I reload so I'm thinking between a 416 Rem or 416 Taylor..Any real difference between them a far a recoil loads etc.?

The rem will get 2400 the taylor will get there also bigger case the rem recoils a little more but nothing severe one you can buy factory ammo for the other you have to reload but 416 at 2400 from either the rem or taylor will get it done day in and day out it all depends what action your building it on and what your heart wants

Also I want to add brass for the Rem will be coming from Hornady soon and jameson sells its also a-square qual cart and others sell taylor brass but either you can make brass for 416 rem 375 h&h brass will always be around just like 338 win and 458 win will always be around for the taylor so its both a win win situation except you can use a wider range of bullets for the rem by that I mean the 400 grain tsx which will eat up alot of the taylors capacity but either or your good to go

I will admit to being curious; why not a Rigby. It operates at the same MV as the others at a lot lower pressures, or can be boosted a lot. It has the same case capacity as a 416 Wbee, and has been around nearly a hundred years.

Rich

What does a 100 years of history always come into play the old days of hunting with larger cases being needed for cordite loads are long gone just like the type of hunting that was done way back then gone from a practical standpoint the rigby offers nothing expect case capacity that the others don't and I don't want to hear about extraction problems etc because the 375 h&H operates at a pretty high pressure and not once have I herd 375 is junk wont extract in tropical climates

the rem will get there, the ruger as well.. the TAYLOR WILL NOT GET THERE WITHOUT EXCESSIVE PRESSURE .. the case is what % smaller, and people complain of excessive pressure in the rem

The Remington will make your life a little easier. Hornady making a offering soon as I am sure they will offer Brass.
You can buy a Mod 70 in the 416 Remington for a grand.

If you MUST have 2400fps, get the Rem. If you are going to build one, then realize the Rem needs a long--as in longer than 06---action. The Taylor fits nicely in any 06 length action. I had a Taylor built on a Mark X that I bought cheap. The smith turned it into a working masterpiece. Rl 15 or Imr 4320 will get you 2350 w/ 400g bullets on the chrono. With todays bullets, it's more than enough.

Express Rifles,

1. perhaps because it WORKS!! Ask Robert Ruark or Harry Selby. It has a solid track record VS things that will kill you.

2. I would not use the "you can always make brass from something else" as a major sales point.
They do not play that game much in Africa.

3. perhaps because you can always tip the can a bit farther and see what 2450, or 2500 or 2550 fps does. Or try some of the new 450gr (?) Norma bullets and see what they will do.

4. perhaps because the Rigby comes in CRF rifles. Some folks consider that an advantage.


Same speed, lower pressure is a guaranteed winner. The cost will be very close on the rifles.

regards,

Rich

Id not be sold on 2500 2550 2600 etc because if that was the cause id get a weatherby belt even with the belt and asking those in the golden age of safari is not a selling point times have change so has hunting big time and the man lives in the states where its not a problem to get brass and consider this if a box of federal here in the states of rigby goes for 200 a box do you think its cheaper in Africa noooo it will be in the 350-400 a box if you can and I do stress the IF YOU CAN get it just because it was used in Africa many years ago does not mean its easy to get there today

Also

Wasent it Ruark or Taylor who use to hunt in the buff it worked for him so why dont many people if any when their on safari

I have a 416 taylor if I did the same rifle now it would be a 416 ruger over the rem or rigby.

Express Rifles,

you make a valid point, but the belt on the Wbee costs a round in most magazine boxes. As far as cost and availability in Africa, while I was in RSA in April, I got my PH to take me to the various gunshops in Pretoria and Jo-Berg. I saw Rigby ammunition in all of them. 375 H&H, 416 Rigby, 458WM were everywhere. 458 Lott in about half. I was a bit surprised to see how much more expensive (like two and one half times retail) that RSMs were than the CZs. Norma ammunition was common, and several did have Hornady.

As you suggest, it does come down to preference. I just came to the conclusion, many years ago, that I was wasting my time trying to reinvent the DG wheel. Besides, if you carry a loaded round of 416 Rigby in one front pants pocket women think you are very glad to see them again...

Rich
that's a plus for us old guys...

You can knock em off their feet with a 505 gibbs or 600 overkill in your pocket as well

Rich
Hornady 375 hh ammo you said?

All of my rifles were built on different actions, different stocks, barrels and weights so it is impossible to answere the recoil question. My impression of my own shooting at full house loads was that the Remington seemed sharper and the Rigby was definitely heavier. Of course the Rigby at full house creates a lot more velocity as well.
One small point which can be made for the Rigby VS anything argument is the Heavy/Long for caliber loading. The Rigby allows use of 450 grain loads if you are of the Elmer Keith ilk. Or long for caliber bullets if you enjoy the Barnes bullets. Either way case capacity will not be affected.
It is hard to compare the .375 shape to anything due to the long taper which few if any of the modern rounds are currently using.
I have a Taylor and don't ever feel the need to load it to excessive pressure limits. What for? The 400 or 410 grain loads will kill just as well at 2000 to 2200 fps. as the 400 gr. will kill at 2000 to 2400 fps. limits. Otherwise people wouldn't be killing the same animals with the 300 gr. .375's.
I had a Rem. and got rid of it before realizing the pressure hype did not affect me at the range.
I shoot the .416 AR and it does as well as all the .416's just not available worldwide should a shipping loss occur.
I loved the Rigby enough to buy my rifle back after selling but cannot say it is the only rifle I will ever shoot again.
Now if someone had a .416 rimmed double available and if cordite were available again and if all the elephant in the world were available again at the open quota of long ago I would truly be in bliss.
Frank
Frank

jeffe,

yes, a shop in Jo-berg had Hornady in a few calibers. IIRC, 375H&H, 458WM & Lott, and even some 450-400.

Rich

I plan on getting back in the late spring, if I do I will look a bit more.

In the late '90s I bought a Remington Custom Shop .416Rem and later a Winchester Special Build .416Rem. Killed Buff with both and never had a problem with ammo. Finally sold the Remington, although it was a superbly accurate rifle, because it was blued and the Winchester was SS and shot nearly as well - still MOA.

There is no difference ballistically between the Rem and Rigby, but I prefer the Rem case size.

quote:

Now if someone had a .416 rimmed double available

Kreighoff 500/416 is a rimmed 416

I built a Taylor, slick as pie. Easy build. Then I had to have a Rigby. Bought a really nice one. It kicked like the bejesus, even though it was 1 to 1-1/2 pounds heavier than the Taylor. Sold the Rigby and am building another 416. Intended to build a 416 Ruger, till I read all the complaints about the amount of work needed to make it feed in a standard action. After some thought, I am building a second Taylor. To me, it is the easiest answer to the big medium bore. As noted, I use RL15 and get 2300 to 2350 from a handy length barrel. Quality sells all the headstamped brass I want at a reasonable price. For practice loads, I just run a 458 in the die. Open the bolt face and ream the chamber on a VZ24, and you are in business. It's hard to think of a better large medium. It is hard to get all the way to 2400, but everybody on the face of the globe has been singing the praises of the 450/400 for three years now. It shoots a .410 400 gr at 2150. THe Taylor shoots a .416 400 gr at 2300. Both use similar powder charges and similar recoil in relatively light rifles.
I thought the Ruger 416 was gonna be the Real Deal, but so far we still only have an Alaskan rifle with a long pistol barrel, or the option of major surgery on the feeding system of your action, or trying to locate a RUM donor. I wish someone would legitimize the Taylor, but with Ruger throwing its vote to their 416, I'm not sure who that would be. I suspect the ammo factories, with their non-canister ball powders, could easily crack the 2400 barrier.

I've never understood the 416 Remington pressure reports. I have never in quite a bit of shooting seen any pressure signs or problems in a Taylor, and it will get within 50-75 fps of the Remington. The Taylor is one of those cartridges which, with proper powders, it seems like it is almost impossible to get enough in the case to cause a problem.

quote:

Originally posted by Express_Rifles:

quote:

Now if someone had a .416 rimmed double available

Kreighoff 500/416 is a rimmed 416

Thanks for that information. Very nice. I will have to have a good look at the rifles. I am totally unfamiliar with the cocking tang but the concept seems valid as long as it works reliably.
Frank

quote:

I thought the Ruger 416 was gonna be the Real Deal, but so far we still only have an Alaskan rifle with a long pistol barrel, or the option of major surgery on the feeding system of your action, or trying to locate a RUM donor. I wish someone would legitimize the Taylor, but with Ruger throwing its vote to their 416, I'm not sure who that would be.

Yes, I think you hit the nail on the head, Ruger will push its 416 Ruger and so not chamber for the 416 Taylor. I believe that CZ will be offering a 416 Taylor, but I do not have it confirmed, but you can contact CZUSA and enquire.

Warrior

Threads like this are a real kick. OK...I'll play....anyone care to explain how two different cases throwing the same weight and diameter bullet at the same velocity generate what is often described as different amounts of recoil in what can only be assumed to be the same weight rifle? Old Isaac Newton might have something to say about that.

Frank,

I just went to the CZUSA site and yes they do list the 416 Taylor - this is an extract:

"The new Express Rifle is designed for cartridges that fit standard length actions. For the hunter wanting the same handling and features in a plains game rifle that they have in their dangerous tgame rifle, or for those of us who believe in the carry all day, shoot once philosophy of recoil management.

Available in (but not limited to): .425 Westley Richards, .416 Ruger, . 416 Taylor, .375 Ruger, 9.3x62, .338 Win Mag, .300 Win Mag, 30-06, and .270 Win.

Both the express and Magnum Express rifles are custom built to the customer's specifications.

US$ 3278.00"

http://cz-usa.com/products/view/express-rifle/

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:
Threads like this are a real kick. OK...I'll play....anyone care to explain how two different cases throwing the same weight and diameter bullet at the same velocity generate what is often described as different amounts of recoil in what can only be assumed to be the same weight rifle? Old Isaac Newton might have something to say about that.

Different weights of powder. The gas from the powder also has a much higher average velocity than the bullet and so a relatively small difference in powder weight can make a significant difference in the recoil.

quote:

Threads like this are a real kick. OK...I'll play....anyone care to explain how two different cases throwing the same weight and diameter bullet at the same velocity generate what is often described as different amounts of recoil in what can only be assumed to be the same weight rifle? Old Isaac Newton might have something to say about that.

You hit the nail on the head when you said that Isaac Newton explains it. A look at the normally accepted recoil formula shows why. Your comment left out the third factor in recoil, which is the powder charge. The Rigby vs. the Taylor is one of the best examples. The recoil contributed by each of the components is related to the weight and the velocity. Velocity effects are squared. While the weight of the charge may not seem significant compared to the weight of the bullet, the bullet leaves the muzzle at only 2400 fps. The accepted ejecta exit velocity for a modern rifle is generally accepted to be 6000 to 7000 fps. For this reason, the effect of the powder gas is 5 to 6 times higher per grain than the bullet contribution. In a Rigby, the recoil from the powder is almost equal to the recoil from the bullet. Now take a Taylor (or a 450/400) with a powder charge of only around 70% of the powder charge of a Rigby. Felt recoil in the same weight rifle would be only about 75% of the Rigby. If Rigby's didn't weigh more, their recoil would be brutal. It's the same reason a 300 Magnum, when shooting the same bullets at only a couple of hundred fps more than a 30-06, kicks like a mule compared to the 06 in the same weight rifle.

I thought it interesting last year in Zimbabwe that my partner's PH would not put a finisher into a buffalo he'd shot, because his 416 Rigby costs $20 per round and is sometimes hard to get. He carries it a lot, but only shoots it if he has to - how much practice does that allow?

Says the Rigby is one caliber that the clients never leave extra ammo for when they depart, and they certainly don't have shooting contests with the camp staff either!!!!!!!

quote:

I wish someone would legitimize the Taylor, but with Ruger throwing its vote to their 416, I'm not sure who that would be.

Someone did....several years ago. ASquare SAAMI'd it up, along with a few other wild cats. But, as is the case with EVERYTHING that A-Square touches, its super over priced ammo, brass, rifles and no one else will touch em. People still think the 6.5-06, 338-06 and 416 Taylor are wildcats but they have been legit for some time now

Please note that in my response I did state different rifles and actions and weights. Even so, different cartridges using the same weight bullets will give different perceptions of recoil due to cartridge shape and peak combustion differences.

About the giving of ammo and shooting contests.
We did just that and you can see by the different ways these fellows hold their rifles and control the recoil that they don't get much practice at all. This was with a .375 and you can see where the spotter is directing the hits or Misses.
I only had a couple of the guys take me up on the .416 Rigby and the PH definitely grabbed up all the ammo I left behind saying how difficult it was to find.
Frank

I knew, of course, that A-Square had SAMMIed the Taylor, but that still leaves it in limbo unless a major manufacturer makes guns. I personally buy Quality headstamped brass and find it very good. I am really pleased to see the CZ being made (I am getting ready to stock both the Taylor and a 425 I am working on), but it would have had a lot more impact if they had just released it in the 550 American instead of a $3500 custom rifle. That's not going to put a lot of Taylors in the field. If Ruger or someone else major would put out a decent trade grade Taylor, I thik it would become quite popular.

quote:

Originally posted by Blank:
I thought it interesting last year in Zimbabwe that my partner's PH would not put a finisher into a buffalo he'd shot, because his 416 Rigby costs $20 per round and is sometimes hard to get. He carries it a lot, but only shoots it if he has to - how much practice does that allow?

Says the Rigby is one caliber that the clients never leave extra ammo for when they depart, and they certainly don't have shooting contests with the camp staff either!!!!!!!

There's no excuse for not leaving ammo behind, especially if a PH is using the same calibre as you. Also, you never know when ammo left behind by a previous client may save your hunt when yours doesn't show up! I don't care if it cost $20/round, not leaving behind a box is just tight, especially if you come from a country where reloading is straightforward (not like Spain where reloading is 'technically' illegal). JMHO

Factory fodder OK; Handloads there comes some liability. You never know about the rifle it is being used in. I never provide my handloads to another. They are far more accurately loaded than mass production cartridges but the world is just to law suit crazy!

quote:

Originally posted by JabaliHunter:

quote:

Originally posted by Blank:
I thought it interesting last year in Zimbabwe that my partner's PH would not put a finisher into a buffalo he'd shot, because his 416 Rigby costs $20 per round and is sometimes hard to get. He carries it a lot, but only shoots it if he has to - how much practice does that allow?

Says the Rigby is one caliber that the clients never leave extra ammo for when they depart, and they certainly don't have shooting contests with the camp staff either!!!!!!!

There's no excuse for not leaving ammo behind, especially if a PH is using the same calibre as you. Also, you never know when ammo left behind by a previous client may save your hunt when yours doesn't show up! I don't care if it cost $20/round, not leaving behind a box is just tight, especially if you come from a country where reloading is straightforward (not like Spain where reloading is 'technically' illegal). JMHO

Ok I will add my 2 cents
416 rem has about 1k more pressure than the 375 H&H but the 375 has more taper so less likely to stick. You will read about pressure problems with the 416 but this is all crap written gun writers to sell articles
416 rigby yes to lower pressure and brass is easy to find. you can heat it up if you want. the disadvantage is it takes up more space in the magazine.
416 ruger. pressure is high. pressure the same as a wby to get velocity up. The only advantage I see to it is you can get one at a low cost.
416 wby same as rigby. disadvantage is factory ammo is loaded for speed but It is easily fixed with handloading.
push feed actions yada yada yada vs controlled feed actions. controlled feeds can also cause controlled jams. Many people who shoot the 458 lott have seen this happen so truly you need to give the gun a good trial and see how it preforms.

I have shot and owend many 416's and my current set up is a wby with 400 grain solid loaded at rigby velocities shooting open sights and I have a warne equiped qd scope that I can slap on and it is sighted to shoot very fast 350 x bullets. this way I can take one gun.

Not a whole lot of difference between any of them. The Taylor and Ruger will made for shorter actions and smaller, lighter rifles, which is my preference.

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:
Threads like this are a real kick. OK...I'll play....anyone care to explain how two different cases throwing the same weight and diameter bullet at the same velocity generate what is often described as different amounts of recoil in what can only be assumed to be the same weight rifle? Old Isaac Newton might have something to say about that.

I'll treat this as an honest, though uninformed, question

generally, the 416 rigby rifle is going to be about 1# heavier than a 416 rem.. and a 416 ruger is going to be much lighter than that, assuming factory trim.

more powder=more recoil, in the same weight gun

pressure matters to some-- though if you use a modern gun, pressure, within sanity, is a preference, not a recondition.

IF built in the same weight, stock style rifle, (drumroll) and operating with the same LENGTH BARREL, - recoil and velocity will be, ghighest to lowest
416 ruger
416 rem
416 rigby....

shocked? why? the default NEW rifle for each has the following
cz-416 rigby9.4# - 25" barrel - 2400 fps
win- 9.0# 416 rem - 24" barrel - 2400 fps
ruger 7.75# - 416 ruger 23" barrel- 2400fps

if you rearrange the barrels, the ruger always winds up on top, in terms of velocity AT FACTORY PRESSURES. as well as in factory guns, teh ruger runs lighter weight, which means more felt recoil

and now folks are going to bash the ruger, without addressing the rem, stating (without knowledge) that it doesn't make book .. though the same was said about the rem.

and, for the record, the taylor SHOULD run 2250, as it compares to the 404, not 416

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
Available in (but not limited to):

Both the express and Magnum Express rifles are custom built to the customer's specifications.

US$ 3278.00"
Warrior

bespoke rifle, is, of course, built to customer specs

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Express Rifles,

1. perhaps because it WORKS!! Ask Robert Ruark or Harry Selby. It has a solid track record VS things that will kill you.

2. I would not use the "you can always make brass from something else" as a major sales point.
They do not play that game much in Africa.

3. perhaps because you can always tip the can a bit farther and see what 2450, or 2500 or 2550 fps does. Or try some of the new 450gr (?) Norma bullets and see what they will do.

4. perhaps because the Rigby comes in CRF rifles. Some folks consider that an advantage.


Same speed, lower pressure is a guaranteed winner. The cost will be very close on the rifles.

regards,

Rich

I'm with Rich. Now that goood magnum length actions are readily available, the Rigby is the only way to go.

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:
Threads like this are a real kick. OK...I'll play....anyone care to explain how two different cases throwing the same weight and diameter bullet at the same velocity generate what is often described as different amounts of recoil in what can only be assumed to be the same weight rifle? Old Isaac Newton might have something to say about that.

Newton is a better source of reality than AR forums. Same bullet, same velocity, same powder weight, all equal the same recoil.

Just because the Rigby case looks cool doesn't make the round a better killer. I'd rather have more in the magazine than a cool looking cartridge. Pissed-off buffalo don't care about cool guns or impressive looking cartridges.

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:
Threads like this are a real kick. OK...I'll play....anyone care to explain how two different cases throwing the same weight and diameter bullet at the same velocity generate what is often described as different amounts of recoil in what can only be assumed to be the same weight rifle? Old Isaac Newton might have something to say about that.

Force=MV2 F=MA Both of these formulas show that the major component is velocity and acceleration. Mass comes from two components, bullet and propellent. When the bullet leaves the barrel the gases are accelerated to many thousand feet per second greater than the bullet. This is the reason muzzle crown is so important. The higher the pressure the greater the gas acceleration. The escaping gases account for 40% to 60% of the recoil. This is why muzzle brakes work. The .416 Rem will kick harder than the Taylor for the same muzzle velocity because it uses more propellent and has higher pressure.

We have all heard recoil discribed as more like a push amd others as a sharp kick. Low pressure rounds give more of a push. High pressure rounds give a sharp spike when the bullet leaves the barrel and releases the pressure. The sharp spike is usually the most painful.......Tom

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Same bullet, same velocity, same powder weight, all equal the same recoil.

yep.. and that trifecta ONLY happens in the same case .. can we come back to the real world to discuss, please?

quote:

Just because the Rigby case looks cool doesn't make the round a better killer. I'd rather have more in the magazine than a cool looking cartridge. Pissed-off buffalo don't care about cool guns or impressive looking cartridges.

Nor do they care about the hunters heritage or his royal blood.
Pretty much indiscriminant.

Warrior