Idaho
give up the stories the books and the marketing statistics and go shoot 50 of ''each''

then get on here and tell us how smart you are and how simple we do and think

come on man rest it --many of us have handled cattle in ranch herds milked dairy cattle and so on

the most danger I have seen is wild cattle

one slick ear 3 year old bull broke my right leg and dam near killed me one day

had I a 30 30 close he would not have got away with that

all this argument accomplishes is to make fat meat out of ass meat

I performed surgeries on farmers attacked by domestic bovines while on call in general surgery several years ago.As i was the main surgeon in my city hospital -a rural town in Cordoba Argentina -we deal with this cases very often ,even with farmers attacked by the normally good temper argentine-dutch cows breeded in dairy farms .
Some bovines like the cebu and buffalo produced accidents too .
I have several friends in the local guide community that have had injuries but any of them were fatal.
The Cape buffalo produces deadly charges each year so if we have to coose the Cape buffalo is without doubt the most agressive and wary .
Said this ,i can agree that water buffalo CAN charge and can provide a very interesting hunt.

I have had a lot of debates in the past with Matt Graham about Aussie feral buffalo (Bubalis Bubalis) and the genuine wild buffalo of Assam India (Bubalis arni). The feral water buffalo is a different SPECIES from the true wild buffalo.

In Assam and some other remote parts of India you do get occasional hybrids - village buffalo cows breeding with a wild (b. arni) bull. The progeny are very aggressive and impossible to tame. Once they are sub adults and start to get cranky, they are on the butchers block!

Once you get that picture, the situation is much clearer regarding comparisons with cape buffalo.

All animals can & do attack. I have been bitten a few times by the 200 gram striped squirrels in India. On a deer hunt in Stewart island I was bitten at night on my eyebrow by a rat!

A small 15 kg muntjack deer that is wounded will kick, bite and try to kill you. When I was in the tea estates in the early 1980s, a colleague had a muntjack buck as a pet (I had 3). This guys wife used to feed this buck for at least 3 years. One day a visitor - a woman - tried to feed this buck and it bit her fore arm and crushed the bones!

I have not hunted any buffalo. I realise that it is great fun to hunt all of them. Heck - I have great fun hunting (or shooting) feral goats! Some goats have great cork screw horns and shaggy hair. But I am not going to claim that they are Markhor!

Having said that - I will never look at a Aussie feral buffalo the same way as I would any truly WILD buffalo - be it a cape or a Assam buffalo. The wild ones just get my heart pumping.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Good day.
I've shot several of both. Every cape I've seen runs off if they see me or wind me first.

The water buffalo is a bit different. The horns are less impressive, sans boss, but since they have not been hunted as often or as long and since they are not preyed upon by lions they seem more fearless. The water buff I've encountered seem to stand their ground, even walking up to the hunter. I'm sure this is out of curiosity, but it makes for an exciting hunt to look a buff in the eyes and aim and shoot rather than look at the quarry as it is running away.

I definitely agree with Cal's observation here. It is very noticeable when hunting the Asian buffalo in the top end of Australia that they do more often than not stand their ground and as Cal says, in many cases actually advance towards the hunter. If they are in some cover the large Asian buffalo will stand until you get quite close in full view while they raise their head, stare you down and get noticeably twitchy. Now is that not what hunting dangerous game all about, getting in close on a large animal all the while it is eye balling you and you are not quite sure what it will do. After all isn't this what those fortunate enough to hunt elephant tell us the ultimate buzz is, getting in close to a large and imposing animal and not quite knowing what it will do especially when it knows you are there?

As most seem to agree the Asian is also quite a lot bigger and not according to Idaho's assertion because they have been domesticated and bred for fatness (and by inference soft and non-aggressive) but because the sub-tropical top end of Aussie is rich in food and water all year round. From images of Asian buffalo in the Asian countries especially where domesticated and used for agricultural duties, they are not overly large, often I suspect through lack of good forage

I have not hunted the African buffalo but through Saeed's generosity we can all enjoy hours of video showing the hunting and shooting of the Cape species and it seems without exception they run away on scenting the or sighting the hunter. The shots I have seen in Saeed's video and others who post their hunts on African buffalo are either shooting at longer range where the animal is not quite sure of who is there or completely unaware of the presence of a human being or shooting at closer range after a careful downwind stalk and taking the animal again usually unawares. There must be some face offs with unwounded Capes but I haven't seen many, or any, that I can recall in a lot of video.
I have no dog in the fight as to what is the proper way to hunt and shoot buffalo but having at least hunted and shot a few of the Asian buffalo I have great respect for their size and lack of fear of humans, whatever maybe the reason for that. I was most impressed with the size of their hearts, they are really huge and a small calibre bullet through the heart is not going to stop one of those buffalo in a short distance.

The OP question was "How do the 2 compare in regards to toughness, temper and difficulty to put down?" The Asian buffalo in the wild in Aussie as we have heard from many is the biggest of all buffalo and again from those who have shot a lot they can be hard to put down and soak up a lot of lead therefore in terms of "toughness" and "difficulty to put down" the Asian is as good as any. "Temper" can be a matter for conjecture and would generally only apply to a wounded animal, for as many instances of so called charges, in the greatest majority of instances the wounded African buffalo seems to run away.

First AUS buffalo killed by 585HE. By Tankunter.

Use closeup on picture to see loaded round on the buffs hide

next to 585HE Ruger #1. A nice heavy barreled gun..Ed

Naki, I don't give a shit what the pedigree is or isn't for my buffalo, but they are wild as hell! They are great fun to hunt, can scare the shit out of you, and can attack both unprovoked and when wounded. I do believe that they have more curiosity than aggression, but I also believe that many will run at the first sight or smell of man.

But, I do wish you all the very best for you Cape buffalo hunt, and I understand that not every game species on Earth appeals to all hunters. And that's fine.

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
First AUS buffalo killed by 585HE. By Tankunter.

Use closeup on picture to see loaded round on the buffs hide

next to 585HE Ruger #1. A nice heavy barreled gun..Ed

I got to check out that rifle on the same hunt. Its quite a piece of machinery.

Both can be dangerous, almost stepped on a cape buffalo bull about a week ago..getting run over can be dangerous for your health...it is amazing that you can almost step on a 1800 lb animal.

Ed

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Cal,

not to digress too much, but how many rounds did it take you to harvest your last Cape Buffalo? Ten or twelve, was it?

Asian/Water Buffalo, at best a couple thousand years of domesticating them bred all of the universal traits we admire/fear in Cape Buffalo out of the Asian. I saw hundreds of them in Vietnam, they were generally pulling carts or plows, often by pre-pubescent young boys. We recc'ed villages where females were being milked by the women.

You would probably be in more danger hunting American Bison in Yellowstone.

Every one here who has hunted Africa can tell you a couple stories about PH being gored, stomped, killed by Cape. Happens every year it seems.

It it makes somebody feel even a vague sense of danger hunting the Asian, they have most likely been told stories by the PH Company to make the outlandish prices charged customers seem more worthwhile.

Let it go guys, you're more likely to be harmed when you get home and your wife finds out you shot one of those harmless creatures she saw on a NatGeo documentary.

Rich

Oh, Rich, here we go again.
For a gent who won't buy my upcoming double rifle magazine as scrolling down a computer screen does not hold your interest, I notice you have 18,000+ posts on AR of your unsolicited wisdom.

As to your comments of my 2008 buffalo and the number of shots it took, you hashed that over many years ago to give me some of your digs of my poor shooting. And, my explanation was satisfactory: while I practiced many times the the rifle prior to my hunt (my Wilkes .600) and was shooting well and without flinch, all of my practice shots were slow and deliberate. When making quick shots at the buff, I was shooting high; failing to allow the front bead to settle in the rear sight's V. I will wait now, until the next time you want to give a shot or two and bring this up again. I suppose if I was of the same mindset I would bring up your 27 or 28 350-point elk shot whilst meat hunting (no photos, of course) or your Rambo-like tactics whilst in SE Asia that not only had the Vietcong but also the Red Chinese on the run. But, I'm not, so I won't mention them. My shots at the buff were not because he was dangerous or difficult to put down. It was my shot placement. My last buff dropped with one shot from the .600.

As to the buffalo, I am in the middle of your stance. I don't think any buffalo are dangerous. Yes, they can be, just as driving can be dangerous but generally it is not. In a post some time ago you wrote there were "thousands" of documented accounts of buffalo attacks. I don't think so. They are not in the old literature to any great extent. And, the stories from toddy's PHs and returning hunters are filled with lots of blue sky. I was taken to task once for belittling the cape buffalo by saying they were not dangerous. I think I belittled the hunters who tell folks of the great danger to puff themselves up and of PHs who tell of the danger to lift up the client's experience.

Now, I don't mean to insult anyone here but these are my observations. I've shot 13-14 (of both species) and seen hundreds. I've never felt and danger. Even Mark Sullivan will state that when he walks up to a wounded buffalo 95% will run off.

To write insultingly of the calm traits of the water buffalo is to speak from inexperience. The last four I shot (total rounds expended were 5) were staring me down between 20 and 60 yards. I did not feel in danger, but it was exciting to be there and doing that. While the cape has a nicer trophy with the boss, if I could only do one I would go after the water buffalo. Granted, it's not Africa but being face to face is to me more exciting than watching the cape run off.

For those who have been on the bad end of a cape buff experience I mean no disrespect.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Cheers, mates.
Cal

I totally agreed with Cal ,BUFFALO HUNTING isnt a question of life or death ,its an interesting sport that can provide a bit of adrenaline ,nothing more .

quote:

BUFFALO HUNTING isnt a question of life or death

Sure it is, but mostly for the buffalo.

Rich, I've got to tell you that each year in Australia there are close shaves with buffalo. I've been a part of a few myself, and I'm just a school teacher. One bloke got pretty seriously hurt this year.

Now, I'm not going to play the dumb game of saying this buffalo is nastier than that buffalo. It is pointless. But you just have to be careful around our buffalo. They are wild, they have killed people, they have hurt people.

Cape buffalo will usually avoid confrontation if he can wind you or see you, true.

If hit properly, any buffalo (and any animal, for that instance) will die obligingly, true as well, but that's what everybody has been saying for ages: hit them well, and you don't have a problem...

Now, hit a Cape buffalo badly, and things change quickly. When you have to follow a wounded buff in the thick, you are definitely taking greater risks than your life insurer is comfortable with.

Buff can ambush you, and charge unexpectedly leaving you seconds to react. And when wounded, they do take a lot of lead before they go down - unless you hit the CNS, of course, but that's not as easy as it seems when the thing explodes out of a bush four yards away on your weak side...

The sheer number of African hunters, PHs and people killed by Cape buffalo should give an inkling of the danger involved.

I've not hunted water buffalo, but I don't see the same reports over and over of people killed in action against it.

philip, perhaps it is because the same aura and mythical reputation do not surround the water buffalo. cape buff is considered dangerous game when really it is potentially dangerous game. If we apply that definition to them, then surely it should be applied to other buffalo species as the potential for something to go wrong is always a possibility. the site owner has killed cape buffalo in the triple digits and never felt threatened.

Max, a good hunter on his own can shoot dozens or even hundreds of buffalos and not have a problem (Bell matter-of-factly mentions that he never had any problem with a buffalo, despite dispatching hundreds of them for rations).

But the people making a living from guiding buffalo hunts have a different experience, because they actually have to mop up other people's mistakes, and find themselves in situations that are not of their own making.

There is a difference between going on your own when you're confident in your rifle, ammo, and own ability, and waiting for a near-stranger to take a shot at a buff, when you have no idea what the shooter is going to do and secretly pray "hit him right... Not another cock-up, please...". That's the other side of buffalo hunting, the one that gets PHs worried, and the one that puts "danger" on the table.

quote:

quote:
BUFFALO HUNTING isnt a question of life or death


Sure it is, but mostly for the buffalo.

Heh.

Bottom line - these are big, potentially dangerous animals. They deserve your respect. If you respect them, follow the rules, and don't make any mistakes, you probably aren't facing much danger. Similar to your drive to the grocery store. Respect the other cars on the road, follow the rules, don't make any mistakes. If you fail in any of those things, you could be hurt or killed. And of course you could just be unlucky - you do everything right and a drunk driver crosses the centerline and creams you - or you're just walking along, minding your business, hunting a bushbuck and a buffalo someone else wounded creams you. Could it happen? Sure. Should you brag to your friends about how brave you were because it didn't? No.

Personally, I think the Cape Buffalo is the more dangerous of the two if you DON'T respect him, or you fail to follow the rules or make a mistake. He's evolved facing predation from lions, and he's more likely to be aggressively defensive if you hurt him or push him. And in my limited experience that's what I've observed as well - the Cape seems more aggressive to me than the Asians.

I think everyone should bid up the price on the capes, and keep the price of the Aussies lower. That would suit me fine.

So far I've hunted buff in Africa, South America and Australia.

philip A


has made the most relevant

and best ''right'' point here

any one can shoot
any of em
with any thing
any where

cleaning up the outcome -- another matter

quote:

Originally posted by stradling:
philip A


has made the most relevant

and best ''right'' point here

any one can shoot
any of em
with any thing
any where

cleaning up the outcome -- another matter

Succinctly stated...

one could make a good argument that if you screw up with either someone will have to sort it out.

quote:

Originally posted by Philip A.:
Max, a good hunter on his own can shoot dozens or even hundreds of buffalos and not have a problem (Bell matter-of-factly mentions that he never had any problem with a buffalo, despite dispatching hundreds of them for rations).

But the people making a living from guiding buffalo hunts have a different experience, because they actually have to mop up other people's mistakes, and find themselves in situations that are not of their own making.

There is a difference between going on your own when you're confident in your rifle, ammo, and own ability, and waiting for a near-stranger to take a shot at a buff, when you have no idea what the shooter is going to do and secretly pray "hit him right... Not another cock-up, please...". That's the other side of buffalo hunting, the one that gets PHs worried, and the one that puts "danger" on the table.

Very true !

We have to wait till it is almost too late to do some thing or in fact is too late, but try to fix it any way !!

Bantang are worse than both of them !

Bantang are worse than both of them ![/QUOTE]

We got them in Australia too!