I was re-reading Ganyana's article on choosing a DGR in the November issue of Rifle magazine, and he mentions he's no fan of the .458, except with handloads. Once again, an experienced hunter has misgivings about this cartridge, although many others, including Finn Aagaard, were very happy to rely upon it.
It has now been many years since Winchester made the controversial lots of ammo where the ball powder was compressed into a cake that failed to ignite properly -- and decades since Jack Lott was tossed by an angry Cape buffalo shot with a .458 that led him to develop the Lott.
Yet there remains a persistent legacy of bias against the .458 Win Mag.
I wonder why.
How many current .458 factory loads fall significantly short of the vaunted, magical 500-grain-bullet-at-2100-fps threshhold that is considered the gold standard against which DGR performance is measured? That is, are there those who would insist that a good 500 at 2050 won't get the job done, but it will at 2100 or 2150?
Just sort of curious; if there still is a lot of ammo out there that gives only 1900 fps with a 500-grain bullet, then I can understand the concern. But if that stuff is mostly a thing of the past, why the bias?

458 Winnie is a good woodlands deer rifle! Not much different really than a hot loaded 45-70 or the 450 Marlin.

Hi Bill-Seasons Greetings!

In the last few minutes I have searched hi and low for my issue of Rifle, but have misplaced it somehow! The first article I read was Ganyana's and I must read it again to pick up on that before I can make any positive comments. I missed that part about the 458. Maybe I skimmed over too fast.

Of course I am a great 458 fan, all cartridges, but including the 2.5 inch Winchester, hence the moniker, michael458, which as been for a great many years now.

It is possible that it might have said, or maybe should have said "no fan of Factory 458 ammo". With that pointed out, then I might join with that thought myself. However, I am no fan of any factory ammo, and factory ammo is better today than it ever has been in history! But I am a handloader and with that I can be extremely versatile and can make the 458 Winchester come into it's own.

The last factory ammo that I tried was some very old Winchester Western Super X white box 500 gr Full Metal Case--according to the box. According to my records I shot 3 of these across the chronograph in June of 2003, Hi 2087 fps Low 2074 fps Average 2081 fps. All 3 rounds in 1 hole at 50 yds. Today I still have that box of ammo with 6 rds missing, somewhere along the line I ended up shooting 3 more. This is some pretty old stuff I had laying around, not sure when it was made, maybe in the 70's sometime, I am sure someone out there has a better idea than me.

In Feb of 2006 I was doing some pressure tests with one of my 458 Winchesters and needed some factory ammo as a baseline. I bought some Winchester 510 gr Factory soft points, Hi 2030 fps Low 1988 fps average 2014 fps pressure 41600 PSI.

This is the only factory ammo I have shot in my 458 Winchesters in over 20 years, so I may not be one to answer or reply to your question! One other point would be that I don't even know these days what factory ammo may be out there, but at one time Federal probably had some very good loads, but I will rely on others with more experience in that area.

For me I believe the 458 Winchester does in fact need to be handloaded to reach it's full potential and with the many wonderful bullets on hand these days, and other components I can't see it coming up short in any area. It is also my opinion that any critter shot with a 500 gr 458 at 2050 fps will not prove to be bullet proof!

As for "Old Bias" I guess we all have them, some more than others. I have mine. I also would like to learn more about who is doing some real tests with factory ammo, I won't use any, but still good to know!

I'm not sure of the reason for the bias, but I can tell you that everything I have ever tagged with a 400 grain Kodiak NorthFork or Barnes at 2350 has died right and proper. Granted, none of those things were large thick skinned African animals. The biggest thing to drop was a 650 pound Duroc boar that was getting unruly and needed dealt with. The round penetrated between the 2nd and 3rd rib and blew a basketball size hole in the opposite shoulder. After the death was complete, I questioned the hog in the interest of posterity and he completely agreed with the lethality of the 458 Win mag and that loading. Perhaps a Buffalo or Lion would respond differently to my post mortem questionnaire, but I doubt it.

Joe

Joe

Excellent!!!!!! Can you please send me a copy of the "Postmortem Questionnaire" that you use? I think it is a great idea and intend to use it in the future to add data to my files!! Heh Heh!

Michael

You got to have the power to EASILY accomplish the task.Then, you got to be able to handle or shoot the rifle.I think something like the 460 Weatherby or the 500 Nitro?? solves the first issue and a 375 H&H solves the other.Unfortunately these don't do both for the average person.The 458WM does but is slightly on the shootable side and the 458Lott does but is slightly on the power side.This is why,these are my chosen cartridges.

Two seasons ago, I chronographed 5 Winchester 458 510gr factory rounds from a box of recently manufactured ammunition.

All were > 2100 fps, 10 feet from the 24 inch barrel.

I'd say the problem is now solved.

I chrono'd Federal factory solids and softs. The softs are advertised at 2090fps, the solids at 1950fps (from their website.) Both produced ~2100fps in my rifle.

My handloads with 500gr Woodleigh solids produce 2145fps at the muzzle and pressure tested well below max.

Winchester advertises the 510gr soft at 2060fps and two loads with 500gr Noslers, one Partition and one mono solid at 2260fps.

Hornaday has their heavy magnum at something like 2240fps or so.

In the end handloading is the way to go, imo, but their are factory options that will do the job.

I've killed three buff and two elephants with 500gr Woodleigh solids at 2050fps. It is enough, but performance is remarkably improved at 2145fps.

Nay sayers of the 458wm just need to try it, with decent ammo.

Recall that Richard Harlan and Ron Thomson, former Rhodesian/Zimbabwean Parks Rangers, killed nearly 9,000 elephants between them with the 458wm, using yellow and red box Winchester factory ammo. They killed all manner of elephants from bulls to cows to youngster. Neither reports any problems with the ammo or the cartridge and both remain huge fans of the 458wm, according to their books.

Barry Duckworth also did alot of culling with the 458wm and remains a fan.

One guy gut shoots a buff and the cartridge aerns a bad rep? Sheez.

On the other hand, Ganyana reports that old Zim Parks ammo that was stored for a decade or so in unairconditioned warehouses had bullets pushing out and chrono'd only ~1800-1900fps with 465gr mono ASquare bullets.

Keep your ammo fresh I guess, always a good idea.

JPK

Michael, JPK: That old Zim Parks ammo would have been disappointing indeed, if truly pushing a 465-grain bullet at 1800. That would be about 3400 foot pounds of ME -- ballistics achievable in a .45-70 and we all know what that means on the AR forums!
It would seem that most criticisms of the .458 Win Mag are no longer justifiable given current factory ammo performance, and of course, handloads and the newer bullets make the cartridge even more formidable.
I'll say right here that my only experience in Africa is on plains game with a 9,3X62. Closest I have come to dangerous game is trying to sneak a new rifle past my bride.

I recently chronoed 7 of the newest and currently available factory 458 Win loads out of 3, 458 Win bolt rifles. These included the new Winchster Nosler Partition and Solid loads and the Hornady DGS loads. One rifle had a 22' inch barrel the other 2 have 24" barrels. None of the loads made 2,100 fps, Including the Hornady and Winchester loads advertised at over 2,200 fps.

Watch for an article in the next African Hunter magazine on these tests.

465H&H

458,500gr Woodleigh weldcore and the 500gr A-frame.[URL= ]bullet,big hammer test[/URL] Woodleigh weldcore was a soft sticky bullet compared to a hard,stiffer a-frame.They are both tough bullets.

Iv,e been reading john taylor,
He seems to think a .375 is plenty of power , and a 416 rigby is cleary (if I remember corectly) as much as anybody needs.
How can a properly loaded .458 win not be enough.
A lot of things can go wrong when you pull the trigger.
A poor hit the wrong load a weak primer , bad powder.
A 500 grin bullet at 2100 , is plenty of power. If it failed the problem was not the chambering. It was one of the other things I mentioned or about a million other posibilities.
One of my buddies had a bad experience with a .270 on a black tailed deer.
It took me about 5 minites to convince him the .270 is not a bad deer round.
There are few if any sure things in hunting.
I wouldn't want it any other way !
Shoot away, what did you shoot with those ?
...tj3006

Threads regarding the impotence of the .458 WinMag are always interesting. The .458 WinMag was designed to match the performance of the .450 Nitro Express and the .470 Nitro Express cartridges.

The Kynoch loadings for these two NE cartridges, 480 grain bullet @ 2150 fps and 500 grain bullet @ 2125 fps respectively, utilized 31” barrels to obtain the stated ballistics. If they only lost 25 fps for each inch of barrel, then the .450 NE would produce 2025 fps and the .470 would produce 2000 fps respectively with 26” barrel lengths.

So has anyone bothered to chronograph the .450 NE and the .470 NE cartridges in double barrel rifles with real world barrel lengths to determine their true performance levels?

not many current loads fall short of the 2100 fps 500 gr velocity now days. If you have a certain rifle in mind, I wouldn't let the win mag vs the lott make your decition. Of coarse, the lott is a little faster, but the winmag is a little handier as far as bolt throw. as far as ammo being avalible, the lott is more avalible in MN than the win mag. I have personally looked for the win mag everywhere to compare, but the lottt is prevaliant. If you can find either ammo, chooose the one you like better. they both should be killers.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Threads regarding the impotence of the .458 WinMag are always interesting. The .458 WinMag was designed to match the performance of the .450 Nitro Express and the .470 Nitro Express cartridges.

The Kynoch loadings for these two NE cartridges, 480 grain bullet @ 2150 fps and 500 grain bullet @ 2125 fps respectively, utilized 31” barrels to obtain the stated ballistics. If they only lost 25 fps for each inch of barrel, then the .450 NE would produce 2025 fps and the .470 would produce 2000 fps respectively with 26” barrel lengths.

So has anyone bothered to chronograph the .450 NE and the .470 NE cartridges in double barrel rifles with real world barrel lengths to determine their true performance levels?

Not to be a pita, but the 450NE 3 1/4" nominal performance was out of a 28" barrel, not a 31" barrel. I think the 450NE No2 also speced a 28" barrel and 2175fps with a 480gr bullet. There are plenty of 28" barreled 450NE's around.

I used to have a log of actual chrono results obtained by double rifle shooters. The results were as you would expect with the vintage rifles. 450NE's ran from 2100 to 2175fps - they all shoot a 480gr bullet. Vintage 470's often run 2025 to 2050, a few faster. Newer 470's seem to run 2100 to 2150, which matches more closely with the Federal load. Most NE's with noted exception of the 450's run about 100fps slower than nominal published velocities.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Thomas Jones:
Iv,e been reading john taylor,
He seems to think a .375 is plenty of power , and a 416 rigby is cleary (if I remember corectly) as much as anybody needs.
How can a properly loaded .458 win not be enough.
A lot of things can go wrong when you pull the trigger.
A poor hit the wrong load a weak primer , bad powder.
A 500 grin bullet at 2100 , is plenty of power. If it failed the problem was not the chambering. It was one of the other things I mentioned or about a million other posibilities.
One of my buddies had a bad experience with a .270 on a black tailed deer.
It took me about 5 minites to convince him the .270 is not a bad deer round.
There are few if any sure things in hunting.
I wouldn't want it any other way !
Shoot away, what did you shoot with those ?
...tj3006

Geez we read Taylor differently. His constant exception is elephants in the thick stuff, which is where you find most today. His favorite rifle was a 450NE Nos, 480grs at 2175fps. His next favorite was a 465H&H, which is the 3 1/4" 500NE case necked down.

He talks about a 375H&H being a great all rounder, and it is, but not for what you need a big bore for. He also talks about the 450/400, But when he was hunting it was most often with the 450 or 465. Better practice he is to do as he didi and not as he says, imo.

Of course, that is assuming you will be hunting more than a couple of elephants.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I recently chronoed 7 of the newest and currently available factory 458 Win loads out of 3, 458 Win bolt rifles. These included the new Winchster Nosler Partition and Solid loads and the Hornady DGS loads. One rifle had a 22' inch barrel the other 2 have 24" barrels. None of the loads made 2,100 fps, Including the Hornady and Winchester loads advertised at over 2,200 fps.

Watch for an article in the next African Hunter magazine on these tests.

465H&H

I've been amazed that most hunters/shooters/writers who are critical of the 458 WM, a)have not used one, b)have not handloaded one with the best components, c)have quoted others like themselves, d)have started out with bias, e)have not done their homework or d)have ignored the positive feedback of the vast majority of experienced hunters/writers, etc.

I've been working on a reloading manual on the 458 Win for North American hunting for just about a year. It's based on my experience with a CZ 550. I KNOW what it will do with 500gr slugs, or less. In my CZ, it is fully equal to a 458 Lott.

The late Finn Aagaard also wrote a report on the 458 WM in which Federal ammo in 500gr registered 2188 fps from his 23" semi-custom 458. It registered in the 2130s from two other factory chamberings. He pointed out, and I agree, that the excessively long throat of the 458s in factory offerings didn't allow maximum psi and "was a mistake". That's simply true, but can be overcome by: 1) a custom barrel with a short throat (as in the Lott)or 2)a CZ 550 with the true magnum-length action where bullets like the Barnes monolithics can be seated to match the Lott, or even exceed it. The CZ allows a max COL of up to 3.8 inches! And anyone with a crimp die can crimp into the appropriate groove of the "Barnes Banded" or TSX bullets.

458 Only,

I imagine that with the Barnes rings allowing for a very good crimp, bullet movement is no problem, even with a lot less than a calibre in the neck?

I have to agree that the nay sayers don't have experience. I think the same old horse puck gets repeated again and again.

465H&H isn't telling tales or passng on hearsay. If he didn't see 2100fps in the rifles he tried, he didn't see it. My rifle has 26 1/4" barrels and I only saw about 2100fps with the Federal loads. And I know 465H&H to be a very, very experienced fellow and straight shooter.

But why bother with the factory stuff when you can handload better ammo? BTW, I seat 450gr North Fork flat nose solids out a bit. Works well with them, but because it is a driving band bullet getting the case length right is critical to good looking crimps. But even the ugly crimps hold the bullet with a calibre in the case neck.

500 grains of Woodleigh solid at 2145fps MV = good elephant medicine. Same with 450 grains of North Fork flat nose solids at 2200fps. Nothing more needed.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
The Kynoch loadings for these two NE cartridges, 480 grain bullet @ 2150 fps and 500 grain bullet @ 2125 fps respectively, utilized 31” barrels to obtain the stated ballistics.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Not to be a pita, but the 450NE 3 1/4" nominal performance was out of a 28" barrel, not a 31" barrel. I think the 450NE No2 also speced a 28" barrel and 2175fps with a 480gr bullet. There are plenty of 28" barreled 450NE's around.

JPK

JPK my bad - you're correct. My fingers and eyes didn't match with my notes from the Kynoch website. The 31" barrel was for the .425 Westley Richards cartridge while the NE cartridges used 28" barrels.

After watching two of my PHs and how handy their light and short 458Win (Push feed Winchester and BSA) rifles are, I have decided to build up one with the following;
Light 23" Walther barrel.
Brno or FN four round action.
Recknagel Sights & Swivels.
Classic Brit style stock (No cheek piece & short fore end)Simiular to my Westley's stock.
Woodleigh 480grn soft & solid bullets for a MV of approx 2170fps.
It should turn out as an ideal Zambezi Valley DG bolt rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Thomas Jones:
Iv,e been reading john taylor,
He seems to think a .375 is plenty of power , and a 416 rigby is cleary (if I remember corectly) as much as anybody needs.
How can a properly loaded .458 win not be enough.
A lot of things can go wrong when you pull the trigger.
A poor hit the wrong load a weak primer , bad powder.
A 500 grin bullet at 2100 , is plenty of power. If it failed the problem was not the chambering. It was one of the other things I mentioned or about a million other posibilities.
One of my buddies had a bad experience with a .270 on a black tailed deer.
It took me about 5 minites to convince him the .270 is not a bad deer round.
There are few if any sure things in hunting.
I wouldn't want it any other way !
Shoot away, what did you shoot with those ?
...tj3006

Nothing.Just slugged the hell out of them with a sledgehammer to get an idea of how tough they are.I compare their toughness to bullets I tested on game or diferent media etc.. to get an idea on how they will perform.

Once again the fires of the desk jockeys rule,

A will make a statement, that none of the bashers of the 458 ever used it themselves, OOIEEEE now I am going too get shot

Now that I have your attention, a young friend of mine, is a ranger/PH at one of the reserves bordering Kruger, and he hunts +/- 45 buffalo a year,

Guess what he uses ??

Yip 458 Win Mag and Dzombo solids

Guy Rowe, PH for TGT has for many years used a double CZ 458, ugly gun , but highly effective

Enough Said

The 458 Win has a big brother now the 458 Lott.

I used to shoot moose and varmints with the .458 WinMag, when I was totally enamored of it in the mid 1980's. My first "big bore."

I had absolutely no trouble getting 2150 fps out of several makes of .458 WinMag with 24" barrels.

71 grains of IMR3031 with 500-grain Hornady bullets was my accuracy-with-power load, for moose and varmints.
There may be better loads than that, even faster and lower pressure with 500-grainers, but that was my favorite.

I still keep a slicked up Whitworth MarkX .458 WinMag, nice walnut and blue for nostalgia sake.


Regarding throating:

The CIP throats for the .458 WinMag and .458 Lott have been made identical.

They are both a long, wide-based funnel of leade-only throat, like the original .458WinMag.
No parallel-sided freebore at all, but the long and wide-based leade (tapering down to full engagement of rifling more than one inch from the case mouth) works fine, and does provide some freebore-effect for pressure relief, and does allow one to load the .458 WinMag to .458 Lott length.

Of course one can also load the .458 Lott to same length as .458 African Express 3", or whatever that one was called.

I have a pretty complete Finn Aagaard collection. Love Saint Finn, but do not agree that the .458 WinMag throat is a problem, nor do I think Saint Finn thought there was anything wrong with it.

It is the same throat as on the standardized .458 Lott.

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:

The late Finn Aagaard also wrote a report on the 458 WM ... He pointed out, and I agree, that the excessively long throat of the 458s in factory offerings didn't allow maximum psi and "was a mistake". That's simply true, but can be overcome by: 1) a custom barrel with a short throat (as in the Lott)or 2)a CZ 550 with the true magnum-length action where bullets like the Barnes monolithics can be seated to match the Lott, or even exceed it. The CZ allows a max COL of up to 3.8 inches! And anyone with a crimp die can crimp into the appropriate groove of the "Barnes Banded" or TSX bullets.

Rip,

If you ever take up the 458wm again, ditch the 3031. It is very temperature sensative and I chrono'd ~200fps differences between warm spring days here - call it 65*F - and colder winter days near freezing. There is that much difference and half again going the other way in, say, the Zambezi Valley on a warm day in October. Even here we see 100*F+.

Try AA2230. A very 458wm friendly powder.

I also don't see any problem with the long leade, it ain't a varmit rifle.

JPK

Thanks for the additional thoughts, guys.
JPK: I have some Hornady 500s loaded with 3031 to try in the CZ, but will try a pound of AA2230, as I keep hearing that it is a very fine choice for the .458 Win Mag.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Rip,

If you ever take up the 458wm again, ditch the 3031. It is very temperature sensative and I chrono'd ~200fps differences between warm spring days here - call it 65*F - and colder winter days near freezing. There is that much difference and half again going the other way in, say, the Zambezi Valley on a warm day in October. Even here we see 100*F+.

Try AA2230. A very 458wm friendly powder.

I also don't see any problem with the long leade, it ain't a varmit rifle.

JPK

JPK,
Have heard plenty of good things about the AA2230.
Alaska temperatures were coolish and consistent, why I never got into any problems and had moderate pressures and good velocities with IMR3031. I would still use it there.

I prefer the Hodgdon and Alliant powders now, and try to stay away from all the IMR stuff except for specialized-use, perfected old loads.

I use to get 400-grainers up to 2400 fps with IMR4198 but had the occasional pierced primer with the .458 WinMag.

There are better ways to skin that cat too.

Specifics for best load to deliver 24" .458 WinMag ballistics (3.34" COL versus 3.75" COL):

1. 500-grainer at 2150 fps ... long load to 2300 fps?
2. 450-grainer at 2300 fps ... long load to 2450 fps?
3. 400-grainer at 2400 fps ... long load to 2550 fps?
4. 350-grainer at 2550 fps ... long load to 2700 fps?

Anyone?
I need some tutoring on the new powders, being sadly out of date as I am.
Don't be shy. Specific powder and charge weight please.

We all know to start low and work up and reload at our own risk.

458 Only!

Read the article and I think you will change your opinion of me.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
458 Only,

I imagine that with the Barnes rings allowing for a very good crimp, bullet movement is no problem, even with a lot less than a calibre in the neck?

I have to agree that the nay sayers don't have experience. I think the same old horse puck gets repeated again and again.

465H&H isn't telling tales or passng on hearsay. If he didn't see 2100fps in the rifles he tried, he didn't see it. My rifle has 26 1/4" barrels and I only saw about 2100fps with the Federal loads. And I know 465H&H to be a very, very experienced fellow and straight shooter.

But why bother with the factory stuff when you can handload better ammo? BTW, I seat 450gr North Fork flat nose solids out a bit. Works well with them, but because it is a driving band bullet getting the case length right is critical to good looking crimps. But even the ugly crimps hold the bullet with a calibre in the case neck.

500 grains of Woodleigh solid at 2145fps MV = good elephant medicine. Same with 450 grains of North Fork flat nose solids at 2200fps. Nothing more needed.

JPK

Hi JPK;
I hope I didn't come across as bashing 465H&H...
I was confident he would accurately report his findings... But, my concern is that the complete story be told and not just the negatives that will be picked up by the nay sayers... AGAIN!

I have NO DOUBTS that what he wrote is true. But, again, I do not doubt the findings of Aagaard either. We all know, from experience, that different lots of factory ammo is rarely consistent. The point by Aagaard was that the overly long throat of the factory chamberings "was a mistake". His custom barrel had a "freebore" of "only" .125" with the Federal 500gr load chambered, and yet it showed no evidence of excess pressure.

My findings, based on research, is that rarely does 458 WM factory ammo attain anything near maximum CUP. My internal ballistics softwear program confirms that.

Also, I've easily attained 2286 fps from the 500gr Hornady Interloc using H4895, and that was not near max in my CZ, with that bullet seated out .25". The long Barnes monolithics can be easily seated to 3.75" (500gr TSX)when crimped in the bottom groove (same length as the 460 WBY)and 3.67" (500gr Banded)when crimped into the second from bottom groove.

The 350TSX, which I use for NA hunting of big game, is crimped into the bottom groove for a COL of 3.44" and MV of 2712 fps. No problems chambering or movement under recoil. It makes for a solid, no nonsense crimp. And shoots as flat as a 180gr 30-06 load.

To properly or accurately shoot a rifle offhand,your stance has to be such that it supports your skeleton.That means feet are just slightly spread,legs should not be bent, and your back straight and not leaning forward..If one opens his legs wide like most big bore shooters do in the vids or one shoots off shooting sticks that are not perfectly adjusted for his height,then his body is not supported and a good hold is impossible.It is difficult to use and maintain the right stance with a very powerfull rifle.This is why a 458wm is a good choice.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Thanks for the additional thoughts, guys.
JPK: I have some Hornady 500s loaded with 3031 to try in the CZ, but will try a pound of AA2230, as I keep hearing that it is a very fine choice for the .458 Win Mag.

Bill;

I've yet to try 2230 as it's difficult to find in my area, but H335 is great also (recommended by Hornady)and quite temp. insensitive. It's what I use for the 500s, though I gave H4895 a try also - but it's a coarse-grain stick powder whereas H335 is a ball powder, which allows at least 5 more grains without compression. Though, 2230 is also a ball powder, I believe.
TAC, if you can find it, also looks very good and is reported to be temp insensitive.

Accuracy issues with lighter bullets at higher velocities in the .458 WinMag, anyone?


Calling all .458 WinMag handloaders, please:

Specifics for best load to deliver 24" .458 WinMag ballistics (3.34" COL/3.4" box versus 3.75" COL/3.8" box):

1. 500-grainer at 2150 fps ... long load to 2300 fps?
2. 450-grainer at 2300 fps ... long load to 2450 fps?
3. 400-grainer at 2400 fps ... long load to 2550 fps?
4. 350-grainer at 2550 fps ... long load to 2700 fps?

Anyone?
I need some tutoring on the new powders, being sadly out of date as I am. Specific powder and charge weight please.

We all know to start low and work up and reload at our own risk.

Can't help ya Rip, seems IMR 4198 and IMR 3031 still work for me. I am about as behind as you are.

Joe

Joe,
Those were "cool" loads for me too.
I stopped at about 2350 fps with 400-grainers and about 2500 fps with 350-grainers, using IMR-4198. I could load more, but I liked for the primers to stay in the ejected cases.
I'll have to check my old reloading log from the 80's for the IMR-4198 charge, chrono, and accuracy results.

I vaguely recall the 500-grainers with 71 grains of IMR3031 were the most accurate ... and they would kill a moose with one shot, even if the Hornady soft "failed," the moose would still drop dead on the spot.

Shazam!
With new bullets and new powders, the .458 WinMag is the ultimate DGR for good now!
Also a dandy plains game rifle to 300 yards.
Standard milsurp Mauser action workable.
Light and handy 3.4" box, or
heavy and hard hitting as needed with a CZ 3.8" box.
Anything more is "Overkill."

Rip,

For both my rifles and the rifles I have been asked to load for, I begin with 70grs of IMR3031 and a 400 gr bullet and it seems I never have to do any more load development. So far that load has done great in several rifles. I also shoot some 500 gr hard cast pills with gas checks and 4198 seems to be the ticket there, but I am not done finding the perfect load in that weight yet. Sometimes I wonder if the 458 win mag wouldn't be far better off if you never loaded above a 450gr bullet. Seems everything flows along real well until you try to stuff a big long 500 grain torpedo in that case.

Joe

Guys, I got in on the group buy at the Castboolits site for the Lyman 462560 mold, and have great hopes for an accurate "plinker" using 5744 or Trail Boss in the .458.

Good luck Bill, I have a long time friend that claims 5744 is the best cast bullet powder ever made. I used to shoot a 422gr flatnose cast bullet over top 35.2gr of IMR4198. Most accurate load I have ever used.

Joe

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Accuracy issues with lighter bullets at higher velocities in the .458 WinMag, anyone?


Calling all .458 WinMag handloaders, please:

Specifics for best load to deliver 24" .458 WinMag ballistics (3.34" COL/3.4" box versus 3.75" COL/3.8" box):

1. 500-grainer at 2150 fps ... long load to 2300 fps?
2. 450-grainer at 2300 fps ... long load to 2450 fps?
3. 400-grainer at 2400 fps ... long load to 2550 fps?
4. 350-grainer at 2550 fps ... long load to 2700 fps?

Anyone?
I need some tutoring on the new powders, being sadly out of date as I am. Specific powder and charge weight please.

We all know to start low and work up and reload at our own risk.

RIP: Yes, those MVs on the right are quite possible in the CZ.

As to powders: Nothing wrong with RL-7 with jacketed or cast bullets up to 400grs, or a bit more. AA2015 is also one of the best for medium bullets. I get the best accuracy and excellent velocity with that powder behind a 465gr hardcast. I always use WLRM primers and whatever brass I have/or can find.

H4895, RL-15, IMR4320, TAC, AA2230 and H335: one of these will prove to be "best" for the 450s or 500s.

Accuracy? The 500s should shoot into 1" or less. The 450 Barnes-X into 3/4" from my rifle.
The 350 TSX into an inch or less.

The short, light bullets do tend to be less accurate because of the excessive freebore. However, seat them as long as possible, and the 300 or 350 TSX are longer to start with and easy to seat "long" because of their multiple grooves. No doubt, these two are the best for NA hunting and will give a relatively flat trajectory to boot. They also significantly lessen felt recoil.

I would recommend the Hornady manual, Seventh Edition and the BARNES Reloading Manual Number 4 as best for up-to-the-minute data on the 458WM.

RIP,

Always have used IMR3031 for 500 and 400 grainers. Rel7 works well for the 400/405 gr pills. Never loaded anything lighter than 400gr nor heavier than 500. Still say the 458 Winnie is a great deer rifle (deer would be including elk and moose).

Not an awesome buffalo rifle though.

74 grains of IMR 4895 gave me 2110 fPS with he 500 grain Horndays