The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores New Winchester M-70 Safari ExpressGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Has anyone experience of this new rifle ? How is it compared to the CZ 550 Safari Magnum ? | ||
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Ingvar I may be wrong but I don't believe they are out on the market yet. I called Winchester last week because I wanted one in .338 WM and the gentlmen told me that the New Model 70 will not be avaliable for a few more months. He thought maybe March or April they would start shipping rifles out of the factory. Hope this Helps Steve | |||
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I talked to the Winchester representative at SCI and he said they expect to start selling the new ones in June or July. | |||
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I looked them over at SHOT. They looked exactly like the ones from a few years ago to me. I have one ordered in .416 to test a little. I think it will definitely be spring-Summer... Good Hunting, Tim Herald Worldwide Trophy Adventures tim@trophyadventures.com | |||
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I was told June or July when I ordered mine in .458. | |||
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Wait for the Winchester M70, I've heard nothing but praise about the lighter calibers which are on the market, accuracy and out of the box ready to go, FN has done a wonderful job keeping this classic the rifleman's rifle. The CZ 550 is OK but always needs some work to get it Safari ready. "An individual with experience is never at the mercies of an individual with an argument" | |||
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I have a post 64, CRF, Model 70 in 375H&H and was never able to locate a one piece Leupold scope mount. The catalogs listed one for the "375HH only". Different from the 458wm or all others. I used a two piece base. I wonder now, will the new safari M70 in 375 differ from the 458WM? Will the 416 Rem be the same as 375H&H? Are the action lengths (or final machining) to be different now as apparently were in the past? More than a little ironic, after 60 year campaign to kill the 375 magnum length ctgs, the new safari grade will be offered in 375 and 416 rem, both magnum length ctgs. And now the 458WM is the oddball, shorty, exception too the 375HH standard. The Lott clearly is the new std 458. Winchester still has a battle to fight! Even though they could finally achieve the 60 year old dream of one action length safari rifle, they will now build two, just to pimp the dead horse 458. | |||
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I had one each of the Classic Safari Expresses from New Haven 375 H&H and 416 Rem Mag. Both actions were built on the Express action and were identical except for the chambering. Used the same scope bases, (.330 rear hole spacing which meant that the ejection/loading port was opened up to the rear and had the express bolt stop and ejector), same follower, and same magazine box (no spacers in the rear of the box). I saw one of the New Haven 458 Win Mags about 5 years ago and it was not built on the Express action. The rear hold spacing for the scope mounts was .860, same as for that standard long actions. The mag box also had a spacer in the rear. I don't know if all of the 458s were built this way, but the one I saw was. The 458 Win Mag that Winchester had on display at SCI, appeared to be built on an Express action. | |||
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If the 458 is built on the express action, I'll buy one ASAP and have it punched out to Lott. If on the standard action, I'll probably do it anyway, it'll just require a little more attention. Then again, I may just go pick up a Lott in a Ruger to match my 416 Rigby. That's never a bad thing. I'm anxious for these new Winnies. David Walker | |||
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Hi Guys just kicking this thread back to life as these rifles have now arrived in SA! Ther must be a lot more of you who can now comment?  http://www.bigbore.org/ http://www.chasa.co.za Addicted to Recoil ! I hunt because I am human. Hunting is the expression of my humanity... | |||
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The one thing that would make me swing to the CZ for a DGR is the Mauser type extractor undercut. | |||
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Hi Duane. please help my ignorance, but what do you mean by "extractor undercut"? Below is a photo of the bolt face from an article in our local gun rag.  http://www.bigbore.org/ http://www.chasa.co.za Addicted to Recoil ! I hunt because I am human. Hunting is the expression of my humanity... | |||
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IMO and from my experience the undercut is cut too close to the bolt face to enable the leverage required for proper ejection like the kind a CZ offers. Rugers have the same problem.If one is serious about rifles and has a choice,a rifle that ejects reliably would be best.To illustrate what I mean,try lifting a full can of coke or beer by the rim by pinching the rim and then try to do it with both fingers spread apart,one on the rim and the other about an inch below.You will find that you do not have the leverage to lift the can by pinching the rim.This is what a Winchester and Ruger bolt try to accomplish without success. | |||
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I'm no master gunmaker, but I did stay at a holiday inn express last night so here goes... My understanding is that the mauser undercut is when the groove around the blot face in the picture you have, has the side nearest the bolt face cut at a slight angle towards the bolt face. This is matched by a corresponding feature in the extracter claw that mates with the groove. This way when a cartridge is extracted, and it gets a little sticky, the extractor has a slight camming action where it is drawn into the groove and closes more tightly around the rim of the cartridge. This keeps the cartridge rim from popping out of the extrator when the bolt is pulled back from a stuck case. In theory it will rip the rim off before it lets the cartridge go. This is my understanding... . | |||
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TwoZero, you are correct, sir. Which is but one reason why Paul Mauser was such a genius. There are plenty of others, besides.  Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Really? I suppose that 1500+ successful extractions from my Mod 70 .375 don't count? Silly me... | |||
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I own 4 model 70's.I feel that I don't need to own 100 before I come to any conclusion as to how they extract and eject cases.All of the 4 I own don't come close to how my CZ's eject the cases.I guess if your used to crap and have not seen anything better,you may believe that you have the standard.Ask Ralph Martini about what he thinks of using a Win model 70 action for a custom project. | |||
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Well... - you try and ask Michael458 about the same!!!!!  The pre-64 Winnie is about as good as it gets. The Ruger works flawlessly as well, but may need a bit of gunsmith tuning first (my experience). So does the M98. And the BRNO/CZ actions (not a true Mauser 98) | |||
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This is something I knew nothing about; quite amazing. HEre is a link to an Empire Rifles page that mentions this. I am not good enough to see the difference as applies to this but you better guys may be able to see it. http://www.empirerifles.com/Mauser%2098.htm _Baxter | |||
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I love these model 70 discussions! I have not had a new Winchester in a long time because the several that I had from the New Haven plant were just junk. I am sure they are better guns now but my experience with the guns that came from the old plant just sent me to other makers. I know it is not everyone's cup of tea but in the smaller calibers I now shoot a Blaser R93. Even though it is a push feed gun, the R93 is a lot better gun than the Winchester. In the larger caliber, I might just suggest that you pick up a CZ in your caliber of choice and send it off to AHR. THEN, you'll really have something. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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shootaway; I have followed you on other threads-dented brass from the magazine box for one--you have the credibility of Carrottop.  So dont be calling M-70s crapSSR | |||
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It's all about leverage.[URL=  ]RUGER[/URL][URL= ]CZ[/URL][URL= ]Win.mod70[/URL] | |||
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Shootaway You are full of crap and I am sorry but you don't have a clue. I imagine you may have old POS push feed Winchesters? Who knows? But you really don't know what you are talking about. Who is Ralph Martini? Sorry does he know me? I work with these guns DAILY--Every single day. Shooting stuff you can only dream of, and I don't have problems. I can tell you that I have yet to see an out of the box CZ POS Work at all, feed, function or retain, and if you told me I could have 100 of them, I would refuse delivery if every damned one was free and shipping paid! Every one of these other POS wishes it was a Winchester M70--but they are not! Michael WINCHESTER M70 OR STAY AT HOME!!!!!!!!! http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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What's wrong with the Push feed M70's ? All mine work fine - 30.06, 458WM. The M70's that came out of the old factory - near the end, they had some major problems - I know one dealer that could not get ONE of the one's on his shelf to feed etc, kept getting new one's, they didn't work either. I agree with you re the CZ, they sometimes left a lot to be desired. | |||
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As to the extraction and ejection between a CZ and W70 CRF, I have multiple of both and the W70 is far superior in my opinion. It will throw ejected rounds or cases clear across the room if you are not careful. The CZ's may have the edge in other areas, but in my experience, extraction and ejection is not one of them. Mike | |||
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If you're gonna buy a PF action then spend a few more dollars & buy a MKV, at least it doesn't look like it was machined with an ax AND it wasn't sized for teenaged girls.  | |||
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Would AHR, who seems to prefer the CZ action, agree with this view that the M70 is better? Or is it just a matter of muchness? "Every AHR rifle is built with craftsmanship and modern manufacturing methods to produce a world-class firearm that is a joy to own and shoot. This simple philosophy is woven throughout each production phase of the AHR rifle, from the selection of premium walnut blanks to the precision metal working techniques employed by our craftsmen. The care exercised in crafting these AHR rifles will give our customers a lifetime of pride of ownership. AHR starts each rifle using the CZ-550 action made in the Czech Republic. The CZ-550 is a modern rendition of the Model 70 and the famed Mauser 98 action. CZ has taken the best of these two actions and incorporated additional performance and safety features. The fit and finish of the CZ-550 produces a superior smooth-working action." http://www.hunting-rifles.com/...ame/danger_game1.htm Warrior | |||
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500 I bought up a lot of those M70s after New Haven shut the doors. But, all the ones I bought were WSM and WSSM actions to covert to B&Ms. Several of the RUM rifles to build to 500 MDM. Bought several 300s--7mm--338 Win rifles as well. The only thing I have found on any of these is that I swear I think they built some of the blued Ultimate WSMs out of floor sweepings. Triggers rough, safety did not work proper, and a couple of other minor issues, all of which are pretty simple to fix. But yes, they swept the floor for parts, threw them together and sent them out. I had this happen on about 4-5 rifles, out of well over a 100 that I bought up. I bought a bunch of Super Grades during that time and they were all premium rifles, I built other things on them of course. Never had an issue with any of the stainless guns, or sporters. Just that one model, blued Ultimates that I noticed this. I have a couple dozen 358s, 416s, 458 Wins, 458 Lotts---All have been shot EXTENSIVELY--Some with over a 1000 rounds through them, NEVER AN ISSUE--Not Once-nothing, never. Now I have two 470 Capsticks from the Custom Shop and they are not worth a damn! Custom Shop did not know what they were doing when it come to some things, this was one of those! Neither would retain cartridges in the magazine, both receivers were replaced because the scope base holes were so far out of line they could not be fixed, and both have .477 caliber barrels! So, good as I love a WInchester, like everyone on the planet, they made a mistake with these too! Hell, I make mistakes myself, at least once, just trying to recall, seems I forget now! HEH HEH. Truth be known--I take those two POS 470 Capstick over the finest CZ that has EVER BEEN PRODUCED! END OF STORY!!!!!! Hell I'd take a Win M70 Push Feed before a CZ. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Warrior "The fit and finish of the CZ-550 produces a superior smooth-working action." After working on them. Not straight out of the box. I reckon they can be as clunky as anything out of the box. . | |||
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There might be a downside in owning too many rifles and that is you never know if they keep on working the same day they did when you first bought them because you haven't shot them long enough. | |||
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Michael, you need to try a Blaser R93. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Dave Buddy--Good to hear you back up and running with us again! Have not heard from you in awhile! Now, you know better than that! Me and a R93 won't work together! That thing is funny looking, and you know how hard it is to teach an old dog new tricks!  HEH Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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The Win model 70 was built not to be the best at shooting or functioning but the best at making money.A couple of the things they left out was passion and experience. | |||
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NUTBAG!!!!!!!!!  http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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WAIT?? Did I miss something?? CZ has more experience in the firearms biz than Winchester? What technology did CZ invent recently? Ever? | |||
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He may be posting from a Cafe in Amsterdam ...  | |||
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Ah, yea, you are probably right.  I guess the downside to using the same rifle all the time is that after 200 rounds the barrels are all shot out.  Mike | |||
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Not the ones that where made and installed right.One of my Ruger lotts might make it to 3000. | |||
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If the choice is between a perfect M70 and a perfect M98, I'd take the Mauser system everytime. The only reason to favor the M70 is that it is so much easier to achieve perfection with that simplified action. The same argument could be used to favor the Remington 700 over the M70. ______________________________ "Truth is the daughter of time." Francis Bacon | |||
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