Hi guys,

This is a question for people that have hunted both cape and water buffalo.
How do the 2 compare in regards to toughness, temper and difficulty to put down?
Due to costs I doubt I'll ever get to hunt Cape buffalo (it's on my bucket list) but I live in Oz and will be hunting water buffalo, so it would be nice to see how the 2 compare.

Thanks guys,

Russ.

Jeez badboy you are well named you've just opened up not one but two hotly debated topics, this will be interesting, again.

Good day.
I've shot several of both. I know I will anger some here but I feel the cape is over rated as to the danger factor. Yes, people have been tragically killed and injured but I would guess the ratio is a very low percentage. Folks get killed driving, too, but we still do it. Every cape I've seen runs off if they see me or wind me first. The trophy is indeed impressive.

The water buffalo is a bit different. The horns are less impressive, sans boss, but since they have not been hunted as often or as long and since they are not preyed upon by lions they seem more fearless. The water buff I've encountered seem to stand their ground, even walking up to the hunter. I'm sure this is out of curiosity, but it makes for an exciting hunt to look a buff in the eyes and aim and shoot rather than look at the quarry as it is running away.

On my first trip to Australia, some of my friends said quips such as, "Don't shoot the Chinaman off the cart he is pulling." I would rate them equally with both + and - equalling out even. One factor Australia has is it is a western country, good economy, good medical care, and safe to travel. Down side is they are very unfriendly when it comes to firearms. Africa, on the other hand, is third world, but the game you will see will stay in your memory for ever as will the traditional safari feeling of just being there.

If you're in Oz, you can kill dozens of water buffalo for the cost of one cape. My recommendation: do both! And, with a double rifle.
Cal

PS. Softs. Solids on elephant or hippo (so few rhino they are not worth mentioning. I've used solids and the pass right through. Which brings up an old argument--which is better--two holes or for the bullet to stay in the animal and expend all of its energy within the critter. Many have said if a bullet passes through the animal, much of its energy is wasted. I don't have enough experience to offer an opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
Jeez badboy you are well named you've just opened up not one but two hotly debated topics, this will be interesting, again.

I don't want to start an argument!!! I'm not a troll!!
Seriously, I'm asking coz I legit want to know and there are heaps of people with a wealth of knowledge on here to share. Knowledge that I don't have.
I sincerely hope this doesn't stir any pots and if so I'll apologise and delete the question.

Cheers,

Russ.

I've deleted the second question.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Good day.
I've shot several of both. I know I will anger some here but I feel the cape is over rated as to the danger factor. Yes, people have been tragically killed and injured but I would guess the ratio is a very low percentage. Folks get killed driving, too, but we still do it. Every cape I've seen runs off if they see me or wind me first. The trophy is indeed impressive.

The water buffalo is a bit different. The horns are less impressive, sans boss, but since they have not been hunted as often or as long and since they are not preyed upon by lions they seem more fearless. The water buff I've encountered seem to stand their ground, even walking up to the hunter. I'm sure this is out of curiosity, but it makes for an exciting hunt to look a buff in the eyes and aim and shoot rather than look at the quarry as it is running away.

On my first trip to Australia, some of my friends said quips such as, "Don't shoot the Chinaman off the cart he is pulling." I would rate them equally with both + and - equalling out even. One factor Australia has is it is a western country, good economy, good medical care, and safe to travel. Down side is they are very unfriendly when it comes to firearms. Africa, on the other hand, is third world, but the game you will see will stay in your memory for ever as will the traditional safari feeling of just being there.

If you're in Oz, you can kill dozens of water buffalo for the cost of one cape. My recommendation: do both! And, with a double rifle.
Cal

PS. Softs. Solids on elephant or hippo (so few rhino they are not worth mentioning. I've used solids and the pass right through. Which brings up an old argument--which is better--two holes or for the bullet to stay in the animal and expend all of its energy within the critter. Many have said if a bullet passes through the animal, much of its energy is wasted. I don't have enough experience to offer an opinion.

Thanks mate

quote:

Originally posted by badboymelvin:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
Jeez badboy you are well named you've just opened up not one but two hotly debated topics, this will be interesting, again.

I don't want to start an argument!!! I'm not a troll!!
Seriously, I'm asking coz I legit want to know and there are heaps of people with a wealth of knowledge on here to share. Knowledge that I don't have.
I sincerely hope this doesn't stir any pots and if so I'll apologise and delete the question.

Cheers,

Russ.

Badboy my post was tongue in the cheek stuff and not accusing you of anything wrong with both your questions and no need to apologise. I never shirk away from a good debate, both your questions have been separate topics before, as are plenty of other topics repeated on the forum, but each time do seem to garner different responses. The two questions you have asked seem to invoke vigorous debate at times, some of it when discussing the two buffalo types not so much a direct comparison of the beasts as beasts but more a romantic traditional safari slant on the African buffalo against a domestic agricultural slant on the Asian or Aussie buffalo. The bullet type discussion also comes up with some very opposing views, some posters having bad experiences with a certain type of bullet while others having no trouble and happy to stick with what they know even though it maybe the old style bullet and not the latest x generation which others have found to be the only one for them.

Let the debate begin, there is always something new to learn

I took Jack Carter from BEAR CLAW BULLETS on a buff hunt in the territory, and he has shot both African and aussie buff, he said our buffalo are bigger and just as hard if not harder to drop.....he was using a 458 with 400 gn and 500 gn softs, I was using a 375 and 270
Daniel

A buffalo is a buffalo !

I have hunted both , but Water buffalos only in Malaysia . The areas and the hunting are very different , a reason because it is very difficult to compare both in regards of toughness , temper and difficulty to put down . The hunting of a cape buffalo is also different in open areas or in heavy cover .

Buffalo hunting is buffalo hunting . For all species and in all countries you need enough gun and cartridge , a guide , trackers , money... The rest is depending of the laws and manners of each country .

I've taken several of each.

Just my experience, but the asian buff I've shot in Australia and Argentina were just not very wary - they were not hard to stalk and get close enough to make a pretty easy shot.

Three were killed with .375s - one shot on one of them, another was spined and shot a second time, and the third required numerous shots despite the first one being relatively well-placed. The fourth was killed with a .45 caliber sabot out of a T\C Pro Hunter muzzleloader - one shot was all that one took.

I was present while two more asian buff were shot in Argentina by other hunters using .375s. Both were rodeos, requiring numerous shots. One was gut shot with the initial shot and took something like 11 or 12 shots before that one was finished.

I have no authoritative source for this, but the asians seem bigger in the body to me than most cape buff I've shot or been a witness to being shot.

I suspect that like just about any animal, if hit right with a proper bullet, they die pretty easy. But if you don't hit them well, they get the adrenaline up, and you're going to be reloading several times to bring them down unless you can hit the CNS, which you won't, because they'll be running away from you.

Several of the cape buffalo have been killed with the first shot, several have required two or three - either a shot in the ass as they're running away and/or a finisher. I have killed all my cape buff with a .375 and a .450/400. I have seen cape buffalo killed by others that required a number of follow up shots, but not like what I witnessed in Argentina when guys I was hunting with were putting double digit rounds into the asians.

I always use premium controlled expansion softs for my first shot and solids for backing shots with the exception of the muzzleloader - I shot a solid from that. I have used a number of different brands - I'm a bullet whore - but I like the Barnes and Swift A-Frames the best. I've also used Partitions and the Hornaday DGX to kill buffalo. I've used Sledgehammer solids, the Nosler solid, and Hornaday DGS's for my solids. I'm headed to Tanzania in September and will be trying the North Fork CPS for my backing shots for the first time.

Personally I've never felt threatened by an asian buffalo - they've never been aggressive toward me when being stalked or hunted - if they bust you they just move off - and when wounded, the ones I've seen were pretty much just interested in getting away.

Cape buffalo are a little different. In my experience, they stand their ground occasionally and stare you down when you're hunting them. Often they just move off like the asians I've seen, but I've never had an asian stand his ground and I have had that experience with cape buffalo.

Once they've been shot, in my experience the cape buffalo also runs away (and hopefully keels over and dies). In two cases I've been present on cape buffalo kills where a wounded buff turned and was acting aggressively toward us (one was mine and one was my son's). In neither case did we get charged (though the one my son shot in Zambia was kind of stumbling toward us). We were able to shoot both and put them down despite them looking like they wanted to come for us.

I may be foolish, but I have never felt the same threat from the asian buffalo that I have on a few occasions from cape buffalo.

Part of that is also due to the conditions under which I've hunted both. Some of my cape buffalo have been taken in relatively thick jess or mopane forest or in areas with pretty tall grass. In Argentina the asians I've hunted were more or less in open, short grass areas. In Australia it was forested but still pretty open. In other words, I'm more nervous following up cape buffalo in part because I can't see where that bastard is lying in wait. The asians pretty much had nowhere to hide - and didn't seem too interested in hiding anyway.

I agree the danger factor in buffalo hunting is exaggerated. Can these animals seriously injure or kill you? Absolutely. You owe them respect, and mistakes when pursuing them can have more dire consequences than mistakes made when pursuing plainsgame. But if you respect them and you don't make mistakes - and, for those of us who aren't professionals, if you have an experienced professional hunter - it's not as dangerous as writers and television programs make it out to be.

Just one guy's experiences.

In addition to the allegation that water buffalos are only domestic agricultural farm animals , after 4000 or more years of domestication of a species where are the limits between a feral and a wild animal ?

In the same area in Malaysia you find in the swamps water buffalos ( feral or wild ? ) and in the mountains gaurs ( wild , never domesticated ! ). Also you have a lot of elefants . Next question , are "wild" asiatic elefants feral or wild animals ?

All the buffalos that i saw in the jungle of Malaysia were big and agressive animals ! Feral or wild , that was not my problem !

asians have been bred for size and weight and docility over the millenia. Fat Cape Buffalo don't often make it to breeding dominance in the wild. Spend a little $$$ in Africa, shoot a female with a day old calf, and do the paperwork to get it back to the US. The Cape calf will be fighting the attendants on the flight home, the Asian will make your children a fun plaything.

Like lions, 350-400lbs in the wild, fatties in zoos 500+.

all bovines can be cantankerous - period. ask anyone who has worked around cattle. it is my understanding that asiatic (both the type that are prevalent in Australia and those in argentina) can be considerably larger than cape buffalo, and not from being fat as idaho sharpshooter suggested -- they're just bigger in stature. obviously those animals that are constantly chased as food would be more weary than those that really have no natural enemies but man.

I have killed hundreds of water buffalos in culling operations ,guided several hundreds more and hunted a bit with everything bow pistol and rifles ,they are unpredictable criters usually with a big bore everything goes rigth but for example with SGraves375 from this forum we have had an explosive charge that we stopped at our feet .I have been in several Cape Buffalo hunts and they are smaller but can be more agressive -i didnt see it because i havent enough experience-i believe with a good bullet any of them can be easily killed .Soft controlled expansion POINT MINIMUN 375HYH is what i recommend .The advantage of water buffalo is that you hunt them for 5000us all inclusive even the trophy fee .

The Asiatic are bigger and harder to put down. The Capes are smaller, spookier and seem to be worse tempered.

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:
The Asiatic are bigger and harder to put down. The Capes are smaller, spookier and seem to be worse tempered.

That is concise.
True at first light and most other times too.
Truly feral water buffalo have been known to charge the hunter too.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
asians have been bred for size and weight and docility over the millenia. Fat Cape Buffalo don't often make it to breeding dominance in the wild. Spend a little $$$ in Africa, shoot a female with a day old calf, and do the paperwork to get it back to the US. The Cape calf will be fighting the attendants on the flight home, the Asian will make your children a fun plaything.

Like lions, 350-400lbs in the wild, fatties in zoos 500+.

Aw shucks Idaho, what about this little fellow, he is all set to trot along behind you back home

Is it only cape buffalo that wear ear rings?

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Is it only cape buffalo that wear ear rings?

only the cool ones

Or the gay ones.

On Guam water buffalo were kept as pets by some. They called them carabou and pronounce it so the last syllable rhymes with cow. I saw the guy in the pictures nearly every morning on my way to work walking his carabou along Maring Corps Drive with his dogs riding on it. There was another guy named Big John who lived in Umatac and had three of them, one of the cows would go swimming with him in Umatac Bay.

and this has what to do with wild water buffalo?

That would be what you do with Asian buffalo raised in captivity from birth.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
That would be what you do with Asian buffalo raised in captivity from birth.

exactly

quote:

Originally posted by maxenergy:
and this has what to do with wild water buffalo?

Maybe when you started this thread you should have been specific about the requirement for wild water buffalo.... Wait a minute... You didn't start this thread... Lighten up Francis!

Cal,

not to digress too much, but how many rounds did it take you to harvest your last Cape Buffalo? Ten or twelve, was it?

Asian/Water Buffalo, at best a couple thousand years of domesticating them bred all of the universal traits we admire/fear in Cape Buffalo out of the Asian. I saw hundreds of them in Vietnam, they were generally pulling carts or plows, often by pre-pubescent young boys. We recc'ed villages where females were being milked by the women.

You would probably be in more danger hunting American Bison in Yellowstone.

Every one here who has hunted Africa can tell you a couple stories about PH being gored, stomped, killed by Cape. Happens every year it seems.

It it makes somebody feel even a vague sense of danger hunting the Asian, they have most likely been told stories by the PH Company to make the outlandish prices charged customers seem more worthwhile.

Let it go guys, you're more likely to be harmed when you get home and your wife finds out you shot one of those harmless creatures she saw on a NatGeo documentary.

Rich

Rich

You are loosing this one.

On average 20 people a year are killed in the US by cattle--most of then deliberate attacks-

I seriously doubt that Cape buffalo kill 20 people annually in all of Africa. If you think they do--produce the data.

Yes Rich you are not recognising the reality of the bovine species. What could be more tamer than a herd of Jersey cows making their way into the milking shed to be milked. They would step past a baby on the ground without harm or a toddler who walked up to them, a great big wet lick would be all that anyone would experience from them. Now try that with some Herefords or Brahman cattle that have wintered over for several months, yes they have been domesticated for years but can be extremely unpredictable and dangerous when coming into contact with them. Why do countries such as NZ breed and make great use of cattle dogs (and horses) for handling our beef cattle breds on our large stations. I have been brought up on a large cattle farm and know full well the dangers of the so called 'domestic' cattle. If you think only the African buffalo can be dangerous you are sadly mistaken.

I have never shot cape buffalo but have shot 60 odd Northern Territory buffalo. I've had 3 serious charges that were only stopped with a shot to the brain at very close range.All had been wounded one by myself the others by hunting mates. We had a vechicle attacked by a lone bull who put his horn threw the drivers door and into the seat under the drivers bum just because we got too close. I have been hunted and charged by a wounded scrub bull in 6' speer grass. My first shot from 10' raked down the side of his head and opened up his neck which turned him onto my mate and I put another shot into his chest as he went past, fired from the hip with the barrel only 12" from his side which killed it. I feel any large beast can be dangerous to us frail humans.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:

Every one here who has hunted Africa can tell you a couple stories about PH being gored, stomped, killed by Cape. Happens every year it seems.


Rich

okay, but of the many who have hunted cape buffalo, how many have hunted water buffalo? have you hunted water buffalo in australia, or even argentina (different breed of water buff, but also larger on average than the cape)?

like i said, anyone who has worked with/around cattle will tell you that even domesticated ones cannot be trusted

It would seem so that i am the only who hunted water buffalos in the original area of distribution !

Russ

go up to Darwin and kill 50 with Barry Seabrook

that will cost you 8 grand and tune up, your gun, you, and your offhand shooting.

by Friday you will have killed enough big body buffalo to know where and how to hit em for effect

then save up 18,000 usd and go to Africa to have a ph tell you, what to shoot, where to shoot, when to shoot, to not shoot, now shoot -- [THEN HOLD UP -2- LITTLE STICKS FOR YOU TO SHOOT OFF FROM ,,LIKE GRAMA NEEDS TO WALK] and maybe kill one old broken up bull.

you will love both hunts but if you do it in that order it will be hard for the ph to shoot it for you

or bullshit you on how your killing black death has made you in to the man you always wanted to be but knew you never had the guts to rise up and become.

good whisky, nice camp, food tasty, stories rich, and then that, it almost killed you cape buffalo!

well worth the money AT LEAST ONCE IN YOUR LIFE

in Africa after the hunt sipping scotch at the fire when you suffer a ''Freidan'' slip and mention that this is your 51 buffalo but only your 17th bull people might become silent and study the fire dancing ever so lively in that whisky glass

but that will paint you a smartass so think first

Its not about the gun, the bullet, or the species of buffalo.

It is about ego, pricing, market hype, and seeing a new part of the world, meeting new people, then experiencing other cultures.

From that point of view you get value either way.

One can kill a cape buffalo quite effectively with a 303 British,

and a Australian water buffalo with a 308.

That's what most of them have been shot with to date.

In time that will change to ak 47 for Africa and .223 for Australia but for now history tells us it is the larger calibers.

I have killed a handful of cape buffalo. It's fun.

I would love to go to the Darwin area and kill a bunch of water buff or scrub bulls, sounds like a real good time. Maybe when I get over there to fish the GBR for blacks and blues. That season is September-October I have been told. When is buff season?

JPK

JPK
I have only hunted once last year up north Darwin way

but its wet in may July and early Aug. so buffalo are spread out hard to kill in large groups.

by September October its dry and you can catch em bunched up near water first and second the guys can get you to all hunt able areas as the road system is passable


by November you are risking the rain starting again so that's the seasonal issue

if you were to go right now it would be good and you could expect a plate full of buffalo in a week

and by a plate full I mean

50 or 100 depending on what you order

quote:

Originally posted by stradling:
Russ

go up to Darwin and kill 50 with Barry Seabrook

that will cost you 8 grand and tune up, your gun, you, and your offhand shooting.

Sounds like fun to me!

Difference I: you do NOT have to provoke a Cape Buffalo.

Difference II: those oldtimers shooting Cape Buffalo with a 303, records indicate a clip or two full on average. Many of them did not live to old age.

You gentlemen just are not going to convince anybody that the two present the same danger factor.

Can one of you Aussies post some data about the number of hunters gored, crippled or killed by the Asian? I have yet to read about any here.
Or anywhere else...

Didn't a guy just get killed a month ago? Client got hit.

quote:

Difference I: you do NOT have to provoke a Cape Buffalo.

Actually you do, but he gets to decide what constitutes provocation. I actually got charged by a un-wounded buff in Mozambique last year. That was fun, but was it 100 buffalo fun?

Most buffalo of all types run like scared rabbits. That's the reality.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Difference I: you do NOT have to provoke a Cape Buffalo.

Difference II: those oldtimers shooting Cape Buffalo with a 303, records indicate a clip or two full on average. Many of them did not live to old age.

You gentlemen just are not going to convince anybody that the two present the same danger factor.

Can one of you Aussies post some data about the number of hunters gored, crippled or killed by the Asian? I have yet to read about any here.
Or anywhere else...

so, I can deduce that you have hunted water buffalo?