An interesting discussion broke out on the medium bore section. It was brought out that 2400 fps. muzzle velocity is all that is needed for most medium game calibers. I must admit that my higher velocity craving could be the reason why I have had problems with some name brand non-premium bullets (I.E. Sierra)not holding together. My question is this: Do you experienced african hunters prefer a DG/big bore cartridge to push a bullet as fast as it reasonalbly can or is the 2150 fps. rule adequate for you?

You match the bullet to the vel. Much more than 2250fps & I think you are just adding a lot more recoil w/ heavy bullets. You'll get plenty of penetration w/ a good solid @ that speed in just about any bore size. On expanding bullets, as long as the bullet holds together, the penetration will also be there. I run my 404j @ 2250fps w/ a 380grNF & there is plenty of room left for more, the bullet will not fail, but recoil starts to get to be a problem for me pushing 2400fps so I am fine right there. It has hammered two buff w/ one shot each & devistating on anything smaller too.

I find that anything between 2300 to 2450 fps is ideal.

I think I posted this incorrectly. Hypothetically, if you could stand the recoil, would you push a 500 gr. (non-solid) bullet at 2900 fps.?

Go read the tread on the .600Ok with 750gr bullets. You can easily get 2750fps. The 12GaFh will push a 1000gr bullet over 3000fps and yes you can withstand the recoil with the right gun.
You match the bullet to the velocity. At those speeds your talking brass and copper solids. Remember a .620 hole is what a .458 hopes to become on expansion.-Rob

Rae59,
I understood your meaning. I would drive them between 2300 to 2450 fps as I stated previously. I assumed you are interesting in hunting loads, right? I have driven 416 Rigby loads to over 3000 fps with 300gr Barnes, but I would not hunt with a load like that as the Barnes X will not hold up well at those kind of impact velocities.

ScottS, you are correct in assuming i'm referring to hunting loads. I would like to know if you guys feel that the higher the velocity the better the killing power?

Like re-inventing the wheel everyday!

Go read John Taylor. His KO values are about as real as it gets.

And you have to have velocity to have penetration.

If you are shooting sub-max loads might as well use a smaller cartridge and lighter rifle.

so will, shooting 300 gr 375 H&H at say 2375 one might as well get a smaller load/rifle because its not 2550?

Depends on the caliber, the bullet, and the game. For the .375, the .416 and the .458 I tend to use a slightly lighter bullet driven at speed ... unless DG is in play and then only slightly lighter in the .416.

For DG and the .470 I tend to use the standard weight bullet (.375 = 300 gr, .458 = 500 gr, and .470 = 500 gr).

Why? Just a pattern that developed over time. Very good bullets can be driven hard, but the additional velocity isn't that helpful or increases recoil and that can reduce the quickness of a second shot.

quote:

Originally posted by jsl3170:
so will, shooting 300 gr 375 H&H at say 2375 one might as well get a smaller load/rifle because its not 2550?

Bingo. You have asked the perfect example.

The energy of the 300 gr. bullet at 2375 fps is 3757 ft-lbs, basically the same as a 9.3x62 cartridge load.

The 300 gr. bullet from a 9.3x62 should be going about 2370 fps or the velocity in your example!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And "in theory" the 9.3x62 bullet should have better penetration.

Please send all cash non-tax deductible donations to my Center for Brilliance at the address below.

quote:

The 12GaFh will push a 1000gr bullet over 3000fps and yes you can withstand the recoil with the right gun.

Rob, any video available of the 12gafh in action? This I gotta see!!

usually, NO, with the exceptions being those handful of rounds towards thre lower end of the ideals
imho
bigbores should "make spec/book", or, generally with jacketed bullets, a .3+SD at 2150-2400 mv. there are exceptions. generally, except for modern rounds, pressures are far less than "normal" for mediums

look, 3000 fps is normal for mediums, usually with an sd of .25 or lower. going 3100 sounds cool, but makes no difference, as far as game is concerned, from 2950

in big bore, with two notable exceptions, anyone can make book loads or reach that plateau i mentioned, easily. past 2400 mv, the bullets are generally destroyed by impact... not what a big bore shooter wants most of the time. mono bullets are an exception

when cartridges historically struggle to make these ideal, they tend to bred fanatics.
most big bores have no trouble making saami/cip spec / designers specified load/vel ... and in most cases, you COULD get another xxx fps

but why? if you want/need more, get a bigger gun

Rae,
why dont you come to the hoot n shoot in 2 weeks and see big bores yourself? you are invited

quote:

Very good bullets can be driven hard, but the additional velocity isn't that helpful or increases recoil and that can reduce the quickness of a second shot.

+1

Just because you have the ability to drive a bullet faster than anyone thought possible, doesn't mean you need to do that.

I'm not one to try and wretch every Foot Per Sec. I can out of a round. Just the way I am. I prefer to try to use each bullet within it's design parameters to achive the best accuracy, performence and penetration for a quick kill on a particular game animal.

I try to keep my big bore bullets below 2900 fps because fouling is less that way.

Yes. A harder smack is always more telling than a weaker one.

With the stipulations that:

1. Maximum velocity in a true big bore hunting rifle of .458 caliber or more is generally 2,500-2,600 fps; and

2. To take advantage of it, you had better use good bullets!

quote:

Originally posted by Rae59:
I think I posted this incorrectly. Hypothetically, if you could stand the recoil, would you push a 500 gr. (non-solid) bullet at 2900 fps.?

The answer is no. Assuming you can stand the recoil, as in your hypothetical, better to push a bigger diameter, heavier bullet slower. So rather than a, say, .458" 500gr bullet at 2900fps, its better imo to push a 570gr .510" bullet at ~2100fps or better, or to maintain the comparable recoil, an even larger diameter/weight bullet at at least 2100fps.

You will have more impact effect, more knockdown and knockout effect (a harder smack as Mrlexma puts it), though less penetration.

As Will said, you need the velocity for penetration, but 2100fps or better provides enough, so long as the bullet is SD +.300 or so.

JPK

A MAJOR advantage of a solid copper cup point bullet is that you can drive it at very high velocities and it will expand, but not so much that penetration is dramatically diminished like cup and core lead bullets. While expensive, If you want to stem to stern a ELE you need all the velocity you can get and a bullet that wont come apart. Brass wont deform, but wont expand at all. Copper is the optimum bullet when you want both deep penetration and expansion.IMHO.-Rob

hey will - here is my caveat: i don't know what the hell I am talking about because I have never hunted DG! Never stopped me from talking though... at any rate, I believe it was Kevin Robertson who noted the 300 gr 375 at the really short distances; e.g. 25 yards noted the bullet had a tendency to yaw which can negatively impact penetration. He claims to that when the same bullet is slowed down to say 2350 ish the bullet sets up better and can actually be overpenetrative depending upon the target animal.

I remain a total convert to the basic principals of First ACCURATE SHOOTING, the highest possible velocity, Biggest bullet diameter and heavy Monolithic Copper bullets. If you REALLY know how to shoot, you can withstand any level of recoil for 3 shots! Dont confuse fear of recoil with the fact the person really doesnt know how to shoot a big bore. I and others here have had lots of real DG experience with this combo and it works. Go read CCMDocs POST! Yes, it may be overkill, but things go wrong when you hunt DG and its nice to have full confidence in being able to make a Portugese Heart shot that can take the molars out of a bull Ele.-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by jsl3170:
hey will - here is my caveat: i don't know what the hell I am talking about because I have never hunted DG! Never stopped me from talking though... at any rate, I believe it was Kevin Robertson who noted the 300 gr 375 at the really short distances; e.g. 25 yards noted the bullet had a tendency to yaw which can negatively impact penetration. He claims to that when the same bullet is slowed down to say 2350 ish the bullet sets up better and can actually be overpenetrative depending upon the target animal.

That's bullet design and not velocity per se. I am a big believer in Robertson being full of poop - the shot placement guide for example.

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
Rae59,
I understood your meaning. I would drive them between 2300 to 2450 fps as I stated previously. I assumed you are interesting in hunting loads, right? I have driven 416 Rigby loads to over 3000 fps with 300gr Barnes, but I would not hunt with a load like that as the Barnes X will not hold up well at those kind of impact velocities.

Zero D/G exerience but thought I'd mention that the old .416 300 X bullet held up perfectly at 2950 fps. Broke both shoulders of a decent bull Elk and weighed 288 on recovery. Very surprised to get it back but it was under the hide on the far side.

I prefer big bore cartridges to push a bullet as fast as it reasonably can. Fore example I prefer the .416 Rigby over the .404 Jeffery because it reaches 5000 ft-lbs of muzzle energy without a strain. However, I dont push a 400 gr .416" bullet much over the 2400 fps plane. On the over hand, I idle the .500 Schuler Jumbo down as safe as possible.

I probably approach loading from a different perspective than most. I don't own nor have ever used a chronograph so rely strictly on the book for velocities. I usually start somewhere around mid load and work up from there till I get a load that shoots well for me. That's generally where I stop. It will ALWAYS be below the max load. I have been loading this way for well over 50 years and have taken most of the normal game animals of the planet except the big bears. Have lost very few animals in fact can probably number them on one hand. I rarely experiment with bullets and use Nosler Partitions if they are available in the caliber I am loading. If Noslers are not then I usually use Woodleighs in the larger calibers. I load for everything from 17's to 470's. I also usually settle on as few powders as i can get by with. I am particularly partial to IMR4350 for everything you can use it for. Have started to use some Alliant powders as my Granddaughter is a Rocket Scientist with ATK and she gave me some. Works for me.

In caliber .458, properly constructed 450 and 500 grain bullets will penetrate anything that needs penetrating if driven at 2100 or 2200 fps. That includes elephant heads and buffalo Texas heart shots. There is no point in driving them faster. All it does is increase recoil which makes you likely to flinch and harms accuracy.

Incidentally, don't get accuracy confused with MOA stuff. Ever see an experienced African hunter miss a whole eoephant? Twice? I have.

My opinion: Reliability and function at short range is more important than maximum velocity, especially if the range is rapidly shortening.

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
In caliber .458, properly constructed 450 and 500 grain bullets will penetrate anything that needs penetrating if driven at 2100 or 2200 fps. That includes elephant heads and buffalo Texas heart shots. There is no point in driving them faster. All it does is increase recoil which makes you likely to flinch and harms accuracy.

Incidentally, don't get accuracy confused with MOA stuff. Ever see an experienced African hunter miss a whole eoephant? Twice? I have.

My opinion: Reliability and function at short range is more important than maximum velocity, especially if the range is rapidly shortening.

Also increasing the speed increases also pressure and we must be careful.

Oscar.

Yeah, no point in pushing anything. Just take the bullets in hand and throw them at DG!

Okay, I might not be the brightest bulb in the house here, but I am really confused. From what I have read here, it is best to get the max velocity of any big bore, and if you don't you might as well go to a smaller cartridge..okay, so now for the confusion. If I have a 416 Taylor and in my rifle 2400 is max with a 400 gr. bullet than that is adequate for dangerous game. Now if I have a 416 Weatherby that I can push the same bullet at 2600+, but choose to load it down to 2400, then I might as well just use the 416 Taylor, because the Weatherby is not being loaded to its full potential. So does that mean that the Weatherby shooting a 400 gr. 416 caliber bullet at 2400 is not a good killer, and I should stay with the Taylor, because its max load is 2400 with a 400 gr. 416 caliber bullet, and that makes it a good cartridge? Never mind, time to reach for the Excederin and try and understand Einstein's Theory of Relativity....might be less stressful!

A quote from "African Rifles and Cartridges" by John Taylor.

"Consequently, if you are trying to make a choice between two rifles of approximately similar power, other things being equal, always choose the one that shows the lower chamber pressure." end quote.

Rodney.

quote:

Originally posted by congomike:
Okay, I might not be the brightest bulb in the house here, but I am really confused. From what I have read here, it is best to get the max velocity of any big bore, and if you don't you might as well go to a smaller cartridge..okay, so now for the confusion. If I have a 416 Taylor and in my rifle 2400 is max with a 400 gr. bullet than that is adequate for dangerous game. Now if I have a 416 Weatherby that I can push the same bullet at 2600+, but choose to load it down to 2400, then I might as well just use the 416 Taylor, because the Weatherby is not being loaded to its full potential. So does that mean that the Weatherby shooting a 400 gr. 416 caliber bullet at 2400 is not a good killer, and I should stay with the Taylor, because its max load is 2400 with a 400 gr. 416 caliber bullet, and that makes it a good cartridge? Never mind, time to reach for the Excederin and try and understand Einstein's Theory of Relativity....might be less stressful!

Basically what you need is 5000 ft-lb. Hey, if it only required 100 ft-lb I'd be using that!

So the Taylor at 2400 ft/s is 5000 ft-lb with 400 gr. bullets. Nothing wrong with using a Weatherby but the recoil in a lightweight rifle is just more than I need!!!!!