Just go with the "Ghostie", or one with certain charm that can only be infused by great tradition of arms making. English have it, while Continental and American ones....

.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:

A Peter Hofer of a Fanzoj may likely be the finest gun art there is, once the owner who commisioned it ( for a considerable sum of money) takes it home it never again attains that value on the second hand market.

That's probably also true with a high grade H&H or Purdey as well, as least within the first owner's lifetime.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
for me, no HUNTING bolt gun is worth 10s of thousands.. collectors items MIGHT be, but not for me.

double rifles COULD be worth that much, to someone else. .. but then, again, not to me.

I would rather have 1 $2500 rifle and 10 $750 rifle... but the 750 rifles I would probably build myself

jeffe

Having owned rifles by Rigby, H&H Holland's, WR, C&H, Tolley, A&N-CSL, Jeffrey, Purdey, Fraser, Greener,
Simson, and numerous others. I have a few blasphemous opinions of my own to add to yours, Jeffe:

1. Though the work may have all been done by hand and taken a LOT of time, typical functioning was/is every bit as "iffy", if not worse, than typical run-of-the-mine American factory production of the same era.

2. One of the disadvantages to hand fitting, whether well or poorly done, is that it often makes easy (drop-in) installation of "spares" pretty much a field impossibility in case of breakage. For a hunter's DG use, that is NOT an enhancement to true value.

3. Like so many other things in modern life, speculation, pure and simple, is the driving force behind pricing.

I love good double rifles, but then I love all good rifles. At today's prices I would never even consider owning another double other than something elegantly simple...such as a Merkel .470 or something along that line.

Best wishes,

AC

Mac, as usual I'm in complete agreement. The skill of a master machinist has to be seen to be believed. I know because, though I love to try almost every day, I NEVER will be! I've always said my dream rifle was one made about 1890 by some gent who started his apprenticship about 1840.

CNC machining to any tolerance not withstanding,
I'll always go for handmade in a fine gun. Growing up one of my 'wish list' guns was a 45 acp. When I got a paycheck via the army one of the first things I did was save up for a Colt Gold Cup. The machining was terrible, ROUGH mill marks in the slide, uneven cuts on the frame, gouges in the grip safety that were finished over, etc. You can buy a far better Kimber or Springfied today for less than I paid back then, but its still my favorite 45.

Today I am very fortunate enough to have a few Brits in the safe that are in the 10k+ range, and almost feel guilty when I look at the quality shining through 100 years of wear and tear and think of the skill and experience needed to make them. I could never afford more than one of them new, and in that sense they are an incredible bargin.

When you consider the replacement costs as denoted above, then add in the history, I think prices can be in line with what you are getting, despite a lot of 'blue sky' in some people's asking prices.

Any AR type passing thru Anchorage at mutually workable times are more than invited to the range to see what I mean, but be warned, it's an addiction and you will never look back!

Bob

quote:

Originally posted by Pegleg:
I suggest that if you ever get to South Dakota you stop into Dakota Arms and ask for the ten cent tour. They use to be happy to do that. Things might have changed since there has been a turnover of some key people. You will see some top quallity guns being built and a lot of machines used in the process. As a matter of fact I don't recall seeing any files.

While you were at Dakota, how many DOUBLE RIFLES did you see being fitted? Dakota has some quality control issues with their simple to built bolt rifles, and one single shot! They market a double rifle under the Dakota NAME, but it isn't made by Dakota, it is made in Italy, and the price starts a $24,000 US. There is a reason for that price, and that it is made in Italy. That reason is, nobody at Dakota has the skill to build a double rifle!

quote:

They make some pretty nice guns, and yes they are expensive. Maybe the files are used but they have people that can make a round ball out of a square chunk of steel with a CNC machine faster than you could go out and buy a file. Different kind of craftsman, but very skilled.

Dakota's rifles are nice to look at, but they are not what I would call real quality custom rifles. They are simply simi-custom factory rifles, and in my opinion, are over priced, for the quality of their rifles.

Yes CNCs can be progarmed to make a round ball out of a square block, but it can't be programed to fit, and regulate a double rifle, that my friend has been tried by every maker of double rifles in the world, and it is still done by hand, with a thin layer of smoke, and files. CNC machines are utilized by all the double rifle makers, but it is only used to do the basic shapeing, or IOW, to do the HOGG WORK historicly done by appies. This is one of the reasons quality is going down, CNC has replaced the APPIES, so no real skill is being trained into the field, and is a dying art! CNC can build a Mod 700 PF bolt rifle from scratch, with very little human touch, but you can see the quality that results, and it is over priced at $700 !

I'll be the first to admit, $100K for any rifle is out of the question for me, and a $10K Merkel will do anything the $100K Purdy will do, in practical terms. I agree also that the price of the top of the line is not justified, and the price is simply because someone will pay it! That doesn't mean a double rifle that cost three times what a good bolt rifle costs in not justified. the difference is in the time and skill involved in makeing it!

This is no different than the fact that a $5000 KIA car will take you to a fast food joint, just a well as a $150K Masarati. Nobody, in thier right mind, would think the amount of work going into building a KIA, comes anywhere near the work of fit and finish of a Masarati, simply because they will both take you down the street to the Whata Burger! The fact that the Masarati is not worth the price to me, doesn't mean the quality is not there, and I agree even if I had that kind of money, I don't want one! I'd rather have a Toyota Land Cruiser 4X4 at $20K than either example.

If you want to talk about the cost not being justified, then lets talk about $35K for a pick-up truck made in the USA, that will be in the junk yard in 10 yrs, and is worth 1/3 less the minute you sign the papers to buy it, before you put one mile on the odometer.

A name Double rifle will be worth more in ten yrs than it is the day you buy it!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Pegleg:
I suggest that if you ever get to South Dakota you stop into Dakota Arms and ask for the ten cent tour. They use to be happy to do that. Things might have changed since there has been a turnover of some key people. You will see some top quallity guns being built and a lot of machines used in the process. As a matter of fact I don't recall seeing any files.

While you were at Dakota, how many DOUBLE RIFLES did you see being fitted? Dakota has some quality control issues with their simple to built bolt rifles, and one single shot! They market a double rifle under the Dakota NAME, but it isn't made by Dakota, it is made in Italy, and the price starts a $24,000 US. There is a reason for that price, and that it is made in Italy. That reason is, nobody at Dakota has the skill to build a double rifle!

quote:

They make some pretty nice guns, and yes they are expensive. Maybe the files are used but they have people that can make a round ball out of a square chunk of steel with a CNC machine faster than you could go out and buy a file. Different kind of craftsman, but very skilled.

Dakota's rifles are nice to look at, but they are not what I would call real quality custom rifles. They are simply simi-custom factory rifles, and in my opinion, are over priced, for the quality of their rifles.

Yes CNCs can be progarmed to make a round ball out of a square block, but it can't be programed to fit, and regulate a double rifle, that my friend has been tried by every maker of double rifles in the world, and it is still done by hand, with a thin layer of smoke, and files. CNC machines are utilized by all the double rifle makers, but it is only used to do the basic shapeing, or IOW, to do the HOGG WORK historicly done by appies. This is one of the reasons quality is going down, CNC has replaced the APPIES, so no real skill is being trained into the field, and is a dying art! CNC can build a Mod 700 PF bolt rifle from scratch, with very little human touch, but you can see the quality that results, and it is over priced at $700 !

I'll be the first to admit, $100K for any rifle is out of the question for me, and a $10K Merkel will do anything the $100K Purdy will do, in practical terms. I agree also that the price of the top of the line is not justified, and the price is simply because someone will pay it! That doesn't mean a double rifle that cost three times what a good bolt rifle costs in not justified. the difference is in the time and skill involved in makeing it!

This is no different than the fact that a $5000 KIA car will take you to a fast food joint, just a well as a $150K Masarati. Nobody, in thier right mind, would think the amount of work going into building a KIA, comes anywhere near the work of fit and finish of a Masarati, simply because they will both take you down the street to the Whata Burger! The fact that the Masarati is not worth the price to me, doesn't mean the quality is not there, and I agree even if I had that kind of money, I don't want one! I'd rather have a Toyota Land Cruiser 4X4 at $20K than either example.

If you want to talk about the cost not being justified, then lets talk about $35K for a pick-up truck made in the USA, that will be in the junk yard in 10 yrs, and is worth 1/3 less the minute you sign the papers to buy it, before you put one mile on the odometer.

A name Double rifle will be worth more in ten yrs than it is the day you buy it!

I agree about 1/3 less the minute you sign the papers. That is why you buy it used in a couple years when the rich guy that bought it wants another new truck. Or in my case by it wrecked and fix it and get it for a heck of a lot less than off of a regular used car lot. After that sell it for a profit if I want to.
On the other hand the truck is not truly needed unless you used it for work purposes, and its still not really needed because you can still get a plain jane for a lot less.
If you do use it for work purposes you could get more use out of it than any rifle.

I stand corrected!

The biggest factor that makes a rifle worth thousands of dollars is that someone is willing to pay that amount.

If nobody ever makes and offer, it really isnt worth that.

quote:

Originally posted by hikerbum:
The biggest factor that makes a rifle worth thousands of dollars is that someone is willing to pay that amount.

Or in pig latin: Supplyus and Demandus eh!

Some posters here seem to resent people with money, hence they criticise what they cannot afford or refuse to buget for, I feel its the same kind that complain about the price of 416Rigby.A Sad, pathetic attitude indeed.
Calculate what some fellas spend on grog,gambling,smoking,overly big pickup trucks,Harley Davidsons etc and they would find that would be able to afford afine rifle at 10K or more if they made some sacrifices. Its what you see value in.
I am sure that people from much poorer countries, would even see these peoples lifestyles as over the top. Wealth is a relative thing.
Custom guns from big shops(H&H,Purdey, H&W/German) cost more cause of overheads and workers are pushed.
I can get a fully featured top end H&W magnum mauser actioned rifle built by an individual maker that is vastly superior in EVERY way and considerably cheaper than the above makers.
Some also assume that it is only for the rich . Well I see people going into hock to get the shiny new pickup for 45K. I dont feel I need that, 5k for a car is fine, plus 15K for a custom mauser, that leaves 25K still left over. Some people feel they need to own everything. Talk to some folk in abig game rifle club(show some interest) and may find yourself being invited to a shoot. YOu could have acouple million dollars worth of rifles to fondle and shoot, even if you dont have one yourself. If you do have one all the better.
I personally dont see a problem with spending 15k on acustom98, I dont need to go to Africa to enjoy it,that would be a bonus. Even if I did I be more than happy taking acouple of Warthog with a Magnum Mauser300H&H. Others would hunt with aRemington and spend the money on taking more game,each to his own. But my method for me makes me a rich man without being a multi millionare.SO ,IT IS JUST NOT FOR THE RICH$$ as some like to believe. But if you have the $$$ aswell to get anumber of customs and take various game thats great!, that is agood thing Enjoy what you have, or get off your Ass and do something to get what you want.
And it is probably wise not to measure things always in $$$ value, "Wasted" money is one thing, but alife lived without satisfaction or joy and money in the bank that could have changed that,is the true waste&tragedy.

Imagine yourself at your own funeral and ask yourself what it is that you regret not doing with your life. Then pinch yourself to see that your alive and get to doing those things pronto.God has little time for sad and sorry jackasses, that is why fools get what they deserve and deserve what they get. Man is responsible for his own grief or happiness.
Heres to Fine Guns and GOOD shoots

Now I know I am just about one of least knowledgable individuals in the world of doubles, but I just journeyed over to Westley Richards Website.

There is a build your own rifle section on the site. With engraving but basic I totaled up a double to around 8700 Sterling. Which I figure is aaround 1.8 dollars to the pound, add excise taxes and federal bloodsucking, and I see this at around $20,000 give or take for a NIB WR.

Is this about right guys and why wouldn't this be a viable option in a double?

It definately wasn't priced into the above but I like the WR full coverage engraving. There was a thread running a week or so ago about tacky ugly engraving. Check this out:



I like this, and usually I don't like animals, fish, and fowl in engraving.