 6.5WSMs are 1:8 twist rates, that helps. So it has a lot going for it with those factors, but yet it was only one bullet, not enough to make firm decisions on. If I had two and they did the same, yes, but not just one.

You can't go wrong with the 350s, so you are ok with that. I can tell you what we can do to help with the 400s, increase meplat size! I have not checked, but I think North Fork has a 400 gr 416 right???? If they do, it's a 70% meplat I bet on it. I bet that it will stabilize and drive straight home!!!!!!!

I have to make a North Fork order for some 9.3 286 FPS bullets anyway, I will see if some 400s are available and get those too. We will put them thru the box and see!

Sound good?

Michael

Here might be a nice test:

The 450 grain Barnes solid in .458 is about 1.39" long with a .306 SD. (guestimate from Barnes pictures, they don't publish their lengths on line)
The 250 grain Barnes solid in .338 is about 1.39" long with a .313 SD.

IF the meplat is of equal percentage (65%?), how would they pentrate at 2200fps? Equaly, or how different?
Would the 338 outpenetrate at 2800?

In any case, the 458 calculates to a much higher stability factor because of its smaller length to diameter ratio. consequently, rifles in 458 typically have slower twists (1in14" or slower), while the 338 typically has 1 in 10". So the tests can't be done equally. (by the way, the idea of a 338 Lapua using a slower twist than the 338WM is kind of crazy for hunting. They must be calculating for spin drift at 1000 yards and using spins that allow the bullet to tip down after crossing its high point.

The Northfork 400 sounds good. My response above about the 450 grain 458 was written while your post was posting.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
The Northfork 400 sounds good. My response above about the 450 grain 458 was written while your post was posting.

When I make my order to North Fork, I will get some 400 gr 416 FPS.

The 450 Barnes Banded is my mainstay solid for my 458 B&M. I have tested MANY in the test mix over the last several years. Standard is 55-57 inches, time after time, mix after mix.

The 250 338 dives deeper as I recall. We tested those in 338 Win and 338 Ultra didn't we??? Can't remember, but I do remember the 338 Barnes doing EXTREMELY well.


M

Shades of Goldilocks!

quote:

The 450 grain Barnes solid in .458 is about 1.39" long with a .306 SD. (guestimate from Barnes pictures, they don't publish their lengths on line)
The 250 grain Barnes solid in .338 is about 1.39" long with a .313 SD.

That's pretty darn close, QL indicates 1.40" for each.

Ok, drawn from the "Terminal Bullet Performance" thread... Page 14 lists 48" penetration @ 2022 fps impact velocity and 60" penetration @ 2545 fps impact velocity for the .338 250gr BND SLD. Page 47, "data sheets" lists 56" penetration @ 2160 fps impact velocity for the .458 450gr BND SLD. Not same impact velocity but gives a good idea.

OK guys now explain the results with .366 dia. 320 grain Woodleigh RN solid.

465H&H