quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:
If the choice is between a perfect M70 and a perfect M98, I'd take the Mauser system everytime.

The only reason to favor the M70 is that it is so much easier to achieve perfection with that simplified action. The same argument could be used to favor the Remington 700 over the M70.

Exactly.

.

Here's proof.This is the CZ Ralph Martini worked on. [URL=]CZ VIDEO Merry Christmas to everyone!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:
If the choice is between a perfect M70 and a perfect M98, I'd take the Mauser system everytime.

The only reason to favor the M70 is that it is so much easier to achieve perfection with that simplified action. The same argument could be used to favor the Remington 700 over the M70.

HUH In what way are you comparing a M-70 and a M-700. One CRF one pushfeed
one flat bottmed , one round
and how is a M-70 "simpler" than a Mauser and continueing that that isnt simpler generally better in a mechanism that needs to be reliable.


as far as shootaway: someone get him back on his meds or back in his room.

SSR

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:
If the choice is between a perfect M70 and a perfect M98, I'd take the Mauser system everytime.

The only reason to favor the M70 is that it is so much easier to achieve perfection with that simplified action. The same argument could be used to favor the Remington 700 over the M70.

HUH In what way are you comparing a M-70 and a M-700. One CRF one pushfeed
one flat bottmed , one round
and how is a M-70 "simpler" than a Mauser and continueing that that isnt simpler generally better in a mechanism that needs to be reliable.

SSR

I hope you're not so completely ignorant in all facets of your life.

I find Shootaway's comment about asking Ralf Martini about building custom rifles on Winchester Mod. 70s a bit odd, as several of Ralf's custom rifles shown on his site are built on exactly these actions, both Pre-64 and Classic versions.

He has one P-64 H&H action with early Sunny Hill drop mag, one of the nicest P-64s of the 42 I have owned and it came from my former stash of actions via a buddy of mine who traded it to Ralf.

Sooooo, I kinda wonder about Shootaway.

That said, the older Brno actions, 21/22 and ZG series make any MOd. 70 every made look crude and even my Dakota customized BY Ralf is not the rifle my ZG-47 he customized is. Newer CZ-550s are a good place to start, but, just as with all contemporary commercial actions, they need work to meet their design potential, IMHO.

Easy guys.. Calm down.. Both are good actions - I like the pre64 and the M98 about the same.. Agree with Jay that Shootaway might be on a cafe in Amsterdam writing this - one of those drug cafès

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:
If the choice is between a perfect M70 and a perfect M98, I'd take the Mauser system everytime.

The only reason to favor the M70 is that it is so much easier to achieve perfection with that simplified action. The same argument could be used to favor the Remington 700 over the M70.

I would take M70 and because of bedding configuration. I am well aware the M98 can be made to shoot but I would just prefer the M70.

Big recoil lug, perfectly positioned front screw and large tang.

M98, tiny recoil lug, reduced amout of stock material behind the lug and tiny tang.

Again, I know the M98 can be made to shoot but just how I am.

In Australia (maybe America is the same) the big plus of the M98 is low dollars to kick off the project and especially if compared to Pre 64 M70

quote:

Originally posted by Dewey:
I find Shootaway's comment about asking Ralf Martini about building custom rifles on Winchester Mod. 70s a bit odd, as several of Ralf's custom rifles shown on his site are built on exactly these actions, both Pre-64 and Classic versions.

He has one P-64 H&H action with early Sunny Hill drop mag, one of the nicest P-64s of the 42 I have owned and it came from my former stash of actions via a buddy of mine who traded it to Ralf.

Sooooo, I kinda wonder about Shootaway.

That said, the older Brno actions, 21/22 and ZG series make any MOd. 70 every made look crude and even my Dakota customized BY Ralf is not the rifle my ZG-47 he customized is. Newer CZ-550s are a good place to start, but, just as with all contemporary commercial actions, they need work to meet their design potential, IMHO.

I think if you approach a rifle maker about building a rifle with your favorite action they are not going to put it down.If however your are patient,and they are patient and you are willing to spend a little more money and are open to all choices,they might reject the win model 70 proposal again and again.In the end the only way of telling which action functions better is to use them often both at the range and for dry fire/loading and arrive at the conclusion.Those cases in the video have their rims worn out so much that my Rugers will not eject them at all.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
In the end the only way of telling which action functions better is to use them often both at the range and for dry fire/loading and arrive at the conclusion.

- tell that again to Michael458, few has as much experience as he has... Though I dont agree with him that the CZ`s are POS. I have one CZ550 Mag made in 416 Wby calibre, that rifle works very well indeed and has served me for many years incl many african safaris (have shot out one barrel - and no it was not finished after 200 rounds... - took around 3500)..

Shootaway

If some idiot gunsmith were to refuse working with a Winchester M70, then I don't want or desire to work with that Idiot! And if there is a gunsmith on this forum right now, that is in that category, then you are an inexperienced idiot--And I would not consider you for any sort of work at all! Go back to working with a Remington please! And, I could care less how good any gunsmiths reputation is--if he is in that category--spade is a spade any way you cut it!

I have known a few gun builders/gunsmiths, and so forth in my day, I never heard of any of them refusing to work with a Winchester M70--everything else wants to be a M70! What an Idiot statement to think otherwise.

Now, this idiot thread has degenerated to stupidity, I really don't have time for, and will be moving on to important, real issues, thank you very much!

Sorry for any ugly references to other favorites out there--But you guys all know how I am and more than likely my buddy Shootaway is yanking my chain on purpose, I know he has been known to do that from time to time, and it works! HEH--

LOL

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:
If the choice is between a perfect M70 and a perfect M98, I'd take the Mauser system everytime.

The only reason to favor the M70 is that it is so much easier to achieve perfection with that simplified action. The same argument could be used to favor the Remington 700 over the M70.

HUH In what way are you comparing a M-70 and a M-700. One CRF one pushfeed
one flat bottmed , one round
and how is a M-70 "simpler" than a Mauser and continueing that that isnt simpler generally better in a mechanism that needs to be reliable.

SSR

I hope you're not so completely ignorant in all facets of your life.

If you are trying to convince me that a M-70 and a M700 are comprable actions or that complicated is preferable to simple then I will remain happy in in my so called ignorance

Not saying that a m-70 is better than a m-700, just very differnt and for differnt functions.

BTW need to work on that condiscending attitude--needs more edge


SSR

I believe D'arcy Echols (forgive my spelling) bases most of his offerings on P64 win actions. His stuff is pretty well thought of.
I have rifles built on CZ's, Mod 70's CRF and push feed, Rem 700, Sakp L61,579's and AV, weatherby, Kimber (Oregon) and honestly, I do not have issue with any of them. Most have been tweeked to my liking. I do think the older Sako actions are the most precision actions commercially made but that is just IMHO.


EZ

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Here's proof.This is the CZ Ralph Martini worked on. [URL=]CZ VIDEO Merry Christmas to everyone!!!!

This video clip is short of amazing.

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Dewey:
I find Shootaway's comment about asking Ralf Martini about building custom rifles on Winchester Mod. 70s a bit odd, as several of Ralf's custom rifles shown on his site are built on exactly these actions, both Pre-64 and Classic versions.

He has one P-64 H&H action with early Sunny Hill drop mag, one of the nicest P-64s of the 42 I have owned and it came from my former stash of actions via a buddy of mine who traded it to Ralf.

Sooooo, I kinda wonder about Shootaway.

That said, the older Brno actions, 21/22 and ZG series make any MOd. 70 every made look crude and even my Dakota customized BY Ralf is not the rifle my ZG-47 he customized is. Newer CZ-550s are a good place to start, but, just as with all contemporary commercial actions, they need work to meet their design potential, IMHO.

I think if you approach a rifle maker about building a rifle with your favorite action they are not going to put it down.If however your are patient,and they are patient and you are willing to spend a little more money and are open to all choices,they might reject the win model 70 proposal again and again.In the end the only way of telling which action functions better is to use them often both at the range and for dry fire/loading and arrive at the conclusion.Those cases in the video have their rims worn out so much that my Rugers will not eject them at all.

I have used my rifles in Grizzly country all over BC and in western AB for 46+ years and in every month of the year. They have often been in mountain tent camps for weeks at a time, in the worst weather and with only basic maintenance,so, I have a pretty fair idea of what really works and when and how.

At present, I have 31 bolt action big game rifles, most custom to some degree and two combo guns and two lever actions, a Sako Finnwolf and a Browning 1886-SRC and I have owned about 100 others since 1965. Again, I have enough field experience and gun handling experience to have a realistic grasp on what actually works,....I have shot at the odd range, as well.

You make a lot of brazen and untoward comments here and I think that you need more field time and less ...dryfiring....

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
I believe D'arcy Echols (forgive my spelling) bases most of his offerings on P64 win actions. His stuff is pretty well thought of.
I have rifles built on CZ's, Mod 70's CRF and push feed, Rem 700, Sakp L61,579's and AV, weatherby, Kimber (Oregon) and honestly, I do not have issue with any of them. Most have been tweeked to my liking. I do think the older Sako actions are the most precision actions commercially made but that is just IMHO.


EZ

Darcy uses the Classic, not P-64 actions for his rifles and that alone should be a serious recommendation of them to any knowledgeable riflenut.

I have a sts. .338WM that Ralf has touched up and is going into a Micky Fwt. stock after Christmas to be my "beater" in crappy weather as my originals are too nice and valuable to use then and I find nothing wrong with this action. In fact, my working wilderness rifles, by choice, have largely been Mod. 70s because they are so easy to maintain under field conditions and are not too pricey.

Ralf is a hell of a fine gunsmith, probably one of the best in the world. Ralf is European, learned his trade in Europe, builds European style rifles and prefers the European style on his own rifles. It is not much of a stretch to think that he would favor European actions to American actions typically used in American styled rifles.

IMO, a Mauser looks somewhat out of place on an American Classic styled rifle with long forearm and straight comb. Likewise a Winchester would look out of place on a German styled rifle with short forearm and lots of drop.

While I think highly of Ralf, I'd not base any of my opinions on the input of one solitary person, especially considering that Ralf has built some pretty darn nice rifles on Winchesters (which leads me to believe that once again shootforbrains has heard only what he wants to hear).

As for the ridiculous video posted, who can't cycle a rifle fast when they never let go of the bolt handle? Unless you are trying to kill the ants at your feet by dropping cartridges on them, it is meaningless as the rifle doesn't require re-cocking between cycles leading to a MUCH easier bolt throw. Hell, my 8 year old can do that all day long with her Remington 700 based 25 Souper.

Try it that fast pulling the trigger each time, then do it again while actually firing and I will be impressed.

The question was: How does the M70 safari compare against the CZ550 magnum. My 2c.

1. Reliability - M70 wins hand down.

Out of the box, the M70 should be a reliable working gun ready to hunt. Odds 99.7% are you could just take an M70 and start hunting. Period.

Out of the box the CZ550 magnuns that come off the boat from Check republic for $1,000 typically have problems. Often. Crooked barrels, feeding. Thank god for AHR!

2. Weight - Your preference

The M70 is lighter an advantage for the 375H&H. I prefer the big stock and weight of the CZ550 in the 458Lott or larger.

3. Choice of calibers- CZ wins all day long.

The M70 only three and NO Lott! Stupid! The CZ550 is just about anything you want if you include the custom shop in St Louis. Up to 505 Gibbs, 404 J, etc.. And the 458Lott and 416Rigby are standard offerings.

4. Fire power - CZ550.

CZ has 50% higher magazine capacity.

5. Scope mounting - CZ again.

CZ is milled for rings, no bases to mess with and much cleaner setup with QR rings or QR peeps.

6. Cost - I give it to M70.

CZ is cheaper up front, but after you fix the problems they actually cost more. That includes both fixing CZ bugs and upgrading the CZ safety to equal the M70.

I own both guns and I like both.

Super answer thankyou Fourbore. And thanks for bringing this thread back from the pissing match it was becoming

I'm guessing that the CZ would be the choice for a re-work to a wildcat. I'm thinking of a cartridge also covered here on AR recently. That thread too has become a pissing match; see 460 Bauer

There are a lot of good options in rifles/actions today. There are strengths and weaknesses in all of them, some weaknessess are easier to correct then others.

If you are not shooting a box stock rifle, your gunsmith can make the rifle of YOUR choice work for YOU.

For an example gunsmith tweak, I'd rather replace a barrel then fix an out of square action. The newer Remington rifles come to mind as being lower quality today then in years past. AHR works wonders with CZ's at a moderate cost to make a stellar rifle. Winchesters are certainly customizable within the limits of what they offer in the basic rifle actions. So while I have a preference for CZ rifles, any Mauser derivative that has been "tuned" by a qualified gunsmith would find a happy home in my gun safe. As noted in the 375 H&H options, do I really want a heavy 6 or 8 shooter - I'd prefer the more trim M-70 but instead I bought a CZ in 9.3x62 to go with my bigger CZ's.

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:
If the choice is between a perfect M70 and a perfect M98, I'd take the Mauser system everytime.

The only reason to favor the M70 is that it is so much easier to achieve perfection with that simplified action. The same argument could be used to favor the Remington 700 over the M70.

The CZ550 consists of approximately 120 plus individual components with many small and delicate pieces and parts. Compare this with a 98Mauser which consists of 32 stout and robust parts of which most can be easily field repaired. This is why I always question those who stand on a soap box and proclaim the CZ as being the perfect bomb proof wilderness rifle. It's a good shooting rifle with a multi-adjustable trigger, but in no way, and by a country mile, is it anywhere near the same league as a battlefield Mauser when it comes to field reliability.

I had a Magnum 550 I used for bear hunts that was exposed to a good amount of salt spray. The action uses a silly little wire spring that looks about like a paper clip twisted in a loop. The quality control on this part was POS and it quickly corroded and lost tension which completely disabled the rifle. The gunsmith, Eagleshield, at CZ-USA was having so many problems with that spring, that he tried to keep spares on hand for in-shop repairs. My understanding was they were urging CZ to make improvements in production and due to supply problems, he rarely could spare any to send out from the shop. I managed to get three from him, but the first one I used lost tension ASAP, so I gave up and had a quality spring made which has held up. I think they have since got it straight and I learned to do a better job with my annual inspections and maintenance, but if you were to completely disassemble a CZ and look at all the parts, you'll quickly see how far it is away from a simple and robust 98 Mauser.



That silly little paperclip wire spring does something of major importance in the operation of the rifle, it controls the sear!!



For anyone interested who does not know what a 98 Mauser sear spring looks like, well here you go. You can see right off the bat that the Mauser part is built for some serious duty application in extreme battlefield trench warfare. Just that one singular part alone, the differences in durability are near complete polar opposites. Now imagine a whole slew of parts used in the assembly of the rifle with similar differences.

This was nothing new, here is a write up on the issue from way back in 2002 involving multiple users. Even Phil Shoemaker reported having the same problem with his CZ in "Rifle's Hunting Annual" number 6, fall 2002:

"#1
nextjoe
Member
Join Date: December 24, 2002
Location: Detroit area
Posts: 348

CZ problem - anyone seen this?

I wrote this for another forum I frequent, but I want to post it here and see if anyone else has encountered this situation.
-----

I did some investigating into the problem D Hunter reported, regarding his CZ 550 sometimes failing to cock. I examined one of my own CZs and found I could recreate this problem. Here are two pictures illustrating the problem, along with an explanation. First, the way it should be:

This photo illustrates the way the sear should return to position after lifting the bolt handle. It springs all the way back up and clears the trigger. Now here's the problem:

This shows the sear hung up on the rear of the trigger and therefore not resetting to its proper position. Compare the area in the red circle to the picture above.

Note that in both pictures the bolt is open and partially retracted. As soon as the cocking piece clears the sear, the sear SHOULD spring back up into place (reset). The malfunction occurs when the sear gets stuck on the back of the trigger and doesn't reset. When this happens, the sear isn't in place to catch the cocking piece as the bolt closes. The result is an uncocked rifle with the firing pin resting on the primer of the chambered round. NOT GOOD!

D Hunter reported that this happened more often if he short stroked the bolt of his rifle. On my rifle, I found the problem only occurs if the bolt is lifted very gently and smoothly. To me, this indicates that the jolt of opening the bolt briskly or bringing it back against the bolt stop smartly is enough to jar the sear loose so that it resets properly.

How do we fix it? My guess is that two things need to be done. First, a stronger sear spring will help to assure that the sear resets properly. Second, the back of the trigger and front of the sear should probably be polished a bit more to reduce friction and decrease the chances of these surfaces sticking.

I don't know the history of D Hunter's rifle, but mine is completely unaltered and exactly as it came from CZ. No attempt has been made to adjust the trigger or otherwise change any part of the rifle.

I'll be contacting CZ-USA regarding this problem ASAP and reporting back to the group regarding their response. In the meantime, if any forum members could check their guns for this problem and report back, it would help establish how widespread this condition might be. Phil Shoemaker reported having the same problem with his CZ in "Rifle's Hunting Annual" number 6, fall 2002.

Thank you.

Best,
Joe"


I ended up modifying the rifle and installing a custom made spring which worked well. In addition, I had the entire works, less springs, coated in Armaloy TDC. On top of that, I was shown the recipe to make an alox LP that is used to protect machine parts transported on the decks of ships which are exposed to salt spray. The entire combination turned the rifle into something I could submerge in sea water and not worry as long as I hosed it off with fresh water within a reasonable amount of time.

It was my understanding that CZ either made improvements to the spring and/or modified the parts to correct the problem. But even with this said, just the differences in shear number of parts used and the differences in stout construction favors the 98 over the CZ to reduce the likelihood of Murphy and his law. I'm still a user of CZ products and I do enjoy their accuracy, but the experiences I just described is why I always show signs of reservation with my posts about the CZ.

Best

Are we talking CZ action or trigger-two different things.I wonder if changing the trigger for a Timney would do away with the cheap piece.I can say that my CZ action with its Timney has proven itself to be a tough and reliable thing so far.My gunsmith told me the CZ trigger is to fragile and recommended I change it a few years ago.I did and the new Timney is a gem.Many here believed the original trigger was good enough.I guess they might now have second thoughts.

Darn, seems like every time I have success with a certain rifle (in this case the CZ 550) I log onto an internet forum and find out that it is trash, by my count every rifle I own has been named a POS at some point or another, guess I should better educate myself for future purchases

quote:

Originally posted by jackguthary:
Darn, seems like every time I have success with a certain rifle (in this case the CZ 550) I log onto an internet forum and find out that it is trash, by my count every rifle I own has been named a POS at some point or another, guess I should better educate myself for future purchases

quote:

Originally posted by jackguthary:
Darn, seems like every time I have success with a certain rifle (in this case the CZ 550) I log onto an internet forum and find out that it is trash, by my count every rifle I own has been named a POS at some point or another, guess I should better educate myself for future purchases

Just that you your lucky stars you are not a Wby man

At least you have CRF. If you have CRF and it jams that is acceptable

GaryVA,

Good post....Thanks!

I will have a look at my own 55os and see what I find.

I am planning on replacing the factory triggers with the Timney model.

I wonder if the change will take the spring out of the equation or allow for modification?

I love my czs but they are not perfect.....

Best Regards,
Dave

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
IMO and from my experience the undercut is cut too close to the bolt face to enable the leverage required for proper ejection like the kind a CZ offers. Rugers have the same problem.If one is serious about rifles and has a choice,a rifle that ejects reliably would be best.To illustrate what I mean,try lifting a full can of coke or beer by the rim by pinching the rim and then try to do it with both fingers spread apart,one on the rim and the other about an inch below.You will find that you do not have the leverage to lift the can by pinching the rim.This is what a Winchester and Ruger bolt try to accomplish without success.

Nonsense. I've had at least 1500 successful extractions from my New Haven .375 purchased Dec. '05 without a failure of any kind, and some of it on well-used brass that had expanded a bit too much. Out of the box accuracy is MOA. I had a forty dollar trigger job done and went buff hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
IMO and from my experience the undercut is cut too close to the bolt face to enable the leverage required for proper ejection like the kind a CZ offers. Rugers have the same problem.If one is serious about rifles and has a choice,a rifle that ejects reliably would be best.To illustrate what I mean,try lifting a full can of coke or beer by the rim by pinching the rim and then try to do it with both fingers spread apart,one on the rim and the other about an inch below.You will find that you do not have the leverage to lift the can by pinching the rim.This is what a Winchester and Ruger bolt try to accomplish without success.

Nonsense. I've had at least 1500 successful extractions from my New Haven .375 purchased Dec. '05 without a failure of any kind, and some of it on well-used brass that had expanded a bit too much. Out of the box accuracy is MOA. I had a forty dollar trigger job done and went buff hunting.

Agreed. Have owned many CRF M70s with nary a problem. Many thousands of rounds through them.

The CZ is much better at extracting and ejecting cases.I should start practicing continously with my CZ this week.I will be checking function in all departments including offhand accuracy.I will then compare it to all the shooting I did with my Ruger and arrive at a conclusion as to which is better...If by any chance one of the two shoots much more accurate offhand at 100yds then I will stay with that one.I did pretty good last week at 50yds with the CZ.

Maybe a little off topic, but a while back I purchased a Remington 798 (Zastava) in 375 H&H. I have not shot this gun, but the action is smooth and metal finish is great. The stock just doesn't fit me. I then purchased a Winchester Safari in 375 and the stock fits me perfect. I actually considered a new stock from Accurate Innovations for the Remington, but the new Winchester was a cheaper option. How does the Mauser action on the Remington compare?

jetdvr and cane rat,

Dont worry about shootaway- he lives in an alternate universe and doesnt understand English but he is pleasant and generally harmless.

SSR

I just dont get it with some folks. When is good enough vs. better conclusive when dealing with rifles? Kind of like saying when is dead really dead? When its dead it is dead enough. All of the Mauser"s and their clones that have control round feeding will function fine albeit with some help. The original question was out of the box is a CZ better that a Winchester Model 70, pre-64 as well as Classic. The CZ requires more work and by a very competent smith familiar with CZ rifles! They are not a dime a dozen. Duane, Ralph, Sterling, and a quite a few others can really make either really sing! The fact is once they are stroked a bit by a pro there is only theoretical differences.

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
jetdvr and cane rat,

Dont worry about shootaway- he lives in an alternate universe and doesnt understand English but he is pleasant and generally harmless.

SSR