hi
i received a box of hornady 375 caliber -300 fmj fp instead of rn . is these bullets are solids for serious large game hunting or just fmj for plinking and smal game hunting?
regards
yes

If they're of current make, they're Hornady's steel jacketed FP solid, not just a simple FMJ. Hornady's steel jacketed solids have always had a good reputation on dangerous game.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

The 375 flat points are flat points more in name than reality. They are just as good as the old steel jacketed solids but the flat point is insignificant in area.

Check the product code number on your box of bullets and compair it to bullets currently listed on the Hornady web site.
This should informed as the type and useage of these bullets also use a magnet on the bullet jackets to see if they are steel as opposed to bonded non ferous metal.

In recent history, there are/were 3 variations of Hornady solids.

The "old" solids were similar to Woodleigh solids in that they were copper plated steel jacketed lead core solids with the typical rounded nose.

The next Hornady variation was a rather thick brass shell with a lead core. These were at one time dirt cheap and were good for plinking, but they worked fine for hunting in my limited use experience. These were introduced because Hornady didn't have a source of copper plated steel, according to Hornady.

The latest, "new" Hornady solids are just like the "old" steel jacketed solids but have a flat "tip" and not really a flat nose as one would expect from the now common flat point mono solids. The 375 and 416 have a very small in % area on the tip of the bullet. I can see no potentail difference in straight line penetration from the typical round nose.

The "new" 458 solid has a larger % area flat tip and should only help the straight line penetration but probably not as well as the some of the mono solids, such as the now defunct North Fork.

Sorry Will but your statement that FN solids penetrate straighter than RN steel jacketed solids is an unproven statement if not an out right myth. I started a thread recently asking for experiences of members with RN solids that didn't penetrate in a straight line. Only one could come up with one and that bullet hit a different part of the brain than aimed for. Even that seems like a small nicety to me. See https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/...=765104892#765104892

It does appear from experiences posted here that FN solids may penetrate deeper and cause more bleeding but I see no evidence of better straight line penetration. Remember as Alf said all bullets will tumble after they slow down to a certain level. At that time further penetration is minimal.

465H&H

Not to hijack this link, but I just received a box of what I believe to be old Hornady .375, 300 grain FMJ's. They are silver in color and don't have a steel jacket (non magnetic). Odd.

hi
i tried with magnet and yes it is steel jacketed bullet and not copper alloy . perhaps copper plated stell or something like that. am i good for elepkant hunting with these bullets
regards
yes

good bullet, better than an RN, not quite a FN, but they are sold as FP then, aren't they?

Copper over steel over lead core

hornady solids have always worked, and these are even better

deleted - duplicate

In my testing and uses I've come to the conclusion that FN solids do penetrate straighter but not as far as round nosed ones.
My question regarding Hornady's new solids is exactly how large does the flat nose have to be in order to show any effect, whether in penetration or straightness ?

In my testing and uses I've come to the conclusion that FN solids do penetrate straighter but not as far as round nosed ones.
My question regarding Hornady's new solids is exactly how large does the flat nose have to be in order to show any effect, whether in penetration or straightness ?

As contentious as this argument is, someone should run a full blown experiment that is both verifiable and repeatable (rather than a one time mass of bones or boards) in order to "prove" their theory.

/

Muddied or otherwise, a flat point on bullets tend to deflect less, as apparently known for a long time by police departments in the assault on the "fluid mechanics" of windshields and car fenders!

I have only read others accounts and only have one experience on one elephant. When shot with a 500 gr. North Fork FPS the bullet penetrated about 4.5 feet and as straight as an arrow, or as close as I could determine. That is more penetration than I have ever got before on anything.

So argue away, I have "proved" the straight line penetration benefit to myself, and that is all that matters.

/

Alf, your information has made more sense than the other gobbledygook one often finds here. When I was jousting with a few proponents of flatter is better I decided to ask a few of my engineer friends ( one is a NASA consultant and prof of physics at Cornell) anyway, when I told them of Hanson's theories they all looked at me as if I were the village idiot.
Anyway, thanks for your input.

And back to the subject. I fully intend to try both the new Hornady solid and the new DG steel jacketed "soft".

They sound Serious 300 gr THE biggest I shoot is 350gr
I'll bet they do travel fast out of a 375 H&H.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
( one is a NASA consultant and prof of physics at Cornell)

And I was a professor of mechanical engineering and don't know crap. Extranneous credentials do not mean anything down here in the trenches of bullet behavior.

Will, you are absolutely correct - but let's not tell everyone. Next thing you know they will be doubting gun writers.

I have proven to my satisfaction that flat point solids in the big bore revolvers out penetrate round nose. A meplat of about 78% of the bullet diamenter will out penetrate a smaller meplat. A truncated cone profile appears to be ideal. Why this is so in a Scientific explonation I do not know....

j/

hi
thank you for all the replies
but still I don't know if hornady solid fp bullets could be used for elephant and rhino or buffs?
regards
yes

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
I have proven to my satisfaction that flat point solids in the big bore revolvers out penetrate round nose. A meplat of about 78% of the bullet diamenter will out penetrate a smaller meplat. A truncated cone profile appears to be ideal. Why this is so in a Scientific explonation I do not know....

Ross Seyfried spoke this gospel as well in the late 70´s, and he wrote a bit about it in Guns and Ammo Magazine.

I made the same experience with the Ruger Super Blackhawk in 44 mag when handgun hunting was still legal in my neck of the woods

Actually, Seyfried was critical of the truncated cone:
"I tried what should have been the ultimate penetrator, 330 grains in J. D. Jones truncated cone design. They proved to be an utter failure, never reaching 22 inches in the same medium. The too pointed bullets simply turn sideways after a few inches, lying down on the job and dying." Seyfried "Ultimate Cast Handgun Bullets" Guns and Ammo/Oct 1993 page 89. He was impressed with the LBT design. Seyfried also wrote of the meplat issue in Handloader 227 page 91. He thought the Trophy Bonded Sledge Hammer meplat was a step in the right direction but the G. S. Custom was better.
Alf: thank you for explaining why the performance of the Jones truncated cone bullet has been so dissappointing.

quote:

Originally posted by bobmn:
Actually, Seyfried was critical of the truncated cone:
"I tried what should have been the ultimate penetrator, 330 grains in J. D. Jones truncated cone design. They proved to be an utter failure, never reaching 22 inches in the same medium. The too pointed bullets simply turn sideways after a few inches, lying down on the job and dying." Seyfried "Ultimate Cast Handgun Bullets" Guns and Ammo/Oct 1993 page 89. He was impressed with the LBT design. Seyfried also wrote of the meplat issue in Handloader 227 page 91. He thought the Trophy Bonded Sledge Hammer meplat was a step in the right direction but the G. S. Custom was better.
Alf: thank you for explaining why the performance of the Jones truncated cone bullet has been so dissappointing.

I agree with you on the J.D.Jones Truncated cone with the small meplat, but a truncated cone with a meplat of 78% of the bullet diameter is an entirely different animal... The Small Meplat on the Jones gesign was and is the problem..

Case in point The 475 Linebaugh shooting a 420 grain LBT style hard cast with 76% meplat style hard cast at 1384 FPS was out pentrated by a 500 JRH 425 Grain Truncated cone with a Meplat of 78% of bullet diameter the velocity was 1382 FPS. The loads were shot through a chronograph that was set up in front of the test media, and the velocity of each was extremely close...

Back in 1975, a truncated cone bullet pistol bullet was suggested to the Air Force for better penetration and less glancing off hard surfaces. This full-jacketed truncated cone bullet proved to be an improvement over the full-jacketed roundnose bullet in significant testing.

Why was it not adopted, even though requested by AF HQ? The Army, as sole-source procurers of small arms ammo rejected it as not acceptable for feeding in semi-auto weapons! Oh, you need to remember the Air Force was using .38 Special S&W Combat Masterpieces as the standard pistol at that time. No problem feeding!

hi
still i don't know if my hornady fmj fp bullets are good for large game hunting
yes

Yes,

For 99.99% of all the hunting that you would ever do, they are fine.

If you find yourself having to shoot through 48 inches of animal and you think that 47 inches just won't cut it in your life and death situation then maybe you could look at something else.

In my extensive testing of monolithic FN (NF and GS)and RN bullets (Barnes, TCCI, A-Square), and conventional FMJ RN bullets (original Hornady)in water tanks, to increase penetration a FN must be of Truncated design like the GS or NF (pictured).



The 458 NF (2nd from Right) will penetrate over 120 inches of water without tumbling!

The Round Nose bullets with a flat meplat still become unstable much sooner than a truncated cone FN and exit the water tanks sideways.



As Norbert and others have pointed out, this is probably due to the drag on the RN portion of the bullets Ogive.



If you machined off the Ogive of the Barnes so that it had a blunt Truncated Cone FN it would probably do better?

I would certainly hunt w the new Hornady, but not expect a significant improvement in penetration over the original RN which was always an industry standard.

Provided they are adequately stabilized, the new monolithic Nosler FN is likely to do somewhat bnetter than the RN-FN Barnes or so-called FN Hornady.

Woodleigh could blow everyone out of the water with a truncated cone FMJ-FN.

Andy

I believe that it is the small size i=of the Meplat on the Barnes that is the problem. The larger the Meplat on handgun bullets (up to about 78% or so) penetrate better than smaller Meplats (72%) and always out penetrate round nose bullets...

I imagine the problem with Hornady is they will not make a truncated cone becuase of people using them in bolts and the potential feeding problems.

I sent a note to Hornady that what they should have done was make different bullets for the 450/400, the 450, and the 470 that copied the truncated cones of the NF and others, as it will be unlikely that anyone will be using many of those bullets calibers in a bolt-action, as the truncated cone bullets are, of course, not an issue in doubles and single shots.

Of course there will be guys using the 480 gr. 458 bullets in bolt-actions, for some reason.

The meplat on their 458 bullets are better than nothing, but too bad they didn't go all the way.

I haven't heard back from Hornady!

quote:

Originally posted by Andy:

Woodleigh could blow everyone out of the water with a truncated cone FMJ-FN.

Andy

Exactly!

A lead core steel jacketed solid with a FN would have all of the benefits and none of the disadvantages of a FN monometal solid.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

Exactly!

A lead core steel jacketed solid with a FN would have all of the benefits and none of the disadvantages of a FN monometal solid.

465H&H

DITTO 465!!!!!

And they could make a 30 gram (465 grain) for the .458 WM.

Anyone who has the ear of Woodleigh please pass this request on to Geoff!

At one point I had suggested bonding the core to eliminate the "tooth paste tube" extrusion of lead like Kodiak does with their 500 grain FMJ FN, but I suspect the annealing of bonding makes the jacket too soft. At least it did in the Kodiak which had a monumentally thick copper jacket but still expanded to 60 caliber like a modest soft point.



Pictured, FMJ and monolithic solid bullets: 500 grain Kodiak TC FN is third from left.

Andy

In all my tests conducted and on game I have shot, I have concluded to my satisfaction that the GS Custom or the old Bridger FN solids penetrated deeper and in a straight line...They definatly kill better than a round nose with body cavity shots..and I found the North Fork cup points to be about the same as a round nose in penetration but they killed better than any solid and as well as softs with body shots..alas they are no more...

I wonder if the toothpaste effect has any effect really upon the desired performance of a solid, as to not deform and stay straight.

Is it not the general conclusion that the solids get bent on the side from side impacts? And is that not from tumbling?

I'm sure you're suggestion, though, of bonded lead cores would only help the situation.

I'm not sure whether the toothpaste effect is from impact or from engraving by the rifling. Seems like most recovered lead core solids have the oozing lead, so maybe since some don't it is indeed the impact that is mostly responsible.

Will,

I am certain the extrusion of lead from FMJ core, whether it is a military FMJ or sporting FMJ RN, is from impact.

The bent FMJ's are almost certainly from pitch and yaw as the bullet becomes unstable.

The bonded Kodiak FMJ FN show no sign of damage to the base of bullet other than the imprint of powder granules. So that eliminates engraving of rifling as a cause.

The Kodiaks are an intersting bullet. They have two cannelures, one for 458 WM and one for 45-70.

It ought to be perfect but the copper jacket is just too soft (as was the 2nd generation Hornady).

The Kodiak even used a high hardness lead. They really tried to make the perfect FMJ.

It would be fun to see if the Woodleigh copper plated steel jacket could resist deformation after being bonded. Would be easy for them to test out. Bonded or not a FMJ FN from Woodleigh would probably become the new industry standard around here.

Andy

It seems to me if you have an oozing solid its because you killed what you shot with it..If one escapes then we don't know what the problem is and so we come up with all manner of wisdom as to cause and effect...

I think todays solids are all excellent, I never have had a Woodleigh fail for me, and I don't think you can make a GS Custom or Bridger flat nose solid fail..other than a freak accident, anything made by man and all that rot.

/