The older I get, the less I understand. Being 70, there's not a lot I understand anymore. Here's my latest puzzle, why is it O.K. for a DG rifle to have a 2 inch circle or more accuracy at 100 yards with the logic given that you can't hold the rifle any better than that? Adding the variation the rifle introduces to my inability to hold seems to me to make the case worse. The same with the size of the target, say a buffalo heart, if I'm trying for a high heart shot, any variation introduced by the rifle will simply make it less likely that I'll place the shot correctly. By the way, how do you manage a brain shot on a buffalo coming at you or facing you, if the bullet goes 2 inches high from my aim at the nose? What am I missing here?

well.. i'll say it..

on average, based off bullet diameter, big bores are GENERALLY (bolt guns) ... MORE accurate than mediums... a 2" group from a big bore, off the bench, with a scope, .. well, there's probably a problem with the sights or the sightor....


i am SURPRISED when a .458, with decent loads, isn't sub moa

jeffe

If a buffalo is coming at you say at 10 yards away and you are shooting 2 inch groups at 100 yards that should equate to you hitting him in area with .2 variance at 10 yards. I think that should be adequate.

My Double shoots within an inch at 50 meters. I haven't had a chance to take it to 100 meters yet but I bet it will be close. My bolt guns are MOA or Sub MOA.

Everyone wants pinpoint accuracy. But whether it is required or not depends on what DG you are hunting.

Precise shot placement is typically required more so for leopard and lion than buffalo, because buff are carrying a vital area that is so much bigger. But most leopard and lion are shot well under 100 yards, or even 50 yards. Assuming one doesn't screw up the shot, a 2" or 3" group at 100 yards is close enough.

Sub MOA groups are nice for the confidence building side but are not really needed for typical DG hunting.

But one can always try to blame the rifle for shooting a buffalo in the hoof.

I always make sure my dangerous game rifles shoots to a minute-of-buffalo!

Never regretted this decision.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
well.. i'll say it..

on average, based off bullet diameter, big bores are GENERALLY (bolt guns) ... MORE accurate than mediums... a 2" group from a big bore, off the bench, with a scope, .. well, there's probably a problem with the sights or the sightor....


i am SURPRISED when a .458, with decent loads, isn't sub moa

jeffe

My experience is 180 degrees from this.....my small bores are always much more accurate than my big bores......but I suspect this is related to the shootermore so than the guns themselves!

I want my plains game (read deer) rifles to shoot 300 yards with confidence and this requires about 1.25" groups at 100 yards!

The big bores make me happy when I can consistantly hit a target the size of a baseball at 50 yards shooting free hand! I have no wish or desire to sit at a bench with them.....I don't like pain!

I've built quite a few custom rifles for customers including some big bores. 375's 458's etc. I've always been amazed at how well the big bores shoot. Which is, every bit as well as the other hunting rifles, as long as the shooter isn't flinching. I like the 375/338 and have built quite a few. Most have shot under an inch. I took one out to the range with the customer last week & he also was amazed at the <1" groups. He claims it's the most accurate rifle he owns now & he has quite a few nice guns.
I think a rifle should be as accurate as possible, & especially a dangerous game gun. Why not? If the "pucker factor" already hampers a well placed shot, why add to that margin of error with a rifle that isn't very accurate? Some may disagree and have

All mine are MOA, just turned out that way.

Of, course it is a little painful off the bench to verify this .

Dak

IMHO, a bolt action rifle,regardless of caliber, should group 1 inch or less at 100 yards from a good rest.

At a 100 yards all my 458's are as accurate as my 300's. All are over the counter uncustomized models. Haven't shot the 458's past about 100 yards but I expect they will be fairly consistant and maybe even more tolerable to crosswinds at greater distances just due to the idea of more wieght in motion. R.

Half-minute accuracy, while pleasant to observe, is in no way superior to one-minute accuracy in any serious rifle.
Jeff Cooper

First of all 2MOA gun is fine for ANYTHING. Period. Since I've also actually shot a buff in the head, the answer is simple. Aim two inches low! Ha HA! Oh Yes, you will shoot incredibly accuratly when all MBOGO is 10 feet from your keister and closing fast! -Rob

I have shot most of the very few DG animals that I have hunted, except leopard, off my hind legs, sometimes with the aid of sticks, sometimes without.

The longest shot I have taken at a DG animal has been a measured 96 yards. The shortest has been 15.

Two MOA is plenty accurate for that kind of shooting. But like most who have posted so far, I expect and get better from my rifles.

A well practiced, field position shooter, with a 4moa rifle. Will in the field, most likely out shoot the guy who only shoots from the bench wiht his 1/2moa rifle.

While it is great if your rifle will shoot sub-moa. It will not matter, if you do not have the honed skills needed to shoot game in the field. From shooting off of sticks, braced against a tree, or on your own two hind legs. Without practice, someone could miss their shot by feet, not inches.

Keith

My 416 taylor cuts one ragged hole with most loads its nice to have but isn't need for Min. of buff as Saeed says.

IMO, 90% of the big bore rifles will shoot tighter than most people can shoot under field conditions. All the bench practice in the world will not make you shoot better from your hind legs. My advice is, work up a load,zero your scope, or regulate you iron sights, then leave tht bench to people who punch nothing more dangerous that a paper target!

Keith is right, a good field shooter will shoot the pants off a bench shooter, in the field, even with a 3 or 4 MOA rifle!

I expect big bore bolt action rifles to shoot MOA. Mine all do. I use the PAST recoil shield while working up loads off the bench if needed.

Only one-hole-accurate (1/2 MOA) rifle I own right now is a .505 Gibbs.

I recon being able to shoot a 6" group at 25 yards is more than adequate. The real import thing is to be able to do so in under 1.5 seconds starting with gun at ready (port arms) safety on.

Excellent big bore practice is to shoot as quickly as possible from a port arms possition at a paper plate at 25 yrds twice. Then try the plate attached to a rolling tire. It's way harder than it sounds. Great way to become humble. You'll also understand why the double is KING.
BTW- try a ECOTECH sight on the double and you'll be amazed at the improvement. One sight plane.-Rob

I like a rifle to shoot at least 1" off the bench at 100 yards, I want my double rifles to do that at 25 and 50 yards with irons. I just might want to stick a bullet in somethings eye if he is coming for me and I don't know any Buffalo, Lions or elephants with sockerball size eyeballs.

I care not what anyone requires for accuracy for themselves, but I do know what I want for myself, and don't think I should take a scolding because someone else thinks a basket ball size group is fine. I never did buy of boddingtons minute of grapefruit, although I do respect his opinnion, I choose more rather than less accuracy.

I will remember these posts and the next gun I get that shoots a basketball size group I will call upon these gentle to take it off my hands at a fair and equitable price.

My guns are very accurate and so should yours be IMO...

Ray, you know that it really boils down to what the SHOOTER can do, more than what a rifle will do off of the bench.

Kind of like a half ass rope chunker, on a $100,000 roping horse. Getting beat by Joe Beaver on a $1,000 pony. It is the man, not how extra good whatever it is he is using, that makes the real difference. I agree that a great shooter with a great rifle is the best combo.

Everyone should be practicing "field conditions" with their big bores, as much as possible. On things other than bullseye targets. "Cause critters ain't got circles drawn on 'em."

Keith

Try this for a big bore practice drill. Drill a small (1/8") hole in the rim of a clay bird. Hang them by a wire over the edge of cardboard box. Then from 15-30yds, make a snap shot as Ganyana and Rob are talking about. Do this free hand, no bench, no sticks, no rest of any kind, and either you break them with the shot, or it is a miss. This is a 4" dia. target. Kind of like a frontal brain shot. It is always better to practice harder/smaller target, shots than you might get in the field. Then when it counts, you "know" you can "Get'r done". Try this at 50yds off of sticks, and see if it is the rifle or shooter that needs the most precision.

Keith

Hi Guys

Ballistically speaking the larger calibre rifles generally should shoot more consistent groups than a medium/small calibre as bullet concentricity etc is easier to achieve. Recoil and flinch cause the problem with groups opening up. Most tiny groupings are achived with large calibre rifles after muzzel breaks, recoil dampers and weight have been added to tame recoil. Non of these things are practical in the field. 2" groups at 100 yds are fine. Once a DG rifle is zero then all practice should be quick offhand shooting at 25 yds and using sticks/offhand at 50yds. I know I cant shoot decent groups offhand at 100yds with open safari sights once I get over 30 cal.

Mark

I had a 1x5 Leupold on my .500 A-Sq. before I replaced it with a 1x Burris. I was sighting in the Leo using cast bullets and 37 grains of XMP 5744 for some low-velocity fun ammo. I fired two shots and lay there on the ground looking through the scope trying to figure out how I could possibly miss the target at 100 yards. After I easily hit the thing right where I wanted to. Me and the wife walked out to the target. I just couldn't get over my crappy shooting until the wife told me to look carefully at the hole. She said it did not look exactly perfectly round. She was right. It was ever so slightly off-round. I had put two 575 grain cast bullets through the same hole.

If I could only do that when firing as fast as I could for 2-3 rounds, I'd be a happy camper.