If the 300 grain Barnes in 375 H&H has been such an effective all around load, would a 300 grain Barnes in 416 Rem Mag be equally so?

The standard 416 load at 400 gr doesn't give up much to the 375 as far as trajectory, but it does cost you a bit in recoil. Killing power on larger game favors the 416 though.

John

Just one guys opinion here.....when you reach this much power....it's not too much about what you're shooting as how you shoot it.....

I truly struggle with having a .416 and not shooting the 400 grainers however as that's what it was designed for.

I'd far prefer to take my chances of good placement from a .375 any day as I really don't shoot the 416 well.....it's beyond my limit of comfort. Everyone has to know his limits....

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

I'd far prefer to take my chances of good placement from a .375 any day as I really don't shoot the 416 well.....it's beyond my limit of comfort. Everyone has to know his limits....

I sure have to agree with this one.
Though I'm not very recoil sensitive for the most part, and everyone has a different feel for the larger calibers; I do see a significant difference between these two for myself.
With .375 H&H or Ruger, I find that I give them no more thought when pulling the trigger then I do a typical .243; and that shooting them well is simple.
The .416s seem to be that fine line where I find myself giving it that little added mental effort with each trigger pull for best results.
I think that's the main reason I like the .375s so well. For me, it's the caliber I would pick if I ever found myself facing a charge from say a Bear or lion, where speed and accuracy, combined with enough power was needed. . . .

Your mileage my vary.

Sorry guys, of the two choices make mine a 416!

Gary, of your question it all depends on what you are doing with that 300 gr pill? Basically in my opinion the answer to your question is NO. A 300 416 caliber bullet is a little light for caliber, where 300 in 375 caliber is standard. Yes, 400 may have been standard for 416 caliber, but 350s are truly fantastic in all the 416s I shoot, and think they are about the best all around for 416 caliber. Reserve the bigger 400s for the biggest of jobs. Effective? I go with 416 again.

Leave the 375s for the kids and old ladies!

OK 375 guys, including my old buddy Dwright, I had to throw that last one in, my apology before you start throwing things at me!

LOL

Michael

I have to agree with Micheal458, a 350 grain TSX will out penetrate a lead core 400 grainer. The 416 is an absolute hammer when compaired to a 375 which is a medium bore.

Ignore Michael's comments, he shoots big 50's like they were 22's LOL jk

The 416 will do everything the 375 will do, plus a lot more. If you can shoot a 375 you can shoot a 416......my wife shoots a 416 Rigby and she is a girl (pun intended).

The 416 can reach out like a 375 if you need it and it puts a bigger thump on the target.

quote:

my wife shoots a 416 Rigby and she is a girl (pun intended).

I surely hope so!!!!

In my opinion the 416s are neither fish nor fowl. They make poor mediums and even poorer stoppers. I rather have a 375 H&H and a 458 or larger any day.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
In my opinion the 416s are neither fish nor fowl. They make poor mediums and even poorer stoppers. I rather have a 375 H&H and a 458 or larger any day.

465H&H

After useing his 416 Rigby Harry Shelby wrote " I never felt the need to go back to the 470"

the 416 rem with lighter bullets really seems to cut the recoil, and you can crank up the vel to 2800 w 300 gr, so if you handload no reason not to get a 416, plus a 416 can get full vel with real short bbls, ive cronyd 400 gr at 2350+ w 18in tubes,
i get 2450 w factery rem 400 w 22in bbl

i forgot to mention last time i priced 416 rem at tongass dock store 20 box/ $180 plus tax. when i bought this thing it was 55 a box

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Sorry guys, of the two choices make mine a 416!

Gary, of your question it all depends on what you are doing with that 300 gr pill? Basically in my opinion the answer to your question is NO. A 300 416 caliber bullet is a little light for caliber, where 300 in 375 caliber is standard. Yes, 400 may have been standard for 416 caliber, but 350s are truly fantastic in all the 416s I shoot, and think they are about the best all around for 416 caliber. Reserve the bigger 400s for the biggest of jobs. Effective? I go with 416 again.

Leave the 375s for the kids and old ladies!

OK 375 guys, including my old buddy Dwright, I had to throw that last one in, my apology before you start throwing things at me!

LOL

Michael

Once again, Michael is right. The .416 with 400 grain bullets will stomp the .375 for a stopper. And 300s in a .416 is kinda useless; but I can hammer out a full magazine of .375s as fast as I can cycle the bolt, with precise accuracy. Just can't like it with a .416.
I took out a .404 Jeffrey and sighted it in last week in the hills. After about the 20th round, it lost it's fun factor. Grabbed the .375, and started grinning once again.
My .375 weighs only about 8 pounds to, so handles pretty fast for me, where that .404 felt like a frickin harpon that needed a mount!

Now, if I can just find something to throw at Michael. . . . . . . . .

quote:

Originally posted by anukpuk:
i forgot to mention last time i priced 416 rem at tongass dock store 20 box/ $180 plus tax. when i bought this thing it was 55 a box

Why is .416 Rem Mag ammo so expensive? If Hornady can make .404 Jeff and .416 Rigby for less than $100/20 surely someone can make the Rem Mag for about the same

Pondo taylor was very happy with either caliber.
I remember reading his discription of shooting a charging cape buffalo in the nose with a 300 grain .375 and having the bullet come out the other end. The buff dropped.
And also reading where he said the 416 rigby is all the power anyone will ever need for any animal on earth.
...tj3006

Gary,

Here are sectional density bullet weight equivalents:
.375 Standard Bullet Weights
232gr .375 @ 0.236 SD = 286gr .416
250gr .375 @ 0.254 SD = 308gr .416
270gr .375 @ 0.274 SD = 332gr .416
300gr .375 @ 0.305 SD = 370gr .416
350gr .375 @ 0.356 SD = 431gr. 416
.416 Standard Bullet Weights
300gr .416 @ 0.248 SD = 244gr .375
330gr .416 @ 0.272 SD = 268gr .375
350gr .416 @ 0.289 SD = 284gr .375
370gr .416 @ 0.305 SD = 300gr .375
400gr .416 @ 0.330 SD = 325gr .375
450gr. 416 @ 0.371 SD = 365gr .375

Hope it’s of some use.

Dennis,

Man up and throw some long green at Michael for one of his light weight short barreled 416 B&Ms and enjoy the best of both worlds.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
In my opinion the 416s are neither fish nor fowl. They make poor mediums and even poorer stoppers. I rather have a 375 H&H and a 458 or larger any day.

465H&H

Me, too. I do.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick R:

quote:

Originally posted by anukpuk:
i forgot to mention last time i priced 416 rem at tongass dock store 20 box/ $180 plus tax. when i bought this thing it was 55 a box

Why is .416 Rem Mag ammo so expensive? If Hornady can make .404 Jeff and .416 Rigby for less than $100/20 surely someone can make the Rem Mag for about the same

Can you spell G-R-E-E-D?

quote:

Originally posted by GaryG:
If the 300 grain Barnes in 375 H&H has been such an effective all around load, would a 300 grain Barnes in 416 Rem Mag be equally so?

GaryG
what is it exactly that you are wanting to do with it?

For killing things well all logic (and the scribes worth reading) will say UP the weight of the projectile, don't lower it.

If you are wanting to shoot something way off yonder in another time zone, then you are chasing velocity. There'll be little benefit in terms of reduced recoil really. And momentum will suffer from the lower weight.

If you are looking for accuracy, then I doubt the 300gr bullet will out perform the more standard choices.

Perhaps you can make something of an allrounder for plainsgame if you hit the sweet spot in the load?

If you're just looking to have fun trying something then

Do they make a 300gr bullet for the 416 Rem. I always shoot 400gr bullets out of My Rem 416.
Standing up it doesn't hurt Me. Now my 458 Lott
has a lot more recoil, but it doesn't hurt me either Standing.

Gary had a good question for sure. But honestly for the life of my I can't see why this is even a discussion? What is 375 caliber doing on a big bore forum to begin with? At best it should be down in Mediums! Now that we have the bullet question knocked out, can someone tell me what a rat shooting caliber has to do with big bores?

Now I am not so convinced that 416 belongs either? But I suppose one has to start somewhere, so .400 caliber up seems like a good place to begin. Should I have arranged such a forum, nothing under .400 would belong here with the big dogs! 375 starts with a "THREE"? How can it belong here? I suppose it's because it's the smallest bore size one can use on dangerous game in africa, someone decided a long time ago, I can only reason that's why it would be placed here with our big bores! Well, guess that's ok too, after all the "old Ladies" out there need something to shoot big game with too, so chose a nice little cartridge that is rather mild for them to use is a good thing and let's the little old ladies get in on the fun. But for heavens sakes, because of that don't start believing that a 375 is something more than it is? I suppose a pretty good impala and deer cartridge, caliber? I wouldn't have a clue however as I will not allow one on the compound here! I think if one was going to shoot some impala and deer with 375 do pick a proper constructed bullet.

Milehigh


MHCTX

I hope your wife is a girl? With the internet thing, one never knows for sure?


465HH

WHAT? WHAT? WHAT? Well, some of what you say makes a little sense, as I am still not convinced exactly what 416 is good for either! But I don't give a damn what a 416 is, it's got to be way ahead of anything that starts with a "THREE"? Certainly there are plenty of good 416 caliber bullets out there that would far surpass anything starting with a "3". Anything a "3" can do I am very convinced a "4" can do better! Now being a small "4" is another story, I too much much prefer a MID "4" over a SMALL "4" any day of the week. But like I said above, one has to start somewhere, so I figure a SMALL "4" can also be tailored to fit "Old Ladies" too, and really get big bores started off right! Or at least in the right direction, going to the RIGHT or at least up in caliber, and not ASS BACKWARDS into the "3"s!

JWP

I think Harry might have been using some of those horrible pointy RN FMJs in his 470 and caused him to think the 416 was so much better? Don't know that, but sounds reasonable to me!

DWright

Buddy, I understand completely! I suppose if one shoots something with that small caliber bullet, (375) then you might indeed need a full magazine to get the job done!

Just don't throw anything above .400 at me! Might hurt!

Got a good one for you, about a year ago had a kidney stone get stuck in a very very very bad place, not quite all the way out! This crap went on for 2 weeks! Having to sit down to Pee like an "old lady", it was an awful sight to behold, very degrading to say the least, painful to say the most! Doctor, emergency room, drugs, nothing helped. One morning sitting on the pot for my pee, this huge rock jumped out, obviously I felt that. When I looked, I could not believe my eyes! Nothing would do but to grab this thing up and run to measure it in the gun room! Well, this thing measured a full .400 caliber at the widest point! To say the least I was rather impressed with that! So maybe that was some sort of "omen", so I am sticking to my story, .400 caliber starts big bore for me! I would not have been impressed at all if that "Boulder" had been under .400! Who da Man now? LOL--That by the way is true! For a long time I keep the rock, had to show everyone my rock you know! Doc wanted to have it analyzed so I gave it up to him and the lab! Damn, if I still had it I could post a pic of this big bore boulder right next to a rat bullet in .375 caliber?


In 2005 I took a 416 as my light rifle to shoot impala and such in Tanzania. It did ok I suppose, I left the heavy work for one of my 458 Lotts. But I must say I had some fun with the 416 and it does rather well on hartebeast, roan, and I even shot my one and only ever leopard with it.

But the big question, secondary to Gary's question as primary, 375-416? 416 of course, that's easy. If the question is 416-458, that's easy too--458 of course! I suppose it's different for other folks?


To all those who think "3" belongs in Big Bore---


Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Now that we have the bullet question knocked out, can someone tell me what a rat shooting caliber has to do with big bores?

Because Saeed, who owns this site, uses his 375\404 for all his African hunting. HE put .375's in the big bore category. I suggest you confront him directly.

His mailing address is:

Saeed Al Maktoum
PO Box 671
Dubai - UAE

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
In my opinion the 416s are neither fish nor fowl. They make poor mediums and even poorer stoppers. I rather have a 375 H&H and a 458 or larger any day.

465H&H

Me, too. I do.

X3

quote:

Originally posted by GaryG:
If the 300 grain Barnes in 375 H&H has been such an effective all around load, would a 300 grain Barnes in 416 Rem Mag be equally so?

Yes, however if thick skin game then the better sectional density of the 400 gr .416 aids penetration.

I am one of those guys who thinks that a longer bullet increases penetration (just my opine).
You never hear of a .416 (any caliber) that penetrates poorly.

If there is an "All Around Cartridge" the .375 would fit. Load it up, load it down, it seems to get the job done.

Just to shed a little light on the original question, back in about '90 just after the Rem came out I used the 300x a bit. I now shoot the 350 TSX but the original 300 worked extremely well on the one bull Elk I shot with it. That was back when we loaded the 416s like any other round and used good brass life as the limiting factor. I shot the bullet at 2900 fps. Didn't need a stopper just some reach with good power when it got there.

Heh Michael. . . .

O ya, almost forgot . . .

You crack me over. . . . !

Hey funzer2

Saeed? Who? Oh god give me a break, of course I know that! Confront? Man calm down a bit how about it, smell the roses, have some fun! Have a hot chocolate with some Southern Comfort or something!

Anyway Saeed has increased the "Hitting Power" of his small bore rifles with the addition of NonCon bullets, these things work wonders you know! Can even turn a rat rifle into a better killing machine!

JPK

X3 eh? Suckup!

Rusty

All Around? You mean "Universal"? Fair for a lot of things, really good for nothing!


MTM

In all seriousness on this one, In my little 416 B&M I have several of those little 300 gr Barnes X bullets and I like them pretty good, shoot great, accurate, and I can get them to 2700 fps in that cartridge in 18 inches of barrel. Not to shabby! Although I am still trying to figure out what a 416 is good for, I suppose that would be great for thin skinned critters! Bullet holds together and penetrates well, not quite up to the 350 TSX, but really not all that far behind either! I used mostly in the past the 340 Woodleigh, and at 2400-2500 fps it was a hammer on thin skinned critters! Still for most applications with an expanding bullet I like the 350 TSX and 350 Swift, and in the future I would rather try some 330 NonCons!

Dennis


Now I am going to hide behind the couch just in case you pick up a .400 caliber rock to throw at me!


Michael

Michael,

If agreeing with 465H&H, with his very extensive experience, is sucking up, then I plead guilty.

And I do use a 375H&H and a 458wm on safari.

Happy New Year to you and all.

JPK

I have no issue with those that truly believe in the .375 H&H. Mine makes 2600 fps with a 300 gr TSX and has worked well.

My .416 Rigby pushing a 350 gr Barnes X at 2700 fps is simply a bigger hammer. Terrific penetration and energy transfer.

Pick your poison ... bigger hammer with a bit more definite recoil or a lesser hammer that is perhaps easier to shoot well.

After all, field experience indicates they both work well through Buf so it's YOUR choice. (Mine is to take both or the .416 and a larger rifle )

Heh Michael, thinking about sending you a shiny new Winchester 70 to use for some serious bullet testing. Only thing is. . . . . . it will be in .270! And to torture you even more, you have to promise not to change out the barrel.
Nope, no reboring either!

quote:

Originally posted by mstarling:
I have no issue with those that truly believe in the .375 H&H. Mine makes 2600 fps with a 300 gr TSX and has worked well.

My .416 Rigby pushing a 350 gr Barnes X at 2700 fps is simply a bigger hammer. Terrific penetration and energy transfer.

Pick your poison ... bigger hammer with a bit more definite recoil or a lesser hammer that is perhaps easier to shoot well.

After all, field experience indicates they both work well through Buf so it's YOUR choice. (Mine is to take both or the .416 and a larger rifle )

Michael,

I agree that the bigger hammer is better for big DG, that is why I am a fan of the big bores, in particular the 458wm. Bigger hammer, sufficient velocity, but still tolerable recoil and/or rifle weight.

But for everything else, the 375H&H is the better all rounder, the better medium bore, and sufficient for a back up if the primary big bore large DG rifle goes tits up or in case of ammo issues.

The 416R, Taylor or Rigby, etc, are neither fish nor fowl, as 465H&H writes. They are not big bores and do not share big bore stopping power and they are not as versatile a medium bore as the 375H&H.

Better to have along a stopping rifle and a versatile medium bore. Especially for elephants.

JPK

Hey now michael.....careful about comments like those on the 375.....don't forget your newest B&M development is even smaller!!
Haha! Happy News

For those who can't figure where a 416 comes in, I'm too poor for Africa but in B.C. it makes perfect sence. Don't get me wrong, I've got a 375 and usually have a couple. I do a lot of hunting with my 338 and 250 Noslers as that's how it's throated. When I want to step up in power a 350 TSX at 2650ish is a good jump over the H&H. All the range of the H&H with bigger bullets. Recoil is no problem for me as I shoot relatively big guns all the time.

Is it safe?


JPK

You are still a suckup, is that chocolate on your nose?

You yourself call the 375 a medium in the next post! Regardless of what you think of a 416 anything, even if you consider it a medium, it's still a bigger medium than a 375 anything! It is every bit as versatile as a 375 anything to boot! And believe me pal, if I am playing in the bush whacking impalas I would much rather do that with a 416 anything than a 375 anything! If a 375 is sufficient for back up, then why is a 416 not? Give me a break! I suppose you have a lot of 416 experience? Remember, I load lot's of different things, there are a lot of 416 caliber bullets out there, make it a very fine 300 yard medium rifle! As good, better than 375 in my opinion!

So are you saying 375 is a better stopping rifle than a 416?
LOL! Funny!

Still a suckup!

DWright

Don't even think about it! That's another redneck caliber that are not allowed on the compound, no 270s and no 7mms! We snatch the barrels off them so fast and trash em it would make your head spin! I figure the only good thing about a 7mm or 270 Win M70 is that you can use the action and stock for something!

Just the thought of those two calibers nearly turn my stomach!

Milehigh

Thank you for your very careful observations! YES I built a 9.3 B&M and I love it! I happen to believe that it is going to be a fantastic RAT gun! I think it might even handle those big fat city wharf rats I have heard so much about!

OK OK! I Yield --Just for a minute now! OK most of you know I am just dicking around with you on this subject right? It's funny to me, and please, I do apologize for instigating a "hi Jacking" of the thread! I take the blame, I am the goat on this one.

But I will be honest with you, I do have a dislike for a few calibers, 270 caliber, 7mm caliber, and even 375 caliber. It is phycological, and has nothing to do with performance of any of them. 270 because I am an Elmer Fan, and disliked O'Conner because Elmer didn't like him, he referred to him as "Old 270", so 270 has been on my crap list since I was a small wee child! 7mm because every hillbilly redneck in SC thinks his 7mm is the hammer of Thor! They even think and have referred to their 7 mags as "elephant" guns! Oh my god! I can barely keep it down! So never ever will a 7mm enter the kingdom! 375? Well, it's just common and every dumbass going to Africa on their first trip thinks they must have a 375 because some gunwriter says so! Give me a break! Common, just pure common is all! So no 375s are allowed to enter the kingdom either!

I will go far out of my way to avoid these calibers. That is why I elected to do a 9.3 B&M instead of a 375 B&M! No crap, it's the truth! But I consider 9.3 just a medium, along with 358 and 338 which are small bore mediums. I love 358 and have shot a heap of critters with 358s. Now along comes a B&M fan, JohnOMS, he has a 458 B&M, 416 B&M, 50 B&M Super Short, and guess what, he wants a 375 B&M. I put up some light resistance, tried my best to talk him into a 9.3 B&M, but he was set on a "375" of all things! I relented to the point of telling him that I would design it, have the reamer done, and I would help him work the load data, but it was his, and he would have to do it, not me! So there is a 375 B&M in the works, reamers came in last week and John is sending a rifle next week to get started, so in about 3-4 months, dies and everything, John will be shooting his new and first ever 375 B&M! I am just not sure I can bear the embarrassment of it, a 375 that is connected to my name! Oh the shame!
Maybe I dig a hole to hide in!


MTM

Excellent, could not have said it better


Heh! Lighten up guys, go shoot some rats with your 375s, I suppose they do well for that!

Michael

Michael what's your address? I'm sending you a 270 and 375 matching set.....of REMINGTONS! LOL I guess that would be your equvilant of a lump of coal Christmas morning eh? Haha!

Nothing wrong with a good 9.3 my barrel will be here shortly going on a w70 classic ss.

Now remember Michael; Our good buddie Elmer Keith did once state in one of his books, that he concidered the .375 H&H to be 'a damn fine mule Deer cartridge'.

And, other than the fact that I also hate the 7 mag, I do believe it just may be the ultimate long range coyote rig. But that's about it.