quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
What me? I did not bring up the Kynock loadings.

My point or retort was, if Kynock under loads the 458Lott (ie 5000 ft-lbs as opposed to 6000), imagine what they would do "if" they did load the WinMag. You know, some African hunters and some ammo companies prefer to keep the African ammo loaded to lower pressure. That was an early complaint against the 416Rem. And the 416Rem is full magnum length and only 40 cal. My point: If you, me or Kynock or Federal, decide modest pressure is more important than Superformance the 458WM comes up short.

So why do you suppose Kynock loads all those other 45's and only sells brass for the Win Mag?

Over the last number of years we have been fortunate to see significant advancement in powders and bullets that have enhanced performance well beyond what was available years before.

I agree with you that it would be nice for Winchester to chamber the Lott but your points about the win. mag., 416 Rem. just do not hold up with what is available today and what has been proven in the field.

Sure it can be hot in Africa but it gets pretty darn hot and humid down my way. I have never had any problems with ammo. in Africa. I load my big bores for use in Africa...of course I do test my ammo. in the summer when it gets close to 90 to 100 degrees F.

If your point is strictly about chambering the Lott in the Model 70, I agree...would love to have an 8 1/2 to 9 lb. 458 lott.

As far as the 450 Rigby and Dakota, sure they can do more than the win. mag and Lott but at the cost of more weight, heavier recoil, etc.

I spent a good bit of time on my first two trips to Tanzania toting around 11+ lbs of rifle, etc...after the second trip I was done with all that and sold off my Double rifles and dressed up CZs for lighter and trimmer rifles.

In the heat of Africa chasing DG, I want as light a rifle package as possibly...that will do the job. I learned this the hard way and it is something worth mentioning to those who are looking at a rifle to take to Africa chasing DG.

quote:

What me? I did not bring up the Kynock loadings.

My point or retort was, if Kynock under loads the 458Lott (ie 5000 ft-lbs as opposed to 6000), imagine what they would do "if" they did load the WinMag. You know, some African hunters and some ammo companies prefer to keep the African ammo loaded to lower pressure. That (hi pressure) was an early complaint against the 416Rem. And the 416Rem is full magnum length big capacity case and only 40 cal. My point: If you, me or Kynock or Federal, decide modest pressure is more important than Superformance the 458WM comes up short or shorter.

So why do you suppose Kynock loads all those other 45's and only sells brass for the Win Mag? I have an idea.

I noticed, Kynock loads the 450Rigby to approx power levels that the Lott is rated to - 6000 ft-lbs. The 450 Rigby seems to be gaining a foot hold in Africa.

Express, I went back and read your posts. Do you like the idea of the new M70 being 458WM only and no Lott? I am not a PIA, just asking for straight talk - your thoughts.

How much experience do you have in the field not rubbish you read or think you know ?Because id love to know we've shot countless 416 Remington rounds in the summer in Tanzania along with countless rounds of 458 Winchester never had as much have a sticky extraction so are we lucky?maybe but then again the 375 H&H also a high pressure round is touted as the African queen and do all rifle.

But to be honest what do you think the lott will do the Winchester wont besides put 200 fps more on the paper in controlled enviorments ie labs with test bbls if you want a step up in 458 the same parent case is not much gain ie both being based on the 375 h&h you want more go rigby case ie 450 rigby and 460 weatherby

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
My complaint is Winchester has the M70 Safari setup for the magnum length 375H&H and 416Rem - magazine, feeding all setup for sale from new factory. Then goes out of the way to chamber the short 458. Its just so damn stupid, it makes me crazy.

Duly noted! "...it makes me crazy."

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

And... oh, fourbore,

My local gun emporium has a beautiful NIB WINCHESTER M70 Safari in... get this... .458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM!!!

I'm very tempted, but would have to wait for the Government to pay me what it owes...

And I'd NOT defile it with that "Lott" name! What is that anyway? It doesn't begin to have the charm of WINCHESTER!

Besides, as it's been pointed out 10,000,000,000 times (or more), the .458 Win Mag doesn't need help from the Lott anymore as it's pretty much it's equal. I'm sure you can read... so just go to Hornady or Barnes recent manuals and they'll be a big help to ya! 2150 from 500s is quite easy and 2200 fps is possible with the best loads from a 24".

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

And, I forgot to mention Hodgdon's manual where they show 3 of 5 loads for the 500gr Hor JRN as surpassing 2150 fps, and all 3 are significantly less than 53,000 cup.

And Accurate powders show a load from AA2230 at 2159/500gr Hor/53,808 PSI (Note, that's PSI, and the max PSI for the .458 Win Mag is 62,500); and another load from AA2460 at 2192/500gr Hor/52,864 PSI; and a third from 2015 BR at 2149/500gr Hor/58,056 PSI.

At 62,500 PSI it's quite possible to attain 2200 fps from several powders today/24" barrels and bullets that are not monos constrained to 3.34".

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

458_only

I read your blog! For those who have not taken the time, this guy has gone threw the entire volume of Barnes Cartridges of the World and invented a unique, twisted and convoluted reason why the 458WinMag is better than each and every one. Truely, I kid you not.

Then he likes the 416Rem, better than the 416Taylor! Man, go try and figure that? The long ctg is better. Unless its a Lott, then it its 2nd best. Bottom line 458WM is always better then all. Not any 458 mind you, but exclusively the WinMag.

Look here, ya'll missing the point! I think every home should have several Winchester M70s, some 458 Wins, some 458 Lotts, 416 Remingtons, 458 B&Ms, 416 B&Ms, 9.3 B&Ms, 50 B&Ms, 500 MDMs, 470 Capsticks, 475 B&Ms, 50 B&M Super Shorts, 458 B&M Super Shorts, 475 B&M Super Shorts, and whatever else you can think of. Damn, I would hate like hell to be able to choose only one, I say get several of each of them! Then look for an excuse to build some more! That's what I do!

Michael

quote:

threw the entire volume of Barnes Cartridges of the World

No, fourbore, I didn't "threw" anything! I wasn't angry...

...especially "Barnes Cartridges of the World". I don't have that volume...

At the beginning of the blogs mentioned, I set up 10 criteria for myself by which I determined whether or not a particular Big Bore would find a place in my gun locker. Ballistics was only one of those criteria. Based on that set of criteria, I predicted that the .458 WM would come out on top... which it did until I introduced my Ruger No.1 in .45-70 (long-throated)into the mix, which beat it by a smidgen.

The main reasons why it turned out that way wasn't due to ballistics, but availability of handloading components and their costs, as well as factory ammo and cost. Then, there was also the extreme cost of some rifles (with excellent ballistics) as well as their scarceness and ammo for them being uncommon. Of course, there were other criteria.

But the main reason I chose the .458 WM over the others is because it does have very good ballistics (not necessarily better), it's common, prices are moderate for components, and no other true Big Bore has the diversity or quality (and plain-jane) bullets as in .458" (unless you consider the .375 H&H a true Big Bore).

The reason I chose it over the Lott (I could have had it from the same dealer at the same price)was because I didn't feel that the few extra ft-lbs was worth the extra costs in $$ and recoil! Yes, .458 WM brass outsells the Lott in this area by about 5 to 1, and it's easier to find them at a more reasonable cost. That concerns myself... NO ONE ELSE!

Though I did have some fun pointing out that, depending how you load them, the .458 WM MAY surpass the Lott in ballistics. For example: if you use one of the long monos, like the 500gr TSX in your Lott with a 23" tube... and a 500gr Hornady in a 25" .458 WM... loading each with their "premium" loads, the .458 WM will "win" that contest because the length of the TSX= 1.659" vs 1.33" for the Hornady, will negate any cartridge-case advantage the Lott may have had starting out. Add the 2" advantage of the 25" tube over the 23" and you have a possible advantage in favor of the Win Mag by up to 50 - 100 fps!

So, it does depend on how you load 'em, as well as other features. In the CZ 550 (mine) you can load 'em like a Lott to begin with if you want since the action allows it as well as the freebore.

Now, I don't want to upset you further, but your constant rant against the .458 Win does irritate some of us who know some positive things about the .458 WM.

You have a right to your views, but your continuous negative remarks about something that you seem to have little (or no)experience on gets a little wearying after awhile.

Wish you well.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Look here, ya'll missing the point! I think every home should have several Winchester M70s, some 458 Wins, some 458 Lotts, 416 Remingtons, 458 B&Ms, 416 B&Ms, 9.3 B&Ms, 50 B&Ms, 500 MDMs, 470 Capsticks, 475 B&Ms, 50 B&M Super Shorts, 458 B&M Super Shorts, 475 B&M Super Shorts, and whatever else you can think of. Damn, I would hate like hell to be able to choose only one, I say get several of each of them! Then look for an excuse to build some more! That's what I do!

Right on, more choices not less! I like your style. I know we both like the M70 and it is a shame to see this stupidity where the new Winchester concedes an affordable Lott as the exclusive domain of the CZ550.

I could understand if Winchester Safari was offered in 338Win, 416Taylor and 458Win. Not too say I would like it. That would make some sense from manufacturing or marketing or corporate ego point of view. Heck they could call the new 416 the 416Winchester! But building the 375H&H and 416Rem and NO Lott but instead a shorty WinMag ONLY is just plain stupid beyond belief.

Bob, Sorry. I read your blog. Its not a "458 only" world.

fourbore

Give Winchester a chance, here at the SC plant they just getting cranked up, I think that we are lucky to see any big bores at all right now. I would have guessed it would have been longer on that! You must also understand that they are going with what they have right now, and the expertise to work with. If I had a guess I would say that in a few years they will be on a 458 Lott. But who knows what they might or might not do, I really think that they are not in touch with the big bore market, and know little about it. When they get cranking a bit, and someone comes in with some big bore experience, they might do better, we will see.

Anyway, I had 5 custom 458 Lotts built just because of that! All 22 inch barrels, couple matte finish, couple hi polish blue, all with XX English or Turkish AI stocks, all with NECG front barrel bands and rear sight. Very nice guns!

I do love a Winchester M70, of that there is no doubt!

Michael

A Winchester Model 70 Safari Express in .458 Win. Mag. was reviewed in this month's American Rifleman.

This is one of the new rifles manufactured at the FN factory in Columbia, SC.

I don't like the new trigger - it's modular and non-adjustable. And the wood on the test rifle was as plain as brown paint.

The rifle was reliable and accurate. Three different factory loads averaged 1.55" for 75 consecutive 5-shot groups at a range of 100 yards.

I found it interesting, however, that of the three factory loads tested, one did not even make it to 2,000 fps, and the other two barely exceeded that velocity.

All from a 24" barrel.

The average velocities were:

Federal Cape-Shok 500 grain Barnes TSX - 2,017 fps.
Winchester Super-X 510 grain SP - 1,986 fps.
Winchester Supreme Safari 500 grain Nosler Partition - 2,005 fps.

I much prefer the Lott.

Winchester is missing the boat by not chambering it.

Not too bright, in my book.

As I've said before, the Lott makes more sense if not hand loading (or if your keen on a super short barrel) and still want to achieve the 2100fps minimum .

If I remember correctly there was only one brand of powder that would let me get up to 2150 without any issues-compaction or pressure and that was AA2230.Win 748 was Ok with pressure but I had to really compact the powder.If you get the 458WM and reload,I suggest you stock up on AA2230 especially if one does not live in the US.It took me two years to get my last couple of pounds of the stuff.I see you are from Canada-good luck findingAA2230.You can call up every retailer in the country and no one will have a pound of the stuff at this moment.

quote:

I much prefer the Lott.

Winchester is missing the boat by not chambering it.

Not too bright, in my book.

Mike

Maybe so but didnt you switch from the lott to the 500 a-2 because it didnt give you the effect you wanted ???? no matter how you slice it 458 caliber moving 2150-2600 is still a 458 caliber slug not much of a change unless stepping up in caliber..

I have not built a Lott on a M70 but I have built a .450 Ackley on a Pre-64, .375 H&H M70. The Lott would be asier as you could just rechamber the barrel. I used a new barrel. As I remember I used the old .375 Mag Box and just did a little rail work and follower work to get it to feed. It came out great!-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
If I remember correctly there was only one brand of powder that would let me get up to 2150 without any issues-compaction or pressure and that was AA2230.Win 748 was Ok with pressure but I had to really compact the powder.If you get the 458WM and reload,I suggest you stock up on AA2230 especially if one does not live in the US.It took me two years to get my last couple of pounds of the stuff.I see you are from Canada-good luck findingAA2230.You can call up every retailer in the country and no one will have a pound of the stuff at this moment.

Shootaway;

Just use H335... it'll get 'er done!
Recommended as "best" by both Hornady and Hodgdon.

I've tried AA2230 and it's only slightly better with AA2460 being close.

H4895 is a good powder as well but being a stick powder it requires more compression.

As stated, as fact, 2150 to 2200 is easy or possible with the right combination of components. Take a look at Hornady and Hodgdon manuals.

Even the Barnes #4 shows loads for the 450 BB at up to 2385 fps/5683 ft-lbs; and the 500 BB at 2194 fps/5344 ft-lbs. The Lott beats that one by 70 fps in equal length barrels.

I do NOT shoot factory stuff... never have in most rifles I've owned for over 50 years. The 35 Whelen factory loads (250gr), which I bought for deer season before my dies arrived, fell short by 150 fps! AND, it's been pointed out by Phil Shoemaker that about all factory ammo he's tried for Big Bores has come well short of promises, including Lott in a 22" barrel.

ALL .458 WM factory throats are very long! The late Finn AAgaard, who tested factory ammo in five (5) different rifles revealed that his 23" custom barrel not only exceeded the others by a significant margin, including a 25" Winchester M70, but surpassed factory specs by about 100 fps! THAT particular load was from Federal which promised 2090 fps from a 24" and it made 2188 fps from his 23". The reason? His had a freebore about like the Lott...

My reading reveals that the .270 Win has a serious problem attaining anything near promises from its 130gr at near 3100 fps... On average, it attains (from factory fodder) about 2900 from a 22". And, we could go on.

No doubt, some will use factory loads for mega fauna, but, equally, others will trust only their hand-made product. I'm among the latter group.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

I did exactly this, the gun ran fine, I just didn't enjoy shooting it w/ Lott loads, the gun is too light IMO. Sold it & had my 404j made up on a M70 instead. I think Win used to make the M70 in the LOtt from the custom shop too.

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
ALL .458 WM factory throats are very long! The late Finn AAgaard, who tested factory ammo in five (5) different rifles revealed that his 23" custom barrel not only exceeded the others by a significant margin, including a 25" Winchester M70, but surpassed factory specs by about 100 fps! THAT particular load was from Federal which promised 2090 fps from a 24" and it made 2188 fps from his 23". The reason? His had a freebore about like the Lott...
www.bigbores.ca

.458 Only,

How does freebore bring about extra velocity with factory ammo? I could see that it would if you handload, because you could seat the bullets extra long and add powder, but how does it do it with factory ammo? What am I'm missing?

(I'm just asking to learn...)

[Edited to add:] Wait a minute I just reread that and it looks like you may be saying that Aargaard's custom barrel had a shorter throat than the factory rifles, hence (presumably) higher pressures and antendent higher velocities. Is that correct? Color me confused...

quote:

What am I'm missing?

You are missing that 458_only is in love and love is blind. I know where he is coming from, I feel same was about 375H&H and 416Rigby.

Who, I dont understand is Express. Express has yet to explain why he does not want Winchester to chamber the Lott?

Forget the ballistic smoke and mirrors. the real question is and was, why is Winchester and some (2) members of this forum opposed to seeing the Lott in the M70? You (2) can have all the WinMags you want but why deny the rest of us a Lott?

Why? Why No Lott? Forget the 458 debate. Why no Lott? Keep your 458WM, but why no Lott for the other 98% of us?

Instead of redirection, answer this (asking for the 2nd time): Why you two, rejoice in Winchester rejection of the Lott.

This can hurt Winchester (or who ever owns the name) in the long run. Another boost for CZ, the new big bore king. Long live the King?

Why no Lott?

Why no Lott?

Why no Lott?

My Lott is a CZ 458. I canot say anything bad about it. Recoil is hardly there. Weight is 10 LBS. I bought it with the intention of going Elephant hunting.

Jro45, congrats,

Money in the bank for CZ and an opportunity lost for the new owners of Winchester.

Again, what is Winchester thinking? And why is considered a good for either Winchester and the shooting/hunting public?

Fourbore I have nothing to explain to you I feel you are a prat with 0 experience with all knowledge gained from this gun board..So why explain a moot point with someone who is so easily swayed by what others like or tell you what is good..

PS.Do you think Winchester makes their money off safari rifles????No mostly small and medium bore rifles so the small precentage of those who buy the big bores who pass them up for a cz is not going to hurt their sales.

Express, that makes a total of 10 posts in this thread and not once any reason given why (or even if) you agree that Winchester should not chamber the Lott. Only points against the Lott or pro WinMag and several questions about experience or character of those posting in favor a Lott option. That sir, is the very definition of trolling. I just looked on wiki.

If I am a troll then why are you asking me another question. How about you simply say this is a good decision for Winchester because of x,y,z ? Then we can exchange views. I asked very very politely first time,then a 2nd now a 3rd.

quote:

PS.Do you think Winchester makes their money of safari rifles????...No mostly small and medium bore rifles so the small percentage of those those who buy the big bores who pass them up for a cz is not going to hurt their sales.

It dont matter! Sales dont matter. Customers dont matter. 200fps dont matter. Easy of reloading dont matter. I dont need it. Who am? Who is the other guy?

I built a .458 Lott a few years ago on a Model 70 Classic stainless synthetic. I started with a .375 H&H and had the rifle rebarreled with a stainless barrel. The magazine box was long enough to accomodate the Lott without modification. I also had the rifle fitted with a stainless banded front sight for a Ruger Number 1 and a stainless Ruger rear sight and stainless Ruger barrel band sling swivel. I cut the original sling stud off flush and cut a screwdriver slot in it. This was a very easy conversion which made an outstanding rifle for tough use.

Thanks to all who chimed in with opinions on this, and especially to those who contacted me with helpful PM's. I would have preferred the Lott, but after looking at the model 70 and the CZ I had to go with the Winchester. I can always do the Lott conversion later if I feel the need...I doubt that I will.

Steven Dawson, I like the way you think! I already have the barrel band sight and swivel stud, and they will be going on shortly.

Now everyone please play nice.

John

I have tinkered with the Lott and the Win Mag.
1) 24" Browning Safari in the WM
2) 23" CZ 550 in the Lott

I ran the win mag up past 2200 FPS with 74 gr of AA2230 and settled back to 72.5 gr at 2170 FPS with 500 gr. My favorite load is 74 gr of AA2230 ahead of a 450 Swift which about shoots in the same hole @ 100yards at 2280 FPS.

I ran my lott up to 2340 FPS with AA2520 (500 gr) and settled back to a load at 2250.

Even at the extreme velocities in both these guns at +90 F heat I had no indication of sticky extraction.
My favorite is the Win Mag primarly because of the gun. The Browning Safari is a sweet handling gun and shoots lights out. Plenty of punch; duplicating the old NITRO english rounds.
I might add the last batch of Hornady 458WM superperformance ammo I tried ran 2120 FPS through my rifle @ +90F.
The Hornady 500 Lott ammo will shoot a honest 2300FPS in a 24" pipe.

EZ

quote:

Originally posted by Wismon:

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
ALL .458 WM factory throats are very long! The late Finn AAgaard, who tested factory ammo in five (5) different rifles revealed that his 23" custom barrel not only exceeded the others by a significant margin, including a 25" Winchester M70, but surpassed factory specs by about 100 fps! THAT particular load was from Federal which promised 2090 fps from a 24" and it made 2188 fps from his 23". The reason? His had a freebore about like the Lott...
www.bigbores.ca

.458 Only,

How does freebore bring about extra velocity with factory ammo? I could see that it would if you handload, because you could seat the bullets extra long and add powder, but how does it do it with factory ammo? What am I'm missing?

(I'm just asking to learn...)

[Edited to add:] Wait a minute I just reread that and it looks like you may be saying that Aargaard's custom barrel had a shorter throat than the factory rifles, hence (presumably) higher pressures and antendent higher velocities. Is that correct? Color me confused...

Yes, the last point is correct... a shorter throat in Aagaard's rifle resulted in higher velocities. His comment regarding that was he felt the very long freebore of factory .458 Winchesters was a mistake.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Fourbore;

You are, to make your own point, totally misrepresenting my position... and you KNOW it!

IF you've read my blogs, you know the reasons why I chose it. It had NOTHING to do with prejudice against the Lott, or any other .458-cal. for that matter. SO, STOP YOUR LYING, PLEASE!

I've explained myself quite clearly, on numerous occasions, on this board, as to the reasons for MY choice.

My handle ".458 Only" has little to do with a love affair with the .458 Win Mag. (Those who have my manual already know that) It has to do with my fondness for the .45-70 (.458") and its use in hunting for more than two decades. It has replaced (for me) cartridges like .338 WM, .340 WBY and .375 H&H, all of which I have lots of experience with. They are all excellent, but, in my experience, I've found the .45-70 to be better for where and how I hunt big game, like bear and moose. The .458 Win Mag is, in my view and for my purpose, an extension of that. Plus the fact, IF WANTED, I have the equivalent of the LOTT in the CZ.

THAT's IT!

Please stop misrepresenting my thoughts and reasons on this matter.

Also, I've a fondness for all true Big Bores up to a point, beyond that point I believe it's an exercise in futility, IMO, as ENOUGH is ENOUGH!

I'll NEVER hunt elephant, or buffalo, or lion, so I don't NEED a .458 Win Mag. I acknowledge that at the very outset in my manual on the .458 WM. BUT, I like it! I expect for the same reasons others like whatever they shoot... I have absolutely NO PROBLEM with that. More power to 'em...

But, I have a problem with you who, constantly bashes what others like!

It's NOT a question of the .458 Win Mag being insufficient for anything on this planet! WE ALL KNOW THAT! Or should... So, let's stop lying about that and admit the reason why we choose something is because we want it, or like it, or imagine we should.

My goodness, IF the 9.3 X 62mm (or 9.3 X 74R)is sufficient for eles with the right bullet from a good shot, why does anyone insist that the .458 WM isn't? They are being disingenuous (in plain english: A HYPOCRITE!)

I have NO PROBLEM with anyone who prefers a double, or a single-shot, or a Mauser, or a Remington, or a Winchester, or a Browning, or a custom, etc. OR, a .577 Tyrant

My last word on it... until my NEXT last word.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Fourbore it was what we refer to as a rhetorical question...Do you know what that means? Again another rhetorical question .

458 only,
OK, lets put all the blog and bashing aside and see if we can find some common ground.

Maybe I took you too serious about how you don't ever want to see the word LOTT on a WINCHESTER!

How about granting me that it would be nice if we could get both the Lott and WinMag chambered in the M70, regardless of what you or I think about each others favorite. Then we are both happy and money in the bank for Winchester.

NO PROBLEM?

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
458 only,
OK, lets put all the blog and bashing aside and see if we can find some common ground.

Maybe I took you too serious about how you don't ever want to see the word LOTT on a WINCHESTER!

How about granting me that it would be nice if we could get both the Lott and WinMag chambered in the M70, regardless of what you or I think about each others favorite. Then we are both happy and money in the bank for Winchester.

NO PROBLEM?

Agreed!

Excellent. This is good.

I see that JWM is going with the M70 and will keep it in WinMag. I think he will be happy with that choice, no matter what he does later.

With a load of H335 and 500 gr A-Square Dead Tough and monolithic Solids, I got my pals 458WM in a Win 70 to reach 2050fps on the chrony, which was more than enough recoil for me. The best reason for the Lott, IMHO, is the ease of handloading, rather than the speed increase.

Most know this, but since there was a shortage of Winchester M70s in 458 Lott I had 5 built. I received one of these yesterday!

It looks pretty good to me!












I have two more coming in a matte finish.

Michael

No offense intended, as these things are a matter of personal choice, but to my tastes the fore end on that rifle is too long and the barrel is too short.

Otherwise, I like it.

No offense taken--I stopped lugging around 24 inch barrels over 5 yrs ago. These are 22 inch barrels, and no more barrel is needed to accomplish the mission in a 458 Lott. So I had all 5 done with 22 inch barrels. The stock is a standard length for a full size Winchester M70.

Thanks however, they did turn out very nice guns, weights come in at 8.5 lbs. Of course they are way too long for me, so I won't be using them, but someone that wants a nice Winchester in 458 Lott, one that works and functions, RTG, will have some nice ones. Not only that, but I already have half dozen 458 Lotts, I don't need anymore.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
No offense intended, as these things are a matter of personal choice, but to my tastes the fore end on that rifle is too long and the barrel is too short.

Personally,I'm curious how hard it is to get down on the irons with such a high even comb.

quote:

Originally posted by TwoZero:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
No offense intended, as these things are a matter of personal choice, but to my tastes the fore end on that rifle is too long and the barrel is too short.

Personally,I'm curious how hard it is to get down on the irons with such a high even comb.

Very easy, throw the gun to your shoulder and the sights are there, on target, ready to go! Straight line stock, like all Winchesters are.

Michael