Well, as Ray is probably busy editing/deleting his 18.600 posts, I think he'll most likely be tied up for a while before posting here again...

quote:

Originally posted by MartinPotts:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Mike .. lol just say 45/70 on the African forum
or big bore forum and sit back and grab some popcorn

You forgot the words "lever action" as well

but all in all you hit that nail on the head!!!

vapodog
LOL your right 45/70 lever action

Martin, let me ask you, where do most people who would consider useing a 45-70, or lever action in Africa come from? Most come from general North American deer hunting forums. They only come here when they start thinking of what they consider to be a REAL big bore rifle, and they think would be the nuts for big nasty African dangerous game. If you go to the General hunting forums on the so-called whitetail web-sites, and do a name search of the folks who start strings about how good the 45-70 is, on an African hunting forum, you will find they posted there long before they ever came on an African hunting fourm!

It only stands to reason people, who have been there, are going to point out that this isn't a great idea. If you go back through all the srtings where the 45-70 are the theme, you will notice it is the 45-70 poster who gets upset,and he starts the name calling, when everyone disagrees with his idea. That is what I meant by that section of my post. You can go to any deer hunter's, or political forum, any place, and you will need a flack jacket. I believe it is the nature of most people who like those forums,especially the political forums, to fight about everything, instead of discussing!

That, however, is not the only problem with folks picking a name out of the hat to jump on! I understand that Ray can be a little caustic, at times, but so can most here, certainly me included, I don't deny that fact! It seems to me that the two main "cussers" in this little fiasco, are never positive, no matter the string, or what it pertains to. Both are good guys,IMO, but are simply negative personalities, that simply must take the opposite view on any subject. You can do a search on either of these of these men's posts, and then tell me how many positive posts you find. Both men are very knowledgable, IMO, but simply must take the bumpiest road to get to any destination, in any string, on any subject. There seems to be no middle ground with some people.

Since I have no dog in the fight between Ray, and Sheephunter, I'll not read the string, and make judgements, based on "he said/she said" crap since, like most others, I was not there, and also like others, I don't know which side is telling the truth.

I have done business with Ray on hand shake, and he has never shown me anything but honesty. These transactions were not hunting, but involved a lot of us Dollars, none the less. I have never booked any hunting through Ray, But I would dearly love to hunt with Pierre Von Tonder, for Buffalo, in the tall grass!

RAY, and I disagree on a lot of things, mostly on things haveing to do with double rifles. Some of the things he says about the way doubles work are simply wrong,and are provabley wrong, yet he persists. I can live with him haveing that opinion, without calling him names, or doubting his experience! It seems some can't! That's all, in the final analysis, I was trying to convey about the gang banging going on here!

The very first time i heard of someone using a 45/70 in Africa was a perosn i know from
Rwanda his name is also Martin he was born there and is now in his mid 60's and lives here and in town.

But i am sure you wanted me to say somthing other then that like Texas or some other part of the US .

I am glad you and Ray get along .. But what does this have to do with me and the 45/70
or for that matter me and the 700 Hubel express
or the 9.3x64 or the 2 bore or 4 bore or any other bullet diameter or rifle ..

quote:

RAY, and I disagree on a lot of things, mostly on things haveing to do with double rifles. Some of the things he says about the way doubles work are simply wrong,and are provabley wrong, yet he persists. I can live with him haveing that opinion, without calling him names, or doubting his experience! It seems some can't! That's all, in the final analysis,

And ? do you think i was implying anything else ? To cut to the chase NO i was not .. other then some time ray would get my ? hackels
up .when i do know for a fact something do work and somethings dont work ..

Ray can be a hand full but he added to the board and its going to be a good day when he comes back ...Save him ranting on about his 9.3x62 over the 9.3x64 Or his pick of bullet's

I have my reasons ..why he and i dont see eye to eye on alot of things incuding bullets
Bulletsmiths.Info Forums Promoting the Art of Bullet Making

Thats all i am saying Mac

Martin

Martin, I used your post because of what you quoted, not to ragg on you. I simply am a computer illeterate, and have no idea how to post qoutes for several people, from several posts, on a single post.

As I said I disagree with RAY on a lot of things, but that is no reason for me to attack him on subjects, I have no knowledge about. That is what prompted my origenal post on this string. It seems to me too many people get very angry, and hold grudges against anyone who disagrees with them. All I was trying to say is, I don't think it is right to think everything a person does, or says is suspect, simply because he disagrees with me, and I believe that is the case here. Not necessarily with anyone person here but generally. As someone said, the thing is going to court, if I read right. To me, this is the time to stop all the opinion, and hearsay, and let the courts decide it! These strings can be copied and used in court, and these posts are not evidence, IMO! I certainly do not want to be responsible for the outcome of anyone's trial. You know in This country, one is supposed to be considered ennocent till PROVEN guilty. Simply because one person claims foul play, doesn't make it true.

If my standing up for the right to be considered innocent, makes some angry, then so be it. IMO, that is what all you guys should be doing, instead of muddying the waters with "I THINK" instead of "I KNOW"!

Mac were just two guys talking here nothing more buddy .. dont read any more into it .

Martin

Mac,

The fallacy in your argument, when taken in the context of an internet forum, is that you and many others are quite happy when people jump all over the likes of Carmelo.

In my opinion anyone who posts on these forums has to be prepared to get bashed from time to time. That is the nature of all forums whether for guns or whatever subject.

It may well be that Atkinson has been completely wronged on the forums, but that could also and in fact would apply to others as well....but rightly or wrongly that is the nature of all forums.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Mike378:
Mac,

The fallacy in your argument, when taken in the context of an internet forum, is that you and many others are quite happy when people jump all over the likes of Carmelo.

In my opinion anyone who posts on these forums has to be prepared to get bashed from time to time. That is the nature of all forums whether for guns or whatever subject.

It may well be that Atkinson has been completely wronged on the forums, but that could also and in fact would apply to others as well....but rightly or wrongly that is the nature of all forums.

Mike

I have never jumped all over Carmelo either. The only thing I've told him was the 45-70 was illegal because it did not come up to the energy levels to comply with the law. In fact I post on Carmelo's website sometimes. I personly think folks are a little hard on him as well. As Ive often said I don't find Ray to be infalable, and absolutely disagree with him on many things, but I know where good manners end, and harassment begines!

I understand that some here are pissed at Ray, and are willing to go the long mile to make it worse for him. That, to me, only makes the attacker look as bad as the person he is trying to discredit!

In any event, I'm through with this!

Maybe Ray and Carmelo are starting their own forum. Now, that would be fun to read.

quote:

Originally posted by Vinny:
Maybe Ray and Carmelo are starting their own forum. Now, that would be fun to read.

Why not ask him,them?

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

In fact I post on Carmelo's website sometimes. I personly think folks are a little hard on him as well.

Mac

Poo Poo, poor Caramello!

Perhaps I should visit WorldWanker and re-post some of his more choice comments on AR on this thread. He runs a forum of filth where he controls who says what and users it to slander members of AR.

As for the membership there, it has been VERY quiet as Caramello is obviously away or too busy to post himself. A lot of his "other members" always seem to do the same when Caramello is away (ie not seem to be able to post).

quote:

I understand that some here are pissed at Ray, and are willing to go the long mile to make it worse for him. That, to me, only makes the attacker look as bad as the person he is trying to discredit!

My attitude is if a guy makes up a lot of crap, posts it endlessly, starts to believe his own lies and bullshit, then carries on and insults other members based on his foundation of expert bullshit, calls others "wannabes", "henny pennies", "creeps" etc, then maybe eventually people get fed up and start telling the truth.

Personally I tell my "stories" as they are. I don't need to stand on a pile of bullshit.

Vinny I would think that comparing Ray and carmello--saying they should start there own forum makes you sound kinf of like--AN IDIOT

quote:

Originally posted by ErikD:
Well, as Ray is probably busy editing/deleting his 18.600 posts, I think he'll most likely be tied up for a while before posting here again...

I wonder what it would cost to get the lawyer to do that for him.

Is everybody havin' a beer...?
Or do we all have 'typo' fever? Man, the spelling on this Forum is ATROCIOUS!

I noticed a couple of things here in this thread, maybe more.

One is that it is the BIG BORE FORUM.
Mac, ( and, dang it, this is not a personal attack, OK? ) you must admit, you said something about it being the 'AFRICAN' forum, and that it is not.

quote:

...and do a name search of the folks who start strings about how good the 45-70 is, on an African hunting forum, you will find they posted there long before they ever came on an African hunting fourm!

A lot of people come to this particular place to look up information on big bores.
The statement about the .45-70 not meeting 'energy' requirements is purely mathematical, and apparently has nothing to do with what a 500-gr. projectile will do to an animal, regardless of the 'energy' numbers, velocity, launcher, etc.

I started a thread about this very subject in order to determine if this is just a claim by an ammo mfg. or 'mathematically' MOOT.
If it's a BIG BORE, and it arrives on target, is it going to do the KILL or not?
I don't care what sent the projectile, be it the cartridge case, energy numbers, or the rifle itself...is it gonna KILL the animal the same way or not?

Again, as mentioned, sometimes people post on the internet and are either misread as to their intentions because the 'intent' is not understood or the replies to their post are equally misunderstood, fostering an argument.

I merely seek the Truth about the END RESULT of a .45 caliber or larger bullet on game.

quote:

Originally posted by BusMaster007:
Is everybody havin' a beer...?
Or do we all have 'typo' fever? Man, the spelling on this Forum is ATROCIOUS!

I noticed a couple of things here in this thread, maybe more.

One is that it is the BIG BORE FORUM.
Mac, ( and, dang it, this is not a personal attack, OK? ) you must admit, you said something about it being the 'AFRICAN' forum, and that it is not.

quote:

...and do a name search of the folks who start strings about how good the 45-70 is, on an African hunting forum, you will find they posted there long before they ever came on an African hunting fourm!

A lot of people come to this particular place to look up information on big bores.
The statement about the .45-70 not meeting 'energy' requirements is purely mathematical, and apparently has nothing to do with what a 500-gr. projectile will do to an animal, regardless of the 'energy' numbers, velocity, launcher, etc.

I started a thread about this very subject in order to determine if this is just a claim by an ammo mfg. or 'mathematically' MOOT.
If it's a BIG BORE, and it arrives on target, is it going to do the KILL or not?
I don't care what sent the projectile, be it the cartridge case, energy numbers, or the rifle itself...is it gonna KILL the animal the same way or not?

Again, as mentioned, sometimes people post on the internet and are either misread as to their intentions because the 'intent' is not understood or the replies to their post are equally misunderstood, fostering an argument.

I merely seek the Truth about the END RESULT of a .45 caliber or larger bullet on game.

What? Who? When?

Someone's having a beer..........or three.

quote:

Originally posted by BusMaster007:
A lot of people come to this particular place to look up information on big bores.

Big Bores? Well this thread is titled "Where is Ray?"


Only a joke.

quote:

Originally posted by Mickey1:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BusMaster007:
Is everybody havin' a beer...?
Or do we all have 'typo' fever? Man, the spelling on this Forum is ATROCIOUS!

I noticed a couple of things here in this thread, maybe more.


What? Who? When?

Someone's having a beer..........or three.

Actually, it was 2.5! I had to share with the Wife...

Spelling---?

aggravation
aggravated
heckelers
wounderfully
hyadis
harassment begines
computer illeterate
whiping dog ( ...my favorite!)

quote:

Mike .. lol just say 45/70 on the African forum
or big bore forum and sit back and grab some popcorn...

quote:

You forgot the words "lever action" as well but all in all you hit that nail on the head!!!

quote:

Not a feeding frenzy, just people finally getting the balls to say what is really on their minds. IMO. ITS ABOUT TIME...

quote:

I understand that Ray can be a little caustic, at times, but so can most here...

quote:

I simply am a computer illeterate, and have no idea how to post qoutes for several people, from several posts, on a single post...

And, with that, I must say I agreed with Ray --- TWICE!!

quote:

Originally posted by BusMaster007:
Is everybody havin' a beer...?
Or do we all have 'typo' fever? Man, the spelling on this Forum is ATROCIOUS!

I noticed a couple of things here in this thread, maybe more.

One is that it is the BIG BORE FORUM.
Mac, ( and, dang it, this is not a personal attack, OK? ) you must admit, you said something about it being the 'AFRICAN' forum, and that it is not.

quote:

...and do a name search of the folks who start strings about how good the 45-70 is, on an African hunting forum, you will find they posted there long before they ever came on an African hunting fourm!

A lot of people come to this particular place to look up information on big bores.
The statement about the .45-70 not meeting 'energy' requirements is purely mathematical, and apparently has nothing to do with what a 500-gr. projectile will do to an animal, regardless of the 'energy' numbers, velocity, launcher, etc.

I started a thread about this very subject in order to determine if this is just a claim by an ammo mfg. or 'mathematically' MOOT.
If it's a BIG BORE, and it arrives on target, is it going to do the KILL or not?
I don't care what sent the projectile, be it the cartridge case, energy numbers, or the rifle itself...is it gonna KILL the animal the same way or not?

Again, as mentioned, sometimes people post on the internet and are either misread as to their intentions because the 'intent' is not understood or the replies to their post are equally misunderstood, fostering an argument.

I merely seek the Truth about the END RESULT of a .45 caliber or larger bullet on game.

BUSMASTER007, does it make you feel big, and important to point out the typeing mistakes, and disabilities of others? It must, because that is all you ever do, with your posts.

First of all, it is considered very bad manners to point out someone's spelling, on the internet, but it is very impolite to point that out without even thinking there may be a reason for this. In my case I suffer from severe Dyslexia, causeing me to transpose letters, and numbers, and makes it almost imposible for me to spell correctly, because my mind travels three or four letters ahead of my fingers. That is OK however, as I'm used to ignorant people calling attention to it. Most, here, are aware of this, but it is evident you didn't know, or simply didn't care.

Now, to the mention of the African safari forum, and the 45-70, in this string. That was to make a point as that is where the controvercy started, and I was disucssing this with the same people who post on both forums. I don't normally mention names, but in this case,because you like mention names, you were one of the people I was speaking of, comming here from general hunting forums, with deer hunting experience, trying to tell those who have hunted African game game, how it is done, and that your deer rifles are up to the mark on game you have never hunted. Then get upset when someone differs with your opinion. your action, is like a Taxi driver trying to tell you how to drive your bus! I'm sure there are taxi drivers who can drive busses as well, but if they can't you would pick up on their ignorance quickly, if they tried to tell you how.

BUSMASTER007, I really don't know why you always take the opposite road to any conclusion, than everyone else, but you do. I suggest, here again, you do a name search of your own posts,re-read them,then come back, and tell us how many of them are of a positive nature, or agree with even 1/3 of the folks posting on the subjects involved. I believe you will notice something you, either, weren't aware of, or it will tell you, you really do know it all, depending on how honestly critical you are of your own writeing!

In the final analysis, it really doesn't make any difference, what you think of me, or anyone here, or on the African forum, that is your right, but I think before you start trying to bring others down, you need to look very closely in the mirror. IMO, anyone who can't get along with anyone else, the problem just might be in his own skin. Please, in future, do not read anything with my screen name attatched. Just scroll on by! It will do me a favor, and it will save you a lot of typeing!

I know I got a bit stubborn about some of the data I'd dig up -- drew some (to me) benign conclusions. Tried to figure out Ray's opinion because I thought it reflected experience. Likely it did -- not all experience can be codified into a coherent whole. But it was interesting because it made it easy for him to disagree with just about anybody :-). In any case, I thought something was up when he even seemed to loose interest in bickering with me (last thing I remember was a comment that quoting reloading data won't win an argument about the magnitude of the virtues of the Lott over the Winchester, whereas I noted that the data simply showed a real but modest improvement). But that's the kind of thing.

I also recall he made some good comments about picking aiming points on those buffalo pics that were posted a while back (where to shoot). I'll miss that.

I found the threads he participated in involving double rifles to be useful.

The dispute over the hunt is a difficulty. Only a few folks were there. Everyone elses experience involved their own hunts -- which were different. It sounds like there were some exceptional circumstances in this hunt that just didn't pan out -- with reputations and $'s riding on it. I think I know better than to try to judge from where I sit. It is impossible not to understand the tensions and depths of feelings surrounding this very public dispute.

Dan

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

BUSMASTER007, I really don't know why you always take the opposite road to any conclusion...

To answer your question, I, too, have a birth defect...I was a BREECH BIRTH and I've been going that way ever since.
Then there's the part about the six-fingers on each hand at birth...
And, AB+ blood.
ALL of that is The Truth.

Now that you've told me you have dyslexia, I am no longer ignorant of that fact. It must be frustrating for you at times, both the dyslexia and the fact that I'm not ignorant...

As for 'why' I posted the misssspelinngs, Mickey1 asked What? Who? When?
It 'sounded' as funny as some of the spelling looked, so I posted about it.

I try to post and spell accurately, and since this is the only place people see the 'internet persona' of most of the members, I figure it's worth the effort to do it as correctly as possible, even if I'm not 100% successful at it.

I pointed out the fact that this is not the African Forum, it's the Big Bore Forum. It is.

I haven't seen the prerequisite posted that says everyone that posts here has to be an experienced hunter, because there isn't one and not everyone is.
I'd guess a lot of people come here seeking advice and information because they are wanting to learn from the more experienced posters.

I've unabashedly shared the fact of my inexperience because it's nothing to be ashamed of.
Another thing I'll share is that while raising my kids and working full time with overtime so my wife can stay home with the kids...I have assembled my firearms collection to be as versatile as possible.
The reason I haven't been able to hunt much, if at all, is because I'm too busy working...and raising kids...hoping that when I get the chance to hunt, I'll have the guns and equipment ready to go.
Hence the question about the 500-gr. projectile, etc., etc., etc.
So, there ya are, then.

MacD37, I can always count on you to spank me on the internet...
YOU - DUGABOY
ME -- WHIPING BOY

"misssspelinngs"

Good one.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
... In my case I suffer from severe Dyslexia, causeing me to transpose letters, and numbers, and makes it almost imposible for me to spell correctly, because my mind travels three or four letters ahead of my fingers. ....

I just blaim the keyboard. Works for me.


But everyone knows Americans can't spell for nuyts.

Gezzz ! can't ya just feel the love here

I think we all need a few days off and some Valium. This internecine warfare saddens me. Maybe we should consider what we have in common instead of what divides us, e.g., a fondness for large-bore firearms that binds us together in a world that seems more and more to be opposed to hunting and firearms.
Can't wait till all this recent flatulence subsides among the AR brother/sisterhood.

quote:

Originally posted by 300 H-H:
Vinny I would think that comparing Ray and carmello--saying they should start there own forum makes you sound kinf of like--AN IDIOT

Don't know about the idiot part, but my post was intended as a bit of humor in a humorless seeming situation. Oh well, humor is not what it used to be.....

Gentlemen, I'd like to apologize to the forum members, and BUSMASTER007, as well, for my outburst! It is simply that everytime this poster posts a derogatory post, my name seems to be mentioned. That post was just got on my last frayed nerve. On reflection I over reacted, and this seems to be happening a lot, to a lot of the folks here, lately. I think I need to go hunting!

I'll take my leave of this string now!

Wow.
I'm in total agreement with, uh, that 'guy', I won't mention his name this time!
It's a GOOD DAY!

If Ray as left for good that is too bad.

I didn't agree with all he said but then I don't agrree with all the time with everybody else.

Several members and I have went at it.

Just because some one goes at you why leave its just a internet forum.

Because PVT's lawyer told him to keep his mouth shut.

His absence was not enough to keep .45-70 stuff to creep back in -- Oh the irony!



Dan

For Ray 45/70 45/70 45/70 45/70 45/70

45/70 45/70 45/70 45/70 45/70 45/70

45/70 45/70 45/70 O Ya and lever action DG rifle BLR 50-110 45/70 45/70 45/70 45/70 45/70 45/70 .

quote:

Originally posted by MartinPotts:
For Ray 45/70 45/70 45/70 45/70 45/70

45/70 45/70 45/70 45/70 45/70 45/70

45/70 45/70 45/70 O Ya and lever action DG rifle BLR 50-110 45/70 45/70 45/70 45/70 45/70 45/70 .

Hey Martin, where is your bullet web-site?

Thats, ok, there are enough of us around with a modicum of common sense to "bitch-slap" any re-emergence of that absurd (and plebean) notion of using a 45/70 lever in Africa let alone on DGR. Yeah I know it's been done, but so what, it's been done with spears to but it doesn't make it optimum. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by MartinPotts:
For Ray 45/70 45/70 45/70 45/70 45/70

45/70 45/70 45/70 45/70 45/70 45/70

45/70 45/70 45/70 O Ya and lever action DG rifle BLR 50-110 45/70 45/70 45/70 45/70 45/70 45/70 .

Hey Martin, where is your bullet web-site?

Below is the link to the bullet making web site ..
Bulletsmiths.Info Forums Promoting the Art of Bullet Making


Below is the link to the page that sell's PA Bullet's

PA Bullet's

Martin

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Thats, ok, there are enough of us around with a modicum of common sense to "bitch-slap" any re-emergence of that absurd (and plebean) notion of using a 45/70 lever in Africa let alone on DGR. Yeah I know it's been done, but so what, it's been done with spears to but it doesn't make it optimum. jorge

And here all this time i thought you flew 14's and hung out on the edge .. ..

Martin

Well-I personally think Ray's opinions and experience will be missed.Wait till you fella's get old. A man that has seen most all of it and an opinion to go with it,right or wrong,is good in my opinion.

Jayco

Unfortunately, due to recent events, it will be impossible to determine if all those stories were based on years of experience, or rather the product of a fertile imagination.

Ray,
If you're reading this I now apologize for ever starting this thread...it wasn't ever meant to be a slam or negative...
Vapo

What about the Judge?

Martin: I do have few hours in a "14" {sic} but most of my operational flying was in the Viking. Sorry to disappoint you jorge