RIP:

According to Hornady's Handbook of Cartridge Reloading, Seventh Edition, 7 powders will get you 2150 fps shooting their 500 softs or solids.

They show 76.3grs H335 to attain that speed. I use 78grs in my CZ for an even 2200 fps consistently with less than 10 fps ES. They recommend H335 for it's accuracy, consistency and "excellent resistance to extreme hot and cold conditions".

As to Aagaard's comment on the 458WM freebore, here is his quote from G&A's Big Book of CARTRIDGES, 1998, pg 77: Quote: "Frankly, I think that designing the .458 chamber with that long free-bore was a mistake, much more so than giving it a short case". end of quote.

JWP475, I killed two Cape Buffalo with that very load in 2005. Unfortunatley at that time I had not read that the Hornady bullets were no good. Fortunately, the buffalo hadn't either. My loads chronoed about 2130 to 2156 out of my CZ 550. Only thing I don't like about the gun is the magazine box is too long for the 458 Win. However, I am intrigued by the post mentioning seating the bullets out farther. Only problem I can see is where to crimp them.

quote:

Originally posted by Magnum Hunter1:
JWP475, I killed two Cape Buffalo with that very load in 2005. Unfortunatley at that time I had not read that the Hornady bullets were no good. Fortunately, the buffalo hadn't either. My loads chronoed about 2130 to 2156 out of my CZ 550. Only thing I don't like about the gun is the magazine box is too long for the 458 Win. However, I am intrigued by the post mentioning seating the bullets out farther. Only problem I can see is where to crimp them.

Read my post above: not a problem about where to crimp them if you use BARNES' TSX and/or BANDED SOLIDS. If you crimp into the bottom groove of the 500gr TSX it will give you a COL of about 3.75". The freebore allows that. If crimped into the second from base of the 500gr Banded Solid, your COL will be approximately 3.67"... longer than the Lott.

Some 450's work very well with H 4895, which is a temp insensitive powder. It burns very clean with 450's. Caveat: I never loaded 450's to max, or even close.

Some 450's and all 500's do best wit AA 2230, in my experience. With the 450's - again not loaded to max - it doesn't burn as clean as H 4895, but with some is more consistent. Take a look at the Hornaday manual, recomended to me by Woodleigh for Woodleigh 500gr and 480gr bullets, AA 2230 is the top choice.

Rip, I load the 450 NF flat nose solids and cup points for regulation in my rifle. That occurs at about 2200fps. A middlin' load of H 4895 or an even more mild load of AA 2230 get them there. My loads were pressure tested and came in well below max. If you want the load, I'll go double check before posting it. Let me know by posting here. (2200fps and NF flat points = plenty for eles and way more than enogh for buff.)

JPK

Is there risk of high pressure if long seated 458 rounds inadvertently end up in a rifle other than a CZ, have 458 WM throats always been the same length? I am loading the 450 TSX in a CZ WM at 3.6" but have considered rechambering to Lott if the 458XL's (xtra long) could KB someones rifle if mixed up.

JPK,
Please check your load data and post your best load for the North Fork 450-grainers,
with H4895 and AA2230.

I have a lifetime supply of North Fork .458/450-grainers: FP, CP, and the SP

I agree that is certainly the best bullet weight for the .458 Win Mag, or any other .458 with a 1:14" twist, like my 450 Dakota.

500-grain TSX bullets may be a tad long for that twist and I save those for my 1:12" .458/.338 Lapua.

Of course I do putz around with Barnes TSX bullets too, and have posted pics of the "long nose" .458 WinMag seating with those TSX's, as .458 Only is describing.
They fed well in my CZ.

86thecat,
Great handle.
All standard factory .458 WinMag rifles have had the long funnel throat.
That is the CIP standard for both the .458 Win Mag and the .458 Lott.
Must not be such a bad throat for a .458.
Custom rifle throating short/tight is an "issue" possibility with any cartridge reload.
The user of your "long nose" ammo hopefully has eyes and can see that it is nonstandard, and deal with it appropriately, if he ever gets his hands on it.

I think the 458 Win Mag is still a good cartridge for hunting large animals like elephants and buffaloes, but what I see is that it has been largely surpassed by many other cartridges. I have not read the book of the professional hunter Jose Pardal, but this gentleman in him to defend the already veteran Winchester cartridge. I prefer the 458 Lott ejejeje.

Oscar.

I've owned two 458WinMags in the past, a Zastava with 22" barrel and a CZ550 with 25", both chronographed at 2035-2040fps with Winchester's factory 510gr soft around 2002. A magnificent soft skinned game bullet by the way! At the same time, there was a report on an Australian forum of a load from Winchester's CXP-3 (or is it 4?) ammunition with 510gr soft hitting a teenage water buffalo and achieving 4" of penetration. Was the ammunition stored poorly in the tropics? Was it a squib load? No-one was sure, but it failed to do what it should have done and the time was early 2000s when there shoudl have been no question regarding the ammunition.
The 458WinMag for me is a brilliant soft skinned large animal cartridge, but for dangerous game under all conditions there have been just as many critics as supporters. I think its 2040fps is verging on the too slow for reliable effect (hence the criticisms), at 2130fps it's a safe but minimal proposition. If the 458WinMag was 'perfect' why did the 416Rem and 458Lott emerge?
I now use a 458AccRel (AR) and when I can use a starting load of H4895 that nets me 2230fps with 500gr Woodleigh at lower pressures and with no juggling of powders ... why would I look at going back to a 458WinMag? Same can be said for the 458Lott. I believe that the reason the 458WinMag became as popular as it has was pure and simple availability, it may never have been perfect, but being available across the World made it the perfect choice for both travelling hunters and professionals.
Cheers...
Con

If you think 500grs at 2130fps is marginal - on anything - you need to quit typing and go do some hunting, with 500grs at 2130fps.

Remember that Harlan and Thomson shot ~9,000 eles between them with loads that produced less. No complaints, no problems, no failures...

JPK

quote:

If you think 500grs at 2130fps is marginal - on anything - you need to quit typing and go do some hunting, with 500grs at 2130fps.

Remember that Harlan and Thomson shot ~9,000 eles between them with loads that produced less. No complaints, no problems, no failures...

JPK

I think that 2300 feet per second with those 500 grains provide you more security when it comes to go for the big five. That is why the 458 Win Mag has been a bit into oblivion.

A greeting,

Oscar.

Oscar, it is still most popular with those whose life depend on their rifles. And Even the Lott loads most PH's with Lotts shoot are only about equal to the stiffer 458wm loads.

But, despite one fellow gut shooting a buff and blaming the cartridge, the 458wm has a well, well, proven track record, and nothing more is needed. See again Harlan, Thomson, Duckworth and the many other Rhodesian/Zim Parks Rangers with thoasands of elephant under their belts.

JPK

Often the case, that a single negative episode, in the end brings a great cartridge. I have read that the 458 Win Mag plays the ballistics of the mythical 470 NE, so it should not be a bad because with the 470 cartridges have been recovered and will continue to claim many elephants, buffaloes etc ...

Oscar.

My plan is to develop loads with the 480gr Woodleighs with the 458 Win Mag cannelure on them. I have them on order now.

Using A2230 powder I will have no pressure problems in the heat and with the 480gr I'll have a little more case capacity and 20gr less to push. 2250fps plus should be no problem at all.

This would surpass the 450NE and 500/465 by 75-100fps with the 480gr bullets. These two rounds have never got a bad rap for buffalo or elephant.

Long live the 458 Win Mag!!

You have to count us as it is "your recipe" jejeje.

Oscar.

quote:

Originally posted by 86thecat:
Is there risk of high pressure if long seated 458 rounds inadvertently end up in a rifle other than a CZ, have 458 WM throats always been the same length? I am loading the 450 TSX in a CZ WM at 3.6" but have considered rechambering to Lott if the 458XL's (xtra long) could KB someones rifle if mixed up.

There was a debate going on at "the fire", several months past, over "freebore" on the 458WM and the Lott. Because I was in the process of writing a reload manual on the 458WM, and was comparing it to the 458 Lott, I needed to know these things. I contacted my gunsmith friend, who had built a 458 Lott, for a well known gun writer, who gave me a bunch of numbers over the phone, and then I contacted Barnes and Hornady. Barnes couldn't help because they didn't seem to know themselves, but
Hornady, who had standardized the Lott at SAAMI, gave very important info: The .458 Winchester Magnum chamber (including throating), it turns out, is about 1/2 inch longer overall than the Lott chamber (including throating). What does that mean?

Well, it means, among other things, that even seated as long as the magazine + bullet allows the 458WM STILL has more "freebore" than the Lott, assuming they both have SAAMI spec chambers. So, it's unlikely you could "blow up" a 458WM with any reasonable powder. The usual problem encountered is to actually attain max pressure. In my CZ 550, I've not come anywhere near max CUP, to date, and some loads have been slightly compressed with a COL that matches the Lott.

I'll post my 480gr loads and results as soon as I get the bullets which should be in about 2 months.

Jack

Personally- I've always liked the .458win mag because you can make a neat gun for it out of a $150 M98 mauser with 22 inch barrel, express sights and synthetic stock. Cheap, extremely effective and so light at 7.5lbs you can carry it all day! No recoil to speak about either! Most of the game I've shot with it ran off and died just like they do with a Lott. I cant tell any difference!
Assuming you have a reliable load delivering a 500gr bullet at a true 2150 ( BTW this cartridge and its best powders dont require real long barrels which is a plus), I would venture to say that I would not feel under gunned in any situation. In fact, I'd almost certainly shoot better because I wasnt beat to death from the weight of a 12 lb Lott( with only marginally better performance). Are there better stoppers, OH YES, a .600OK is light years better, but mine are just not as handy! The .458 win is simply not as sexy as a Lott and the bad reputation it got 50 years ago just wont go away unfortunately. Nevertheless, it can make a mighty fine hunting rifle IMHO.-Rob

I want a 458 Lott, but not for anything in particular, because I know that they stand with the 458 Win Mag, is an excellent game cartridge dangerous. As I said before, and although I did not I read (I am totally focused on saving for my Lott and I do not want to spend money in other vagaries), Mr. Jose Pardal, professional hunter, defended at all costs to the size in question.

A greeting,

Oscar.

P.D: Sorry, the book is called Cambaco.

BTT, oldie goldie.

At the time I posted about the throat of the .458 WIN and .458 Lott being the same, I was referring to the original CIP .458 Lott of last century.

Jack Lott's original .458 Lott did indeed have the same throat as a .458 WIN, minus the first 0.3" of the leade.
He was using the residual chamber of a .458 WIN with a Lott reamer that just extended the brass length in chamber to 2.8" without touching the throat.
Thereafter, the original CIP homologation for the .458 Lott showed a 2.8" case with the .458 WIN throat tacked onto the end of it, IN TOTO.

Since 2002, SAAMI homologated the .458 Lott and gave it the shorter throat.
CIP followed suit and revised to same short throat on their .458 Lott homologation after that.
CIP and SAAMI now agree on both the .458 WIN (long throat) and the .458 Lott (short throat).

OK, here it is:

That the .458 WIN's long throat is less desirable than the .458 Lott's short throat is the only time I have known Finn Aagaard to be wrong about anything.

May I suggest that, in the interests of furthering The Mission but not bifurcating the discussion, we read read arguments h/w but answer them on the 458 Winchester Magnum thread?

Has anyone here killed dangerous game with a .458 WM double rifle using factory ammunition? I have. Absolutely no problems.
However, I prefer the additional margin of safety provided by my .505 SRE wildcat bolt rifle.

sambarman338,

Precisely. As planned.

Looks like we caught a whopper.

xausa aka xmusmc or Bill,

Thanks for the reply. I am copying this to THE MISSION and replying to it there, where the Rodney Dangerfield of cartridges gets some respect.
Please go here, nearing the bottom of page 80 of the thread "458 winchester magnum":

http://forums.accuratereloadin...481099542#7481099542


Rip ...

Good work, RIP, nice pic xausa.

RIP, could you explain the Rodney Dangerfield reference? The only thing I can remember about him is his interest in resolving questions on 19th Century American poetry

Not to cut-in, but Rodney Dangerfield was a comedian famous for his monologs based on him not getting any respect. So if an item is Rodney Dangerfielded it means that it may be good but doesn't get the recognition or respect that it deserves.

there should be monologs on the internet of his, maybe RIP can get the link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCVR_ajL_Eo




Sam,
You are old enough to remember him, if you had been exposed to him. It must be he was not so popular in OZ.
American comedian. His schtick was: "I don't get get no respect." Double negative = positive.
He was getting the last laugh there!
King of the one-liners he was:
Like, "Take my wife, .... Please!"



The .458 WIN, the Rodneydangerfield of cartridges ... only since the Munitions-Industrial-Complex decided to smear it,
like the dirty-donkey Democrats are doing to Kavanaugh.
Oops, another American thing.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
King of the one-liners he was:
Like, "Take my wife, .... Please!"
Rip ...

That was copied from Henny Youngman who was given the moniker King of the One-Liner by Walter Winchell. Youngman's other famous one liner was: My wife told me for our anniversary she wanted to go someplace she'd never been. I told her to try the kitchen.


But the lines subsequent to no respect were Dangerfield's, such as the above one about the doctor slapping his mother. He was quite funny in an era that has gone down the drain where shock value with profanity and gore have even reached level of boredom.

Take Henny Youngman, ..... Please!

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Michael, JPK: That old Zim Parks ammo would have been disappointing indeed, if truly pushing a 465-grain bullet at 1800. That would be about 3400 foot pounds of ME -- ballistics achievable in a .45-70 and we all know what that means on the AR forums!
It would seem that most criticisms of the .458 Win Mag are no longer justifiable given current factory ammo performance, and of course, handloads and the newer bullets make the cartridge even more formidable.
I'll say right here that my only experience in Africa is on plains game with a 9,3X62. Closest I have come to dangerous game is trying to sneak a new rifle past my bride.

Bill, the 458win mag ammo of today is much better than it was when the cartridge was first on the market in the 1950s. Still it requires some knowledgeable hand loading to get the best even with todays much improved powders, as JPK states. He has a double rifle chambered for the 458 win mag cartridge, so has a lot of real experience with that cartridge.

That is today, however, but back in the early days of this cartridge it caused a lot of misfires, and hang fires because of the bullet compacting the powder ignition was questionable.

At that time, Winchester should have used the 375 H&H action in the mod 70 and made the 458 Winchester mag the same dimensions and powder charge as the Lott. If they had done that in the first place the 458 win mag would have worked fine. The storage of the ammo in the un-airconditioned shed was not the only reason for firing failures which happened even with new ammo straight from the factory. The 458 Win Mag should have been the LOTT to begin with.
Today the cartridge is OK but hand loading is still needed to get the best from it.

The above is the reason so many people are wary of this cartridge even today. That is simply human nature!

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