Bear with here -- Pretty much bound up in North America and never hunted an Elephant, or Cape Buffalo.

But as a kid, like 10 yrs old, I'd check out "Shooters Bible" and check out the doubles and drillings, although I only vaguely recognized what I was looking at.

I looked at "elephant gun" on Wikipedia. Mostly they're saying, "big bore" but fast because this is dangerous game. And so, no 50 BMG.

OK, so pretty much up to speed on the ammo. But not on the guns. What's being used? Doubles? Drillings? Some bolt action monster?

H&H -- I got that site bookmarked.

Clue me in here? Please?

Biggest I "need" in No. America is 45/70 Govt. But what's "need" got to do with it?

Most of the DG hunters use bolt action rifles of Mauser/M70 Winchester heritage because double rifles are pretty expensive. The most popular bolt gun cartridges as 9.3x62, 375HH, 416 Remington, 416 Rigby, 404 Jeffrey, 458 Win, and 458 Lott. The next most popular action would be the double rifle, and the most popular calibers based upon what I see guys mention here would be 9.3x74, 375HH (reg and flanged), 400/450, 450/500NE, 458Win, and 470NE.

Single shots don't offer enough rounds fast and drillings are bloody heavy. Kudude

OK, thanks! That provides some search material for Google.

The ideal is a double rifle in 450NE to 500NE. Double rifles and elephants were made for each other.

On calibres, from 450NE up you get room for erroe you don't get with lighter rifles.

On weight, you need enough to mitigate recoil and yet not enough to wear you out carrying it all day.

For me the balance is at 10 1/2lbs and .458". My rifle is a doble in the odd for a double 458wm and it works flawlessly from function and results on elephants perspectives.

If I were to hunt with a bolt rifle it would be a 10lb 458wm. A Lott would be fine too but a 458wm is more than up to the task, especially using flat nosed solids.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
If I were to hunt with a bolt rifle it would be a 10lb 458wm. A Lott would be fine too but a 458wm is more than up to the task, especially using flat nosed solids.

JPK

Say what? I can't wait for that side of the world to wake up this morning and chew that statement over.

And 45/70, just read the stuff on the African Hunting thread, (but don't mention 45/70)

CORRECTION: I misread the quote and thought it was "MORE up to the task" than the Lott.
Still, good for a laugh at ME.

quote:

Originally posted by 45/70 Govt.:
Bear with here -- Pretty much bound up in North America and never hunted an Elephant, or Cape Buffalo.


"elephant gun"
OK, so pretty much up to speed on the ammo. But not on the guns. What's being used? Doubles? Drillings? Some bolt action monster?

H&H -- I got that site bookmarked.

Clue me in here? Please?

Biggest I "need" in No. America is 45/70 Govt. But what's "need" got to do with it?

45/70Govt, The name "ELEPHANT GUN" is a generic term for DGR (Dangerous Game Rifle), but is rarely used to shoot elephant! Most client hunters, hunting dangerous game in Africa, use bolt action rifles, and the most popular chambering is the 375 H&H cartridge, at least for the first Safari. This is not because this is the best cartridge, but simply because it is a good choice for a ONE GUN SAFARI, and is most often reccomended by the PH for a first safari, that may incluse the cats, or Cape buffalo, in Africa. This reccomendation is because the PH figures you will shoot the 375 H&H better than a larger chambering, and he will not have to worry as much about you gut shooting something.

This usually changes for the second safari, because now you know a little more, and the next one my include an Elephant, and/or a couple of Cape Buffalo. Now you've learned that your bolt rifle needs to be a certain type, and a larger chambering especially for Ele. Most start looking at the verious 416s, or a 458 Win Mag in a good CRF ( Control Round Feed )bolt rifle. This rifle should have good iron sights, as well as a low powered verible scope,in the 1.5-5 range with a bold reticle, in QD (Quick Detach) rings, and bases. This is a good idea, because you can't always depend on the PH to pull your nuts out of the fire, because he may be the first one hit, and you may have to shoot something off him. Cartridges from 416 Rem Mag, to 458 LOTT are the spread best suited to this, and you still have your 375 H&H for plains game, and as a legal back-up for your DGR, in case you run onto a Buffalo while stalking a zebra with you 375 H&H.

Now we come to the guy who finds he's hooked on DG hunting, and wants a double rifle for that purpose! He skipps a year of safari, so he can buy a good working double rifle for his next hunt! First, the rifle should be a side by side, and should have two triggers, and a non-auto safety. The use of selective ejectors, or extractors, is a personal choice,but no double rifle used for dangerous game should be fitted with a single trigger, or chambered for a rimless, or belted rimless cartridge.

The chamberings should all be rimmed NE type cartridges, statring at .400 cal on up to 500NE with the 577NE the absolute largest. The favorite chambering today is the 470NE, but I don't think it will do anything that the verious .450 won't do just as well. The 450/400NE 3", or 3 1/4" is a very good choice, as a first double rifle, as the recoil, in a double rifle, is little more than the 375H&H, in a bolt rifle, and these two make a fine combination for a safari. The 450/400NE is a great round for buffalo, and the cats, and can handle Ele as well, though light for the Ele. Not many people ever hunt Ele, but if you are one who wants to hunt little else, like Will, then you need to get your double in one of the .450s on up to a 500NE! IMO, if you want something bigger than the .450s, then I'd go straight up to the 500NE, jumping over the 470NE, and the veriuos others between the 450, and 500!

The bullets used on DG, should be two types, quality softs, and solids! Softe only for the cats, and softs, and solids for the Cape Bufflao, and solids only for Hippo, and Elephant.

First off, no matter what rifle or chambering you are shooting, make the first shot count, because if you do, your life will be safer, than where botched shots will drag you!

MacD27 --

This is the sort of stuff not discussed locally. Exactly what I had in mind. The biggest bore we shoot locally is the 45/70 Govt. for Roosevelt Elk.

Now and then you'll see a 45/90, 110, 120, but they're oddities.

Not going to hunt with it, I'm thinking about a 50 BMG. But the DG African calibers have a mystique you don't get with a 50 BMG.

Thanks

The 50 BMG ususally uses pointed bullets, which are unsatisfactory for elephants because they veer off course when hitting bones. Also, the cartridge recoils so much that you have to use a rifle which is very difficult to carry very far.

-- And the 50 BMG is just too damned big/heavy to carry around, to afford a good fast well placed shot on dangerous game.

But beyond this -- There's an historical thread running through the development of African Dangerous Game rifles. It's entirely removed from the likes of the 50 BMG, which is a military application in an anti-aircraft machine gun.

I'm looking at a double, a big one. Holland & Holland, just because it's the "concourse" gun with all the fine finish attributes that makes it something you'd buy a separate safe for.

*S*

You know, investment gun, safe queen.

quote:

Originally posted by 45/70 Govt.:
--I'm looking at a double, a big one. Holland & Holland, just because it's the "concourse" gun with all the fine finish attributes that makes it something you'd buy a separate safe for.

*S*

You know, investment gun, safe queen.

Holland& Holland HUH??????? Well bring your checkbook, credit card, and loan officer! H&H doubles start at around $100K for a new one, with a three to five year wait to take delivery! Even clean field grade H&Hs run $40K and Purdeys double that!

I'd give a thought to haveing Butch Searcy build me a rifle to fit, in the $12k to $15K range, or give a gander at the Heym at around $16K new. However, the Krieghoff, Merkel,and Chapuis, in th $10K range will last longer than you will need it, and you can leave it to your kids when you die.

If you want to find a good used double rifle, the Britt double will cost you the most, and it is easy to get stung here, if your not well up on what to look for. The price for the Britt rifles will be high, if in a good chambering, and in good machanical shape, and higher if one of the upper models! OR......you can find one of the OFF THE SHELF rifles, used, in the $7k, to $10K ranges, and most likely be better off, because these rifle are usually bought for a couple of Safaris, then sold to re-coupe the money, but can be had at a bargain price! I've bought several of my doubles that way!

One final warning, don't be tempted to buy some of the cheap double rifles being offered today chambered for the 45-70, 45-90, 45-120 rounds you mention. Though they are fun to play with, and are fine for North America, they are not for African DG, and though you say you are bound to home turf, you may get a chance to go to Africa, and you want you double to be suitable for Africa's bad boys. I do have some of those chamberings in double rifles, but they are range queens, or pig guns! Fun though they are, the money spent to buy them would have gone a long way on the price of a better choice!

Good luck with what ever you buy, but every big game hunter needs to own at least one double rifle in his life!

The 275 Rigby or 6,5 Mannlicher, but don't miss the spot, I heard it's unforgiving!

OK -- You're talking to a "major dweeb" here. That's ancient surfer vernacular for someone who is clueless but interested.

I found the Holland & Holland site. They don't talk about prices. You know what that means.

("If ya gotta ask price, you're in the wrong showroom.")

I'm waiting, drumming fingers, bored out of my gourd here, for a Ruger No. 1 in 45/70 Govt. coming back from the mfg. for repair.

Yeah, I know -- GeorgeS thinks it's a "handgun round."

Locally, Pacific Northwest, it's 45/70 Govt. for the "big bore" and then you go into the 50 BMG.

Of course the 50 BMG is for hoodlums in their second childhood who like to poke holes in cinder block buildings at ranges of a mile or more.

I'm just nostalgic for some side by side double in some sort of Nitro Express cal. But I'm curious what's out there in hardware these days.

My other compulsion is to get into shooting clays.

legal calibers... starting at about the 375HH, though some places i understand, allow some 9,3s.

For my safety, if I were ever to choose to do this, would be a 458, 475, 505, 510,550 or 585 bullet, at least .300 SD and at least 2050 MV, higher is better, if you can shoot it.


458 Lott with solids would be my choice of "affordable" guns.. get a cz or a ruger in that caliber, and shoot it till you melt the barrel!!!

jeffe

If I were you I would look at a Chapuis 9.3x74R. You can pick one up for around 5K and it will be great for Africa though IMO a bit light for Elephant.

WAY, WAY to light for elephant in my opinion.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by bulldog563:
If I were you I would look at a Chapuis 9.3x74R. You can pick one up for around 5K and it will be great for Africa though IMO a bit light for Elephant.

More interested in the big bore, "Nitro Express" sorts of calibers. We don't see them around here at all. Bores larger than 50 cal. are unlawful in the United States -- despite what they say about "-- the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

quote:

Originally posted by 45/70 Govt.:
We don't see them around here at all. Bores larger than 50 cal. are unlawful in the United States -- despite what they say about "-- the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Rifles are sold every day chambered for 500NE, (.510,) 577NE (.585) 600NE (.600), and 700NE (.700). All of which I've owned, except the 600NE, and 700NE, and still own a 577 cape gun!

That rule only applies to arms manufacturers, as to what type firearm, and use the chamber resides in! Sporting arms are not included is the
so-called "DESTRUCTIVE WEAPONS" rule! And even then you can get a permit to own a forearm labled as a DESTRUCTIVE WEAPON, if you have a clean record! It is just that the chamberings start at 50 cal, for certain types of firearms/use to be declared a Destructive weapon.

www.champlinarms.com - www.doublegun.com -

www.gunsamerica.com - www.doublegunshop.com -

www.gunbroker.com - Pop around on these sites

and you'll get lots of prices and a foundation

to work from.

Mac,
to clarify, the 700 and 600 nitro are ATF named sporting cartridges and the weapons that shoot them, if used for sporting purposes, are sporting arms.

The 577 SPECFICALLY isn't listed.

I just received a sporting classsification for the 550 flanged, and Neal had to go through this process for the 550 mag and express.


The destructive rating starts measurement at .500 BORE, and use/function as reviewed by the ATF defines if it is a DD.

It is not illegal to own a gun larger than .500, it merely has conditions.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Mac,
to clarify, the 700 and 600 nitro are ATF named sporting cartridges and the weapons that shoot them, if used for sporting purposes, are sporting arms.

The 577 SPECFICALLY isn't listed.

I just received a sporting classsification for the 550 flanged, and Neal had to go through this process for the 550 mag and express.


The destructive rating starts measurement at .500 BORE, and use/function as reviewed by the ATF defines if it is a DD.

It is not illegal to own a gun larger than .500, it merely has conditions.

Thanks Jeffe, I believe that is what I just said, in my post quoted below! The post that said anything above .500 cal was illegal,was posted by 45-70 Govt and I disagreed, below!

quote:

Rifles are sold every day above .500 cal for 500NE, (.510,) 577NE (.585) 600NE (.600), and 700NE (.700). All of which I've owned, except the 600NE, and 700NE, and still own a 577 cape gun!

That rule only applies to arms manufacturers, as to what type firearm, and use the chamber resides in! Sporting arms are not included in the so-called "DESTRUCTIVE WEAPONS" rule! And even then you can get a permit to own a forearm labled as a DESTRUCTIVE WEAPON, if you have a clean record! It is just thet the chamberings start at 50 cal, for certain types of firearms to be declared a Destructive weapon.

Mac,
as always, we agree... i was just clarifying that the 577nitro isn't in those "CnR" or exempted calibers, though it should be...

jeffe

As one might be wont to ruminate at this time of the year --

"Ho Ho Ho"

I'm more and more getting the impression that the bore limit on US guns has some exceptions.

I'm just looking for "data" at this stage in the game.