I have an interesting situation.

Almost 2 years ago I ordered a rifle in .408 chey tac to be built by a small yet highly reputable canadian company, with the hope of being the first Australian to own one. Shortly after this, the company won a fairly major military contract, and even though my specs are almost identical to the mil spec rifles, they are still unable to give me a date for completion.
Am i being too patient, as i paid $10,000 Canadian up front in full.

any advice or suggestions?
thanks

quote:

Am i being too patient, as i paid $10,000 Canadian up front in full.

Yes. Far too patient.

Very hard question without some relevant facts

when you sent your payment, was a date given?

how much work has been accomplished?

in your opinion, has the work accomplished put them inline with the delivery date promised?

what do you want out of this? Either the rifle or your money, as, ultimately, you will get one or the other

have you lost faith, assuming they have greatly missed the date, and want out?

the rest is conversations to have with the maker, after you decide

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Very hard question without some relevant facts

when you sent your payment, was a date given?

was quoted to be 6-8 weeks.

quote:

how much work has been accomplished?

quoted as 80% about 18 months ago, now 60% 7 months ago

quote:

in your opinion, has the work accomplished put them inline with the delivery date promised?

no.

quote:

what do you want out of this? Either the rifle or your money, as, ultimately, you will get one or the other

preferably the rifle, as i've invested almost $3000 in dies, cases, a press large enough for this calibre and numerous companies time for projectiles.

quote:

have you lost faith, assuming they have greatly missed the date, and want out?

no i'd just like suggestions as to how i can possible speed things up. As i mentioend i want to be the first in the country to own one of these rifles, I gave an ultimatum for january, and was again promised that it would " be completed soon" and he has since thrown in a scope as "a sorry to stuff you around" but it still doesnt result in the rifle i have paid for.

the rest is conversations to have with the maker, after you decide

jeffe[/QUOTE]

I have his mobile, but i get smalltalk and another "been really busy with...... contract, will get to it soon though..."


any other thoughts?

I would say, directly
something along the lines of, you promised 6 to 8 weeks. It's been almost 100 weeks (or whatever the corrent number is) and I have been told it was close to finished 18 months ago.

What are we going to do to ensure that I receiver a perfectly funtioning rifle in the next 6 weeks, or a check for the ammount sent to you?

Be nice, be assertive, and keep the conversation on track. Your goal is to have a date, when you will either receive a perfect rifle or payment.

Hello greggus,
10,000.00 Canadian is I would guess about 7000.00 plus U.S. and it was paid ALL up front and still no rifle???? Military contract work probably does not involve careful checkering of a fine english walnut stock blank, rust blueing of the metal, close fitting of the inletting, etc. so there is no real reason for your rifle not to be completed as promised. Sounds like a "crock" to me and yes, would push very hard to get my money back and upon doing so and still in the market for a high grade rifle,call Holland/Holland and even though a couple thousand more for their entry level rifle, you would have it in a year or so I feel certain and can say without a doubt that the resale value of the Holland and Holland will be far greater than any Canadian built rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
I would say, directly
something along the lines of, you promised 6 to 8 weeks. It's been almost 100 weeks (or whatever the corrent number is) and I have been told it was close to finished 18 months ago.

What are we going to do to ensure that I receiver a perfectly funtioning rifle in the next 6 weeks, or a check for the ammount sent to you?

Be nice, be assertive, and keep the conversation on track. Your goal is to have a date, when you will either receive a perfect rifle or payment.

Thanks, I'll try a bit harder, i dont want to name names, or overly upset them, as i am so far away, it'd be pretty easy to just do a half assed job, make it not as accurate as it should be and be safe in the knowledge that i cant really return it, so i do feel kinda vulnerable, and what could one person on the other side of the country do against a growing comapny with at least one current military contract in progress.
it'd be like picking a fight with sam colt just as he started punching out the M16 family of rifles.
who can touch them now?

see my dielmma!

Try call them every other week or so asking about the progress and eventually they will be too ashaimed not progressing that they will get it done.

Give them one chance to make good then call an attorney. This is what attorneys are for. Across a country or even in a different country, so long as you are in an English speaking common law country all is not lost.

In my neck of the woods if they didn't make good ASAP, claims they would be at risk for are your basic contract stuff but also civil fraud, which brings treble damages and is a good motivator to get things done and done right. Criminal fraud, conversion, etc charges await as well.

JPK

Greggus,

I've been on the bad end of getting a rifle built with promises that were never kept.

My advice is to get an attorney to write a demand letter for you. You can request you money back, or a deadline for a finished product.

From one who's been there and been had, don't let this go any longer. As someone advised me a year ago. If you let this continue as is it will still be in the same condition 3 months from now.

quote:

10,000.00 Canadian is I would guess about 7000.00 plus U.S. and it was paid ALL up front and still no rifle????

That would actually be about $9000 USD right now.


Greggus,

I am in Winnipeg about every 6 weeks or so....want me to stop by and have a "chat" with them for you...

Seriously though, I am surprised by this. They are a very reputable outfit (and the only one in Canada with a military contract that I am aware of, hence my assumption as to which company).

You should definitely push them though. 2 years with that size of deposit is BS. Contact the Better Business Bureau (if they have one in Winnipeg?) or consider a small claims action (or just the threat of one). Probably just a letter from an attorney, as suggested above, would do. You just need to get higher on their priority list, and the quieter you are the less likely that will happen.

I don't think they'd risk sending you a crappy rifle. Their rep is based on quality, and while they can explain away poor customer service, a crappy product would do damage.

Cheers,
Canuck

quote:

Originally posted by Canuck:

Greggus,

I am in Winnipeg about every 6 weeks or so....want me to stop by and have a "chat" with them for you...

Canuck

Thanks!

that would put the wind up them.

Personally i'm not a fan of getting legal advice everytime i'm not happy with something, i dont think it helps customer relations much, there'd be less shopfronts, more legal firms

you guessed right as to whom, i still havent named them, but if you check their home page, i ordered what is in the first picture in 408, minus scope and muffler, but he's offered the scope free anyhow.


I'll keep trying!

I can't believe your patience in this situation. I'd demand my money plus interest back immediately.Heck for $7000 Us you can but a pretty decent .408 chey tec from EDM.I got into building my own guns because I have no interest in waiting enourmously long times for guns by gunsmiths who in reality are no more talented than I am. -Rob

quote:

Personally i'm not a fan of getting legal advice everytime i'm not happy with something, i dont think it helps customer relations much, there'd be less shopfronts, more legal firms

Fair enough; but then again $13,000 isn't chump change either.

Your vendor needs the proper motivation to make good on his commitment to you; if all else fails and you still want your rifle, there is legal recourse available. That's what the sharks are for...

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
I can't believe your patience in this situation. I'd demand my money plus interest back immediately.Heck for $7000 Us you can but a pretty decent .408 chey tec from EDM.I got into building my own guns because I have no interest in waiting enourmously long times for guns by gunsmiths who in reality are no more talented than I am. -Rob

I seriously contemplated one, looked into costs and permits, and the company are really keen to start business with Australia, but are currently being held back because USA is scared of the rest of the world having .408's. there is a ban on the export of all chey tac products, which is why about 8 months ago midway.com got a massive fine- for breaching some law which prohibits "military" export to outside nations.

may also explain why lost river, and chey tac themselves never returned emails..

oh when shooting and politics cross paths...

thus my limitation on where i can buy from.

Paying 100% upfront was the initial error.
Not getting a written indication/contract of delivery was the other.
Have made the same mistakes myself, (not with the same people). sometimes one can be too nice.
I would have little hesitation in employing a shark to nip at their heels.
The time for small talk is clearly over.
All communication should be in writing.
Insist on a clear delivery date by letter of demand.
The fact that you may be too soft may be why they seem to be treating you with contempt.

quote:

USA is scared of the rest of the world having .408's. there is a ban on the export of all chey tac products, which is why about 8 months ago midway.com got a massive fine- for breaching some law which prohibits "military" export to outside nations.

may also explain why lost river, and chey tac themselves never returned emails..

God forbid good weapons get into the hands of your allies!

The politics of security/defence really are something to behold.

Greggus...maybe I should try a soft approach for you. Go into the shop next time I am in Winnipeg, ogle a few rifles, make like I'd love to buy but am really concerned about delivery since an "Aussie friend of mine" has been waiting two years for a 6 to 8 week delivery, etc, etc.



Canuck

I assume you want a.408 Chey tac because you can't get .50BMG in OZ? The .408 Chey-Tac is just a .505 Gibbs necked down. I'd just get a CZ550 action a nice tactical Mcmillan stock and buy a barrel in .408 or .410 ( makes more sense actualy) from Pac-Nor and a reamer from Dave Kiff. Any decent Aussie gunsmith should be able to get it to work for you. Nothing magical here.-Rob

If that rifle was ordered from who I think it was (Ross), you had better start gettting your ducks in a row and be prepared to do some serious arm wringing to get either your money or your rifle back.

His track record with dealing with these sorts of things is abysmal at best. Spending a few bucks on having an attorney draft a letter for you is good advice. Just calling him is not going to get you anywhere. He has put you off for this long, and knows he can put you off another two years if things continue as they have.


Good luck.

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
I assume you want a.408 Chey tac because you can't get .50BMG in OZ? .-Rob

Suprisingly no! Although the stock standard 50bmg can be owned with a certain permit,we get by with the loophole that any modification to the case thus breaking the copyright and thus a "wildcat", such that shortening the neck by 1/1000' makes it legal!
however to me, the 50 is one of those "too much like work" things, and i am not really interested, comparing rounds, the 50 is still massive, and realistically, too big for any "game" outside of the northern tropics or camels in the desert. Add to that, the Sporting Shooters Association of Australia doesnt have any range big enough to legally use the 50. some range officers see big numbers and think the bullet will go forever, my mate had dramas with his 585, on a 1000m range! it hit the ground before 400!

but to keep a longer story short, i thought it would be easier if someone with experience in .408's and had an "of the shelf" rifle would be able to come up with the goods!

quote:

Originally posted by greggus:
or camels in the desert.

Any good for eating?

quote:

Originally posted by .366torque:

quote:

Originally posted by greggus:
or camels in the desert.

Any good for eating?

I've hear better than the arab ones!

apparently less salty, but no one knows why....

So who is the company?

quote:

Originally posted by bulldog563:
So who is the company?

Out of courtesy, and respect i said i wouldnt mention their name.

If they cant sort their shit by next week, i'll start advertising for them, but not the kind they'd like!

the latest, after calling the phone message bank for 3 days, an emails to almost everyone in the company:

"
Thanks for the email. Sorry I missed your call. We continue to be swamped
here with the "...." program and I know you have waited what must seem like
an eternity.

Our final hurdle on the 408's we are doing is completing the bottom metal
assembly for the magazine. It is a priority once things settle down a bit.

Once again please accept my sincere apologies. You have waited an inordinate
amount of time.

Best regards,"


Anyone else think this isnt quite good enough?
and any smiths out there know how long this procedure takes on a weapon system they are already producing?

NO!!!!!!!!! You should be given compensation, for 2 years of waiting!

I'd demand a completion date, and propose some sanctions/penalties should they exceed it.

If they can't supply that, or won't agree to it, I'd give them two options depending on how badly you want this rifle:
a) a significant discount from the price for not abiding by their originally agreed to delivery timeline, and for having your money in their possession for two years.
or,
b) a full refund, PLUS interest. The interest is particularly warranted in this case considering the sum of $$ you deposited.

Just my 2c CDN,
Canuck

Sorry situation. That would get me hot enough to want to go melt some Canadian permafrost in person. Can you think of something to go kill near Winnipeg? Not human, of course.

CZ stamps their 550 Magnum action as limited to about 55,000 psi with the .505 Gibbs case head size. That is not enough for full .408 Chey-Tac performance, but it would make a nice hunting rifle as Rob describes, with special bottom metal needed, not the CZ box.

Good luck, and good shooting.

my latest email to him:

"Thanks Ross,

But when will things settle?
I'd like, as i've stated, a completion date and the completed rifle on that date.
How does this sound, considering the initial quote was around 6-8 weeks to build, say we agree, 11 weeks from today (30 sep 06), being generous for you to complete My order, including the scope you so graciously volunteered, 400 projectiles, 100 cases, and you cover delivery including all export taxes and surcharges.

I have decided on these numbers and accounted for the following considerations:
ammount of shooting i would have done.
increases in cost of shipping since initial purchase
interest earned by yourself on my (more than) full payment for this order.

As far as i'm concerned, the money has been spent, and I am not interested in a refund, I want my rifle. If you were in my situation, granted you'd make yout own rifle, but say 2 years ago, if you had paid for a company to build a new pick up with your modifications and specs, they kept saying, too busy supplying parts to another major company, but they'll get back to ya, and offered a set of mags for waiting 2 years.
Would you accept that?

Let me know what you think.

Thanks."


I did some research a few months ago (about 18) and i recall that he posted on a "pick up" truck site talking about his new truck, hopefully this will jog his memory about how much he has used his truck in the last 18 months, and finally sort his stuff.

any thoughts, have i handled this badly?

That seems fair to me. 2 years is one hella long time to sit on that kind of dough. We'll see what the proprietor thinks, eh? Hopefully he still has a sense of fair customer relations, and that he isn't so busy with his military contract that he no longer cares about the little guy. That would be a poor reflection on his personal character as much as anything.

FYI, a looooong time ago he used to visit this website, under his own name. I don't know if he still does...but if so it would be under an alias, or lurking anonomously.

Best of luck greggus,
Canuck

quote:

Originally posted by Canuck:
FYI, a looooong time ago he used to visit this website, under his own name. I don't know if he still does...but if so it would be under an alias, or lurking anonomously.

Best of luck greggus,
Canuck

I know this, which is about 30% of the reason i'm posting on this forum.
also the reason, i'm personally trying not to mention his or the company name.
I recall he was also one of the first to comment on companies geting big contracts and forgetting where they came from and forgetting the little man.
oh the irony!

greggus

I would tell him he has 90 days to produce the paid for rifle and if it don't show up you are taking the next flight out and he can answer to you face to face and that its not going to be pleasant. If it came down to that, then I would do just what was stated. Imagine his surprise when you show up at his office. Whats he gonna say then?

Woody

quote:

Originally posted by Woodrow S:
greggus

I would tell him he has 90 days to produce the paid for rifle and if it don't show up you are taking the next flight out and he can answer to you face to face and that its not going to be pleasant. If it came down to that, then I would do just what was stated. Imagine his surprise when you show up at his office. Whats he gonna say then?

Woody

hopefully not "Go get bent!"

unfortunately i dont have $3000 to spend on airfairs, considering i'm also looking at about
$2000 import costs for the rifle, even if i do go and pick it up myself.

I'll see if i get a response, then call in the sharks.