I already have a .404 and the first .450 Rigby on the Pacific Coast. My need for something bigger is non-existant. However, even though it would be cheaper, more practical, etc., etc. to wait for CZ to bring out the .505 Gibbs in factory chambering, what I want is a double rifle. I'm just not interested in laying out $9K+ to do it. So, to those who have already had McKool make them one, what has been your experience with the rechambered Kodiak? It seems just so . . . so . . . Spirit of Khaki, don'tcherknow.

Oldsarge

I had my Kodiak re-chambered to 458 rcbs last year and I am very happy with it. Mine was done here in New York. The only thing I had to do to it was change the front site. I hunted with it the May in Zim and shot a nice kudu with it at about 90 yds. If you want any other info let me know

Cheers

Oldsarge,

Could one not just hand ream the chanmbers to 45-110 or 45-120? Done carefully (read slowly with many cleanings and using lots of vegetable oil) hand reaming the 45-70 to 45-110 would be a relatively easy (also save you several hundred dollars). With those cartridges there is NO need to modify the extractor, which some may consider a benefit/

ASS_CLOWN

I know MacD37 rechambered one to I think 458 RCBS and a couple of fellas on AR hare rechambered to 450 No2 including PWN375. If I remember correctly they had no problems and the rifles shot very well. The 450 No2 is a great ctg. and has less pressure than any other Nitro Express. My brother had a very early Kodiak in 45/70 for a while. Pedersoli told him it was save with Cor-Bon and Buffalo Bore Ammo.

Thanx, guys. I don't have any data on the 45 RCBS. Can anyone tell me the specs on it? I'd still rather go with the .450 NE because:
1. It's a proper NE cartridge, don'tcherknow.
2. Brass availability is a whole bunch greater than with the #2
3. Though if I were going to rechamber a Pedersoli rolling block the 110/120 chamberings would be right up there at the head of the list, those are North American cartridges and this is to be a(nother) safari rifle.

None of the above is to be taken as the only position I'll accept. Other suggestions will certainly be given due consideration in the event that my first preference is shown to be ill-advised.

Again, thanx,

Old Sarge,
J.J. Perodeau at Champlin Arms (www.champlinarms.com) will do it for about a quarter of what McKool's will. I'm sure either one will do a decent job although you might have to bend J.J.'s arm to do it.
Jason

Are the barrels on these Italian doubles regulated to the same point of impact?

Yes, they seem to be, and pretty well. How this can be when rechambered I'm not 'smith enough to know, but all those who have had the job done seem to be very satisfied with accuracy (at least the ones who have contacted me or discussed the issue here). Several of us have even tried to get the Pedersoli company to factory chamber the Kodiak in .450 NE or #2 but they refuse, possibly on the advice of their attorneys or insurance agents, whichever is more chickensh**. Obviously, this is no Searcy, Krieghoff, Merkel, etc., let alone a H&H Royal grade. However, with carefully worked up loads and a bit of stock fiddling to give the all important shotgun-style handling, they make a suitable DG double-onna-budget for those OH SH*T moments we all dread but which, inevitably, happen. And, they have hammers!

Sarge, if you've not already seen it, there's a good thread on this conversion on Nitox's web site - www.nitroexpress.com

Look at "double rifles" subject and check back in the pages. Titled "how to build a double rifle", or something like that. The Pedersoli is the subject gun. It's a good read on what you are considering. I think the bias was toward doing a 450 NE #2 (I think).

Dungbeetle

Thanx for the link, DB, that's exactly the kind of discussion I was looking for. How does the financially challenged (or, at least, distracted) bwana acquire the requisite double rifle for less than the price of a small car? Or in the case of the big London houses, a small house! A 2nd hand Pedersoli rechambered to .450 NE and then trotted up to Tate for stock bending and exact fitting should run under three grand ( plus reloading equipment, of course) and while that may a fair chunk for a rifle, it is very decent for a double.

Bwana Sarge
.450 NE 3 1/4": The bigger they are, the harder they fall!

Two threads I have found in my search

Making your own double rifle

Double rifle on shotgun frame question

I hope these two threads provide some help.


***


OldSarge

Welcome to the dark side.

All of us "Double Rifle jock sniffers and wannabes" know what you mean ! Keep us posted on what you do with this if you go the Pedersoli route so we can follow along.

Jeffeoso is considering an aquisition and conversion of one of the Russian doubles. Hopefully it will come to fruition for him and we can watch that one take life.

I've been ratholing $ for a Searcy double. Maybe my Grandsons will talk good about me when I'm gone. Better than my wife will, anyhow.

Dungbeetle

Well I have a 450 Nitro No 2 reamer ordered from PTG so we will see how it works... I will either have a nicely converted Pedersoli or if it doesn't regulate I will have a $2000 Howdah pistol!
Jason

I have a Pedersoli in 45/70 it shoots great with govt loads recoils like my 38sp cowboy action rifle.
I picked up a jeffery 12 gauge double shotgun that I hope to turn into a 303british double this winter. If that works Ill punch the Pedersoli out to 450ne#2
Sharps54 let me know if you want to sell that reamer after yours is done.
Dean

Dean,
Sorry, the reamer is spoken for but I will post pics and results once we get it done.
Jason

450#2,
Can you tell me the pressure and rim dia of the #2? I thought they are were basically 18 long tons.
jeffe

QUESTION:

If a suitable and durable double rifle in 450 NE can be made by simply rechambering a Kodiak, they wouldn't it make sense for Kodiak to just offer them from the factory in the very popular 470 Nitro Express? Such an offering might turn the double market upside down. But Kodiak does not do it. Do the engineers at Kodiak know something that we do not?

Dan,

Excellent question! The truth is the 450 NE #2 exerts much more force on the action than the 45-70. To me anyway this is not a good idea. If Oldsarge would rechamber to 45-120 he would be able to propell 515 grain bullets at ~ 1900 fps and stay within the design pressure envelope of the original rifle (as chambered in 45-70) and therefore the thrust envelope. It is this so-called thrust envelope that is of UTMOST importance in a double rifle!!

In my experience, the Pedersoli rifles are springy and should not be loaded to HIGH pressure (read > 37000 psi MAX). The other issue is brass, YOU NEED THICK CASES with this springy action, otherwise the action deflection will allow the case to "split" (shear is more accurate) at the extractor split line in the chamber.

IF I were going to do a 450 NE #2 on a Pedersoli I would most definitely want a Greener Cross Bolt!

By the way, Champlins told me on multiple occasions to take a leap when I asked them to rechamber a Pedersoli. These are shoe lumped rifles which are silver soldered the length of the barrels. NOT easily re-regulated!!!

But then again what do I know, I am an ASS_CLOWN afterall.

ASS_CLOWN

Yeah, I know about the Class III requirement for the sawed off rifle but I know my boss will sign off on it (an advantage of working for the Sheriff's Office) so that is the last resort plan. I don't think 470 nitro and 450 No. 2 are the same as far as pressures go, 450 No. 2 seems to be the lowest pressure off all the big rounds, and I don't plan on anything over "factory". I have also talked to "real" double rifle smiths about re-regulating and that is why the Howdah is plan B if it won't regulate.
Jason

I have a couple of questions for the think tank:
1) Rim thickness - The source I have (Howells "Blue" book) says that the rim on a 450 NE is .0421 while the Rim on a 45-70 is .070, doesn't this affect headspace as you can't "clean up" the rim as the rim is the same dia.? Also, it lists the rim thickness on the 450 NE "basic" brass as .054. What gives?
2) Why has nobody mentioned 500/450 NE? if there's enough metal to ream, while it won't clean up the rim completely, it does get most of it.
3)how about a .470/450 NE? brass is commonly available and your going to have to spring for pricey dies anyway. The only down side is no factory ammo.
4)What about a real nostalgic cartidge say .577/450 MH? Commercial loads are available as well as the reamer cleaning up the original chamber, rim included. Load data that is on the soft side is common and one could always juice it up a bit. plus case capacity is larger but not so excessive as to make one get over enthusiastic. The one thing that I see as a problem is case head thrust with that huge rim..
5) While the 45-110 is practical for a rechamber, it just doesn't have the nostalgic feel that one all but demands in a hammer double. What about using the .45 basic brass (not .450 basic!) and shorten it to a non standard length, say 3.125 and calling it .45 NE?

I'd like to hear what others are thinking about this as I would seriously like to do one of these rifles in a rechamber.

Toolmaker

The 450 Nitro Express and the 450 Nitro Express No. 2 are the commonly looked at options as I beleive both have been done. A few members here have had Pedersoli's converted to No.2 successfully and have been happy with them (other then prehaps heavy felt recoil). I don't know if there is enough metal to safely do some of the conversions you mention but I am no expert in this matter.
Jason

Scott,
you know that bolt thrust, at the same PSI, goes down with increased case head diameter... which stands to reason that IF a ped was safe for the 38k buffalo arms loads, then the BOLT thrust of a 38l 450 NE 2 would be less.


Now, this aint baiting, but PLEASE explain to me how you would add a greener to a ped without compromising action integrity?

jeffe

Jeffe are you sure? I always thought that if pressure remained a constant and you increased case rim size, thrust would go up. That's what I heard on why you can put a .223 barrel on an encore but not a .458winmag...

Toolmaker

jeffeosso,

Quote:

---

you know that bolt thrust, at the same PSI, goes down with increased case head diameter... which stands to reason that IF a ped was safe for the 38k buffalo arms loads, then the BOLT thrust of a 38l 450 NE 2 would be less.

---

Sorry but you have it backward!

Thrust force = pressure * internal cross sectional area of case

So if pressure is held constant and the case head is increased the thrust force increases right along with the case head diameter (actually it increases with the square of the case head diameter!! )

So in the example of the 45-120 versus the 450 NE #2

The 45-120 has a base diameter of 0.506" and an ID of ~ 0.45".

45-120 ID cross-sectional area = 0.159 in^2
Pressure = 37,600 psi
Maximum achievable thrust force = 5980 pounds
This load limitation will allow for a 515gr bullet to be driven at ~ 1900 fps.

The 450 NE #2 has a base diameter of 0.565" with an ID of ~ 0.5".

450 NE #2 ID cross-sectional area = 0.1963 in^2
Pressure = 37,600 psi
Maximum achievable thrust force = 7383 lbs.

The 450 NE #2 is CIP limited to a maximum average pressure of 39,900 psi so factory loaded ammunition coul have a
Maximyum achievable thrust force of :
0.1963 * 39900 = 7832 lbs!

That is 31% greater than the 45-120!! < !--color-->

The 450 NE #2 will not achieve much better ballistics than the 45-120 will either for any given pressure. Unless very slow powders are used, which will almost certainly play havoc with regulation. The 45-120 is a FAR more efficient case than the 450 NE #2!

The thrust force equations above are grotesquely simplistic, and therefore highly unrealistic. The fact is the 450 NE #2 will have far more than 31% greater thrust than the 45-120, although the numbers would be less than those calculated above. Theis is due to the broader span of the case head, which is unsupported by the case walls, of the 450 NE #2 means it will deflect into the standing breech than a smaller diameter case head will.

I believe you have the far wiser idea in using the Russian double with it's adjustable regulation. The fact that it is far cheaper makes it far wiser as well.

Again, I know nothing as I am a mere ASS_CLOWN. So all of you please feel free to tell me just how igorant and incorrect I am. I promise you I will enjoy your comment immensely.

ASS_CLOWN

Certainly back pressure might be a matter of concern if this was to be a PH's backup rifle and could be expected to be fired a hundred rounds a year, or so. And, as PWN375 has related, a converted Pedersoli is serving in such a capacity in Africa today. Of course a working PH cannot be expected to be up on engineering theory, so perhaps he simply doesn't know any better. In the case of we who belong to the 'budget-bwana' category, on the other hand, a couple of hundred rounds in our remaing lifetimes are more likely. Hence, while AC's point is not to be ignored or brushed off, I think that it is something that will make me want to watch the results carefully rather than avoid making the attempt in the first place. Again, if this were to be a North American rifle, a 45-110 would be grand. However, 510 grains at under 2100 fps won't give me the kind of confidence in a clutch that I want from a .450 NE or a .450 #2.

From ellis brown's book on converting double rifles..
thrust is
PI*(r*r)*pressure...

(pi *radius squared * pressure)

A 12 ga, at 12500psi, with a RADIUS of 0.43675, has a bolt thrust of 7486.96 (round to .96)

a 470, AT THE SAME PRESSURE
radius of 0.3275 bolt thrust of 4209.80

This is why you could run a contender in 223 at 55k but NOT a 308 at the same pressure... but, funny enough, you COULD use a 307...

So, Scott, I'll take the word of a fella that's done it

Sarge
if what AC said is true, a 223 at 55k would LAZE through any metal known to man

jeffeosso,



Your ignorance knows NO bounds. Your sited reference says PRECISELY what I said. You have misunderstood both myself and your sited reference, as it is INTERNAL DIAMETER NOT OUTSIDE DIAMETER, OR RADIUS IF YOU PREFER, THAT MATTERS!



For you information a 223 at 60,000 (just to best your comments) produces a MAXIMUM achievable thrust force of = 4412 lbs (OH BOY that is a BIG one )



A 12 gauge at 11,600 psi (typical maximum load) is = 4658 lb as a maximum achievable thrust force.



30-06 at 60,000 psi (SAAMI max) = 8512 lbs maximum achievable thrust force.



375 H&H case head @ 62000 psi (SAAMI max for the vast majority of them) = 10,214 lbs of maximum achievable thrust force



416 Rigby @ 49,500 psi (typical max load for this case head) = 10,879 lbs of maximum achievable thrust force.



500 Jeffery @ 47,000 psi (typical max load for this case head) = 10,944 lbs of maximum achievable thrust force.



505 Gibbs @ 43,700 psi (typical maximum load for this case head) = 10,956 lbs of maximum achievable thrust force.



500 NE case head (this would essentially include the 470 NE, 450 NE #2, 475 NE #2, 500 NE, and a score of others) loaded to the typical 39,900 psi = 7834 lbs of maximum achievable thrust

Loaded to 42,500 psi = 8345 lbs of maximum achievable thrust.



I hope I have helped you out enough here jeffeosso by performing this simple math with this simplistic mathematical model for bolt thrust.



Do you know why I post "maximum achievable thrust" after every number. Because that is EXACTLY what it is! The real thrust force will, almost certainly be lower, and it will increase at a rate greater than the square of the increase in the diameter as the case head increases in size!



The aforementioned values should CLEARLY illustrate why SO MANY have stated, correctly I might add, that the high pressure belted magnums and larger cases SHOULD NOT be loaded into double rifles!!!



Oldsarge, it is your money, but I have some small experience playing with the Pedersoli Kodiak Mk IV rifle. It is springy, and does not like thrust forces that are higher than ~ 5950 lbs < !--color--> when calculated using the simplistic thrust force model defined by:

Thrust force = pressure * cross-sectional area of ID of case head.



It is your money do with as you wish. I think a wiser approach would be to use one of these Baikal SXS 45-70 though. It would most definitely be cheaper. By the way, I don't think you will find anyone that will re-regulate a Pedersoli double, period. If you know how a shoe lump set of barrels is put together, particularly with a full length rib which is silver soldered in place, you will understand why no one will want to re-regulate it.



Typo corrected, correction is in "red" type.

ASS_CLOWN

Morning Scott,
hmm, i'll take your model.. and compare it to the guy that MAKES doubles from shotguns.. and, well, you come out under on this one.

gee, though, thanks for the "understanding"...


Or, again, you are telling me a 223 will just jet clean through ANY action?


high pressure rounds in doubles? you are MIXING things again, sir, as you tend to do when cornered. In fact, under one of your other handles, you flatly stated the double is the strongest of actions and shuold be used for everything...


Now, scott, do the SAME cartridges I compared, and USE THE SAME PRESSURE ON EACH...

With as profound a knowledge of mathmatics as yourself, you should readily realize that creating this as a multi-varible equation ends with UNCOMPARABLE results of interaction.

Do this, please...
223 12,500psi
30-06 12,500 psi
45/70 12,50 psi
470ne, 12,500 psi
12 ga, 12,500 psi...

yes, scott, please post your exact results, at teh same pressure.

On another thread, it was asked "why can we have loaded 223 in a contender at X pressure, but had to load the 45/70 way down? "

My reply, as shuold have been yours, is that the 45/70, FOR THAT ROUND is loaded fantasticlly high.. you know, how the reloading boths say "for mauser bolt actions of Thompson Center Contender ONLY"

FACTS, not name calling, sir... Name calling (resorting to attacking a person rather than the arguement) are a definitive mark of either being outside one's reasons or outside one's depth.


Simple math...

then again, Scott, I am referring to PROVEN use of a man who's built em... You are telling me a NE is ~175% FAR OVERthrust than 12ga... well, buddy, you might tell the double MADE from shotguns that they should just crumple in like a 73' pinto...

As the baikal's are NOT available, the remainder of your statement is moot... Yet, there's always a glimmer of fact... the EXACT same actions for the mp221 are sold today as IZH43 ... a shotgun


jeffe

Where one gets into trouble is, when the cartridge one re-chambers to,even with less chamber pressure, leaves too little wall thickness. This, however, is remedied by the very heavy wall thickness of the brass of the 450#2, and the 475 #2 which are both made on the .500 basic brass, and both are the lowest pressure NE rounds ever chambered in a double rifle.The Pedersolis have very thick chamber areas, and the shoe lump is not as much drawback as one would think. There are any number of 100 yr old large bore NE double rifles still in service that have shoelump barrels. I use 475 #2 brass to make 500/450#1 BPE cases, and the brass is so strong, it takes a lot of pressure on the handle of a RCBS BIG MAX press to size the brass the first time but even smokeless loads do not expand the brass enough that it needs more that neck sizeing to re-load. Your system doesn't take into consideration the shape, and size of the case,and how it grips the walls of the chamber, which in many cases retards the reverce thrust just long enough to negate it, alltogether. Different shapes grip differently. The simple area of the rim of the case is not all that is involved in how a chamber, and action type tollerate pressure!



The Pedersolis have been re-chambered to 450#2, and 450 NE 3 1/4" without problem on many occasions. I have one that was re-chambered to 458 RCBS, which is basiclly a 45-110, with a case length of 2.75",all other measurements are the same as the 45-70, and will push a 500 gr bullet to only 1775 fps even in a Ruger No1 before pressure sign rears it's ugly head. It will get 2100 fps with the powder load for the 500 gr bullet, but substituting a 400 gr bullet, useing 65.0 grs IMR4064. Anything above that, and it getts sticky. The 450#2, however, shows no sign of pressure either on the brass, or on extraction in the Pedersoli, with full loads. You push the 458 RCBS 500 gr over 1775 fps, and the opening of the action becomes sticky. Both cartridges in the same rifle, the 450#2 will push a 500 gr bullet to 2150 fps, and the cases fall out of the chamber, while the the 458RCBS, (read 45-110) will bind the action at 1800 fps with a 500 gr bullet. All this flys in the face of your calculations on so-called thrust, with both these cartridges pumping out around 35,000 PSI chamber pressure. This is not from some balistic disk in a computer, but from the fireing range with REAL loads! You need to throw that software away, and get out of the house, and on the range, with something that burns real powder, and shoots real bullets!



It will do you no good to start cussing me, because I have said my piece, and will not respond further! BYE!!!

Just kinda kicking some numbers around, by no means do I know anything about doubles other than I want one.

2150 Pedersoli (best price I've seen so far)
150 reamer
250 Dies (best guess)
100 go/nogo (guess you's use head space gauges)
500 machine work (proabably on the hi side)
1000 regulation (includes ammo)

$4050 if I did the math right, which might turn me to do something else.

Your cost structure would be correct if you were either doing the work yourself or having it done by someone who wasn't set up already. With McKool already having the reamer we can drop $250 off if we go to him. If the beast shoots on target with nothing more serious than a change of front sight, as both Mac and Perry report, we can drop off the $1000. Therefore $4050 less $1250 comes to $2800. If one can obtain a good used Kodiak for around $1600 as has been reported in another thread (or was it earlier on this one?) we're down another $500 dropping our cost to $2300. Now that's one cheap double rifle! Mind you, I have yet to talk to McKool about the details but I still believe that my guess of under $3K is good. Somehow, this seems to me to be a comparitive cost to what a young subaltran would have paid to Army & Navy back when the Poms ruled the world. I have been wrong before, perhaps ALF has a better handle on costs then vs. costs now. Still, a stimulating discussion and I thank everyone for their contribution, no matter how controversial. Let's keep it going. BTW, I'll be out of the loop from the 29th to the 18th . . . in Africa with pith helmet, .404, .318 and mustache!

They make the pedersoli in 9.3x74 dont they? Would work for most stuff short of elephant wouldnt it? Is it an African round? I wish thats what mine was.

Dean

kodiak 9.3x74r also 8x57??

Mac,
he said greener, which is a PROBLEM to put in.. moving parts and all.. a doll's head is a fairly simple one...

i agree it's desirable.

jeffe

Billy,
or

300$ stoeger
100 for untapered barrels
0 or 1000 ,,, no, wait.. I don't PAY for my own machine work
100$reamer/gages--
45/70....

jeffe

jeffeosso,



I will perform this math once more for your benefit, realizing full well you know you are WRONG and simply cannot admit it! So very much like a woman, I might add.

Quote:

---

Do this, please...

223 12,500psi

30-06 12,500 psi

45/70 12,50 psi

470ne, 12,500 psi

12 ga, 12,500 psi...

---

223 @ 12,500 psi = 919 lbs of maximum achievable thrust.

30-06 @ 12,500 psi = 1691 lbs of maximum achievable thrust.

45/70 @ 12,500 psi = 1953 lbs of maximum achievable thrust.

470 NE @ 12,500 psi = 2504 lbs of maximum achievable thrust.

12 Ga @ 12,500 psi = 5019 lbs of maximum achievable thrust.



So in a UNREALISTIC , and therefore to my way of thinking idiotic manner , you are correct. PLEASE DIRECT ME TO A LOAD FOR ANY NITRO EXPRESS CARTRIDGE THAT OPERATES ANYWHERE NEAR SHOTGUN PRESSURES i.e. 12,500 psi!



The maximum achievable muzzle velocity for a 470 NE, shooting a 500 grain bullet, at 12,500 psi is ~ 1200 fps!!!! Oh boy Jeffe, that is a hell of a Dangerous Game rifle you got yourself there!! < !--color-->



You are, and you remain a pathetic excuse. Now leave me alone as I tire easily of children's whining!



Now ask yourself why those that use shotgun actions add on third fasteners when they go to rifle cartridges on these shotgun actions. I have previously posted the REASON why. It is too darned bad that you are such an imbecile as to not understand why (I chose imbecile over ignorant, because I have provided the proof, so you are therefore no longer ignorant) The rifle will out thrust the shotgun, it is really that simple.



I say again, the Pedersoli Kodiak MkIV DOES NOT like to be loaded to thrust forces in excess of 5950 lbs when said thrust force is calculated using:

pressure * cross-sectional area of case ID.



I cannot speak for your author Jeffe, but I HAVE worked with Pedersoli Kodiak MkIV rifles and I KNOW what they do and don't like. If you exceed the "thrust force of 5950 lbs" you will have fun openning the action after firing the rifle. I gets kinda sticky. Do you know what that means, smarty pants? Come on tell us what does your BOOK tell you 'bout that?



Like MacD, I am done with this thread.



Carry-on.



ASS_CLOWN