Can someone explain the difference between these to cartridges? Is ammo for the Lott available or reload only? Expensive?

The Lott is based on a 375H&H case, same as the 458. The difference is the Lott is left at 2.8 inches whereas the 458 is cut down to 2.5 inches. Performance wise there is a 200+fps increase in velocity with same weight bullets. Hornady and Federal both load ammo for the Lott.

The .458 Lott is about 5/16" longer case than the .458 Winchester. It's loaded by (I believe) Hornady and prices are not terribly unreasonable.

It will generate roughly 150'/sec more velocity than the Winchester Magnum and many believe this is important.

IMO one should handload for either cartridge and if one does the cost is insignificant.....they are both the same.

Images courtesy of http://stevespages.com/page8d.htm

Hornady loads .458 Lott ammo. You can check some prices at http://www.midwayusa.com/ among other places.


Here's an article about the .458 Lott:

Buff Busters
Hornady and Ruger team up to introduce the potent .458 Lott.
by Kevin E. Steele
http://www.rifleshootermag.com/featured_rifles/buff_1124/

-Bob F.

You guys certainly don't screw around when a fellow has a question and I appreciate it

There is also a wealth of information on these two rounds if you use the find function and search out the subject. I believe that one or two articles on the round have also been scanned, and links provided, so you might want to find those and read up on the round.

This subject can often turn into a heated discussion, so beware

If you get a rifle chambered for the Lott, you can load it down to 458 Win Mag levels and you can shoot the 458's in it also.
The reverse is not true.

They forgot to mention that the headache is a bit more severe with the Lott!!

I agree with going to the Lott! But hornady makes a heavy 458 win mag that is darn close to lott levels!

msorenso, I chronographed some of the heavy mag loads alongside Hornady's Lott offerings recently, and the heavy mags did about 2150 fps average out of my CZ, while the Lott loadings did close to 2300 fps. So, while the heavy mags are certainly good, I found that in my testing they did about what a .458 win mag is supposed to do........

That ought to be good for a reaction. I don't know whether to start some popcorn or hide behind the couch.... I prefer the Lott myself.

Those that already own a 458 can take solace in the data in the Speer manual.They show over 2200 fps with their African Grand Slam bullet and Acc2230 powder.Those who prefer factory loads can get all the recoil they want from the Hornady heavy mag load.It is hard to understand that the45-70 is said to be able to take any game when handloades in a stromg action like the No.1 are used and the poor 458 at about400fps faster is not fast enough.

For the 458WM, there is still available some Speer Nitrex factory ammo with the AGS bullets which allow more powder without compression and they deliver 2120fps from a 24" bbl. Plenty of velocity with what is perhaps the optimal solid. The Hornady factory ammmo uses a proprietary powder which gives very close to Lott velocities in the 458.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Golden:
You guys certainly don't screw around when a fellow has a question and I appreciate it

They're kind of good at that around here!

First post... Boy are you going to make a name for yourself.

just curious.

quote:

Originally posted by jstltrs:
so why the lott?

I am sure 95% of the guides in Africa who guide for hippo, elephant and buff would disagree with most of the contents of this article.

That being said, Buy and hunt with what you enjoy. I know I do. Cheers.

Yeah, that article is trustworthy coming from the ammo manufacturer's web site.......but then again, if he was producing Lott ammo, he would be telling you how great a round it is.......

200 fps when loaded using the same bullet, pressure, barrel length and "tricks"

jeffe

In my simple way of thinking, personal experience is the best. Buy, borrow or make one each of these rifles and take them out and shoot them at hunting velocities with proper bullets. When you decide whether you are comfortable with one or the other you can sell one off or keep them both for fun.
The FPS gain will not matter to a dead animal and if you use either for the same type hunting (apples to apples) you will find tis to be the only way to know if you are shooting the rifle which best suits you.
Frank

My uninformed opinion is that the velocity difference is irrelevant on game, that controlled round feeding has no practical advantage over push feed, and that extractors on a good double rifle don't really slip off the case heads of belted cartridges.

That said, a dangerous game rifle is an expensive piece of equipment, and it doesn't cost that much more to satisfy a certain aesthetic sense.

Five hundred grains at 2150 or better (Lott having better "aesthetics than WM in that regard).

Along the same lines, if I had a choice as a left-hander, I'd go for CRF in a bolt rifle, and if I had the dough to buy a double rifle (I do not), I'd buy one that shot a rimmed cartridge. Just part of the whole functional aesthetic thing.

H. C.

Hmm, I always liked the lott, that being said, I am not in any hurry to muck up my 458 win to have one. The 458 win with modern loads is very effective on all critters, the lott does so with a little more oomph. To stir up some muck, look athe the 470 mbogo!

John

quote:

Originally posted by jstltrs:
so why the lott?

If you post that on an African forum you will
have to you have NO idea the crap the
45-70 can stir up here.

I like the Lott and enjoy it.Got it new but would not redo a nice old Winchester to get one.

i'm not selling bullets and don't even own one of these calibers so i really don't have a dog in this fight. i was just surfing and found that article and it piqued my interest. i have read other threads on this sight that alluded to the same type of theory explained in that article. i thought these guys were doing the best job of selling the 458 win but they're not offering it.
anybody know of any other information to look at on the subject?

what's up with the 45-70 anyway?

quote:

Originally posted by jstltrs:
what's up with the 45-70 anyway?

What's up with the .45-70?

It shines when Garret fails to isolate all variables but penetration. There is a lot more to how far a bullet will penetrate than just it's velocity and ya, common sense and real world testing will reveal differences but those two hardly ever come up with an accurate explanation of why. Search this forum if you're really interested in penetration.

.45-70's are plenty cool but give me the Lott anyday.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Bore Boar Hunter:
Hmm, I always liked the lott, that being said, I am not in any hurry to muck up my 458 win to have one. The 458 win with modern loads is very effective on all critters, the lott does so with a little more oomph. To stir up some muck, look athe the 470 mbogo!

John

agreed that the 470mbogo leaves both those 45's -- and all but the 460 weatherby--- in the dust... but that's a HUGE step

No offense, but this type of post and viewpoint always seem to bug me a bit, in that:

That one can get better performance out of a winmag than years past isn't the question... it's what one compares as NOMINAL loads is the question.

if one's 458 winmag can be jumped up to 2200+ just by "modern loads" (which include setting the bullet long in the case, modern powders, and high pressure)

what happens when you apply those same loading techniques to a case that is 15.8% larger in volume?


if the 45/70 is a good round, but the 458win is better, then, QPQ, the 458 lott is better still.

besides, as henry intimates, 2150 is a goodly speed... i think for impact speed, but that's my opinion,,,, and the lott, loaded to 2200 (2 2 0 0 ), is the answer to the 458 winmag question... as the factory loads the lott with all the same "problems" as the 458 winmag to get 2300....

jeffe

Yeah but velocity wasn't the issue. It's penetration. I'm still curious. I did as PWS suggested and found more stuff that suggests that the theory being suggested in the Garrett article is solid and that the best penetration is achieved at lower velocities. An advocate of the 460 Weatherby compared it to hitting the water. The faster you hit it, the shallower you penetrate. There were more charts and tables that had the penetration of the 45-70 and 458 comparing to and besting some of the most brutal rounds.
I have to say again, I really don't care that it's the 45-70 accomplishing this. It's the theory I'm most interested in and it seems to work. It inspires a project.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Big Bore Boar Hunter:
Hmm, I always liked the lott, that being said, I am not in any hurry to muck up my 458 win to have one. The 458 win with modern loads is very effective on all critters, the lott does so with a little more oomph. To stir up some muck, look athe the 470 mbogo!

John

agreed that the 470mbogo leaves both those 45's -- and all but the 460 weatherby--- in the dust... but that's a HUGE step

No offense, but this type of post and viewpoint always seem to bug me a bit, in that:

That one can get better performance out of a winmag than years past isn't the question... it's what one compares as NOMINAL loads is the question.

if one's 458 winmag can be jumped up to 2200+ just by "modern loads" (which include setting the bullet long in the case, modern powders, and high pressure)

what happens when you apply those same loading techniques to a case that is 15.8% larger in volume?


if the 45/70 is a good round, but the 458win is better, then, QPQ, the 458 lott is better still.

besides, as henry intimates, 2150 is a goodly speed... i think for impact speed, but that's my opinion,,,, and the lott, loaded to 2200 (2 2 0 0 ), is the answer to the 458 winmag question... as the factory loads the lott with all the same "problems" as the 458 winmag to get 2300....

jeffe

Only stands to reason, that bigger the case in big bores is usually more oomph! I mean look at the 30-338 & the 300 Weatherby ( ok not bigbores but cases I have reloaded and compared personally). The 30-338 is not a Weatherby. Some of the arguements are based on the Magnum factory loads, ok, however the larger casings aren't using the same powders. Temperature & elevation for pressure may not play a role as much as before , but they are still present! Be wary of your loads and the time of year you will be using them! It's simple if you want more velocity get a cartridge that produces the speed safely!!

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
That one can get better performance out of a winmag than years past isn't the question... it's what one compares as NOMINAL loads is the question.

if one's 458 winmag can be jumped up to 2200+ just by "modern loads" (which include setting the bullet long in the case, modern powders, and high pressure)
jeffe

The idea behind the statement wasn't that you should get lott velocities out of your 458 win, just that if you had a .458 win, you shouldn't feel compelled to throw it out to buy a Lott. The lott is definately more of a stopper than the win, but I would feel better with the 458 win over a 416 rem or a .375 H&H but not as good as I would feel with a 470 mbogo or a 460 weatherby or a 470 NE.

John

[qujstltrs
ote]jstltrs[/quote]

The Garrett test were in news print. There is plenty of evidence that higher velocity solid projectiles tear the news print and push a large clump in front of the bullet effectively enlarging "bore diameter" while effectively lowering "sectional density" of the bullet and paper plug combo. Lower velocity solid projectiles don't seem to have the umph to tear out the large plug of news print and so make a smaller hole in the news print, effectively maintaining their original diameter and sectional density. Traditional round nose solids tear more paper than flat meplat solid projectiles as well.

Flesh does not act like wet news print, though there is plenty of evidence that flat meplat solid bullets penetrate better, at the same velocity, as round nose solids.

This quote says it all:
"The problem is that a 45-70 has anemic velocity when using a 500 grain bullet (1550 fps), which in turn leads to abysmal penetration. The 458 Win Mag with its original loads of 500 grain bullets going 1700 to 1900 fps would not reach an elephant's brain on a frontal shot. There is no reason to expect superior performance by dropping the velocity another 300 fps"

Think about it, the problem with the 458 was marginal velocity, compacted powder and high pressure, if Garrett were correct the answer wouldn't be the Lott it would be loading the 458wm case down to the 45/70 velocities. But the Lott, with its additional capacity and velocity and lack of compressed powder rquirements to get there has proven itself for years and the 45/70 remains a good deer rifle for close range.

Think of it another way, a solid retains its shape throughout its travel in an animal. When it enters the animal at 45/70 velocities it penetrates x distance. When the same weight and shape solid penetrates an animal at 45/70 velocities plus three hundred or four hundred or five hundred feet per second faster, it still retains its original shape and penetrates y distance before it has slowed to 45/70 velocity, when it will then penetrate an additional x distance. 45/70 penetration equals x. 458wm or Lott or Wby pentratres its y distance plus the 45/70's x distance.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Big Bore Boar Hunter:


The idea behind the statement wasn't that you should get lott velocities out of your 458 win, just that if you had a .458 win, you shouldn't feel compelled to throw it out to buy a Lott. The lott is definately more of a stopper than the win, but I would feel better with the 458 win over a 416 rem or a .375 H&H but not as good as I would feel with a 470 mbogo or a 460 weatherby or a 470 NE.

John

Ok, I gotcha! However penetration does not always equate killing power! Bullet energy, with the giving bullet, does mean something! Give me a TSX over a Hornady anyday.

quote:

However penetration does not always equate killing power!

Perhaps penetration isn't everything unless your bullet is attempting to reach the brain of an elephant in which case, one could argue that penetration is everything. JMHO

now that's what i needed for some perspective.
thank you JPK.
so it sounds like what i need to do then is find tests that were conducted using ballistic gel or whatever to get a real comparison.

I've had no desire or interest in changing from the Win Mag to the Lott. IMHO it's inconsequential and I doubt an additional 150-200fps gives that much more on game if shots are well placed and quality bullets are used. For the better part of a century 500gr .458" bullets at 2150 fps were considered optimum and now suddenly 2300 fps is somehow optimum - how about 3000fps? That would have to be even better yet of course.

My standard-length 24" M77 .458 WM routinely gives me 2125fps over my chrono with RL-7 and Hornady 500gr RN InterBonds. I can still hear the powder rattling in the case when I shake the round and no pressure signs at all. I've not even tried to go further with my loads as this is "just right" and the factory standard for the round.

If I had a Lott I'd perhaps load it to 2150-2200 fps and leave it right there, but I dare say having an accurate, reliable and slick .458 WM with good ammo is not nearly the handicap it's made to sound like by some.

Like I tell people about my 45 Long Colt; I can always load it down to 45 acp power levels. All of these tales of 2200+fps 458wm loads are wonderful, and I believe you all. Somehow, winchester, remington, et al's factory ammunition with 500gr bullets runs out under 2000fps though. The Lott is worth 300fps in six or seven converted 458wm's I have chronographed in the past two years. Shoot them, rechamber them and shoot the Lott. Two-eighty to three-twenty more fps. It is physics, not any magic. Any new powders, etc that get more speed out of the 458 also goose the pressure levels up considerably; and can be depended upon to do the same thing from a Lott case.

Rich

I agree that a 458wm is no handicap with good reloads. 2125fps is enough with the 500 grain bullets, IMO. This is about what the 450NE turns with a 480 grain bullet (specs are actually 2150 out of a 28" barrel) and its been enough for more than a century.

I have killed two tuskless elephants with 458 loads that were around 2000fps with Woodleigh 500 grain solids. One killed with a side brainshot and one with a frontal brainshot. I want more than that next time, especially for bulls but it got the job done, even at this sedate velocity. At 2150 it would be great.

If I owned a Lott, I would run it at 2150 to 2200 at lower pressure.

JPK

Hey, maybe I can throw the "Lott is king" folk a bone. If I were a guide or PH, where my shots at game may be at less than optimum angle presenting more elephant than I would prefer, I might say the 458 win may not be enough. In reality the 458 win is still too popular for its shortcomings not be a constant drone. But luckily, I live in a land where if a 458 win is good, a howitzer would be better. Given the importation restrictions on 155mm hunting rifles, I guess the lott will have to do.

John