quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
just a correction, George - keep the faith

Yep, faith. The problem is fixable.

It appears the rear sight island is mounted with screws.

Make sure the screws are tight.

Pull the barreled action from the stock. Make sure the top of the sight island is parallel to the bottom of the receiver. Can do this on a milling machine table, or a surface plate, or a flat piece of heavy plate glass.

If not, clock the barrel to align the rear sight island. (Barrel vise work). This avoids having to re drill and tap the barrel. And having extra holes in the barrel.

Then see where the front ramp is located. If held on with the setscrew under the sight blade, easy job. Some guys use epoxy and maybe a little press fit.

If the front ramp is silver soldered, a little more work and a re blue is in order.

So you can see why I made the jig in the above photos: Makes things real easy.

I always test fire my rifle builds "in the white", before final finishing.

Sounds like the gun builder needs some tutoring.

I consider the step of sight alignment a very important step in rifle building.It could be that there are few who still use open sights compared to scopes and as a result, the skills are not there.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I consider the step of sight alignment a very important step in rifle building.It could be that there are few who still use open sights compared to scopes and as a result, the skills are not there.

Very true. I grew up shooting irons, way down in dirt poor Georgia. Scopes were rare. I saved up $$ for over a year to buy a K4 Weaver to put on my 22 Hornet.

Later, when employed, I started investing in more suitable rifles and optics. But learning to depend on iron sights as a youth taught me valuable lessons.

One of my older cousins was a pipe fitter/welder. He put in a summer's work with lots of overtime in Wyoming. When he returned, he had two Leupold and two Redfield scopes he purchased while out West. Man, was I impressed! A notch above my Weaver!

Installing iron sights as we want them on a DGR takes a little bit of skill and finesse to do it right. Not to mention the proper tools!

Some I have installed. All silver soldered.

Woodhunter,is there any advantage or disadvantage in using silver soldering compared to other methods?Does soldering create any tight spots in that area of the bore or put stress in the bore? I was told that soldering was abandoned ages ago for this reason.

Solder or screws, George -- some cheaper guns use a "glue" ...screws are actually more challenging to get right --

no, solder doesn't create tight spots, that's welding as A^2 used to do

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Solder or screws, George -- some cheaper guns use a "glue" ...screws are actually more challenging to get right --

no, solder doesn't create tight spots, that's welding as A^2 used to do

Jeff answered the question.

Solder, Holland & Holland and the other London makers have been soldering barrels and ribs for many, many years.

I use a high strength low temperature silver solder. Melts at around 500 degrees.

The double A shop? Yep. Strange practices. They TIG welded the barrel recoil lug on. I had a 510 in the shop to install a brake years ago. Pulled the barrel from the receiver and set it up between centers. 0.040" runout at the recoil lug area!!!!!!

The 510 below. Surprise, what you find hidden by the stock:





Magazine box welded to the receiver:



Swivel lug welded also:

Is there any chance the bore is not centered in the barrel?

quote:

Originally posted by LJS:
Is there any chance the bore is not centered in the barrel?

My gunsmith told me that he noticed some runoff when he was crowning the muzzle.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Solder or screws, George -- some cheaper guns use a "glue" ...screws are actually more challenging to get right --

no, solder doesn't create tight spots, that's welding as A^2 used to do

Here is exactly what he told me after I asked him if he soldered the sight on.I copied it from my email.

"Nope, its glued-on plus screwed on: never seen one come loose yet!
Fact is: we haven’t been soldering sights on for ages, as it has the tendency to leave tight spots in thst area of the bores, can cause a light warp or it can put stress into that part of the brl!"

I might add that my gunsmith is a graduate from the Colorado school of gunsmithing,has worked for a world renowned gunmaker,and has a extensive background in machining.

I won't engage in a 3rd and 4th party "dispute"

I should get it back in a couple of days.
I will try it out and see.
[URL= ]white paint[/URL]

I got it back and shot it at 100yds.

The three shot(fouler in the white) group was big but right on target.I was shooting Woodleigh 550's.Next time out I'll try 500gr A-Frames.

[URL= ]100yds open sights of the bench[/URL]

What did they change?

quote:

Originally posted by rodell:
What did they change?

They said nothing but I find that hard to believe.
They recommended I choose another rear sight-one with adjustable screws for elevation and windage-one with a stronger mounting system.I did not choose the present one.I had ordered the banded ones that require a drift to change windage-just like the ones that Ralf put on my customs.They did not fit so my smith ordered the ones you see.All my rifles have open sights and I never had one shooting 1 foot to the left at 100yds.

I may also try Barnes 500gr TSX to see how those group.
Unlike my original Ruger this rebuilt Ruger is truly a CRF.The bolt will not easily close on a round which was inserted or pushed into the chamber without it being picked-up from the magazine.As explained to me by my smith it is not a push feed/CRF but a CRF-like a Mauser.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I may also try Barnes 500gr TSX to see how those group.
Unlike my original Ruger this rebuilt Ruger is truly a CRF.The bolt will not easily close on a round which was inserted or pushed into the chamber without it being picked-up from the magazine.As explained to me by my smith it is not a push feed/CRF but a CRF-like a Mauser.

A Mauser will not close on a round dropped into the chamber unless someone converted it to do so.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I may also try Barnes 500gr TSX to see how those group.
Unlike my original Ruger this rebuilt Ruger is truly a CRF.The bolt will not easily close on a round which was inserted or pushed into the chamber without it being picked-up from the magazine.As explained to me by my smith it is not a push feed/CRF but a CRF-like a Mauser.

the 458 lott you shoot in texas will drop one in and feed it ... and every mauser or springflied, winchester or ruger i've made for myself does the same ... takes longer to polish out than to modify the extractor

From what I understood from my conversation with my smith is that there is a price to pay for opting for a push-feed/CRF than going full CRF.I am not sure exactly what but I think it was loss in strength in some area of function.

it's less than a thumbnail paring of an angle ground on the extractor face

It loses part of the "positive" lock up-doesn't allow the extractor to slip back over the case rim inside the receiver ring should there be a tight or stuck case.He says it's not something you want on a dangerous game rifle.Right now my rifle is set up just like a mauser 98 right from the factory.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
... Right now my rifle is set up just like a mauser 98 right from the factory.

That is an interesting trick to perform on a Ruger RSM.
It would require a new, uncut, Mauser extractor possessing the beveled tongue which makes Controlled Round Extraction possible.
Then the groove on the bolt where the extractor tongue rides would have to be precisely undercut to match that bevel.
Then, indeed, the Ruger RSM would perform like a true Mauser M98 and a CZ 550 Magnum:
Controlled Round Feed
Controlled Round Extraction
Controlled Round Ejection

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
... Right now my rifle is set up just like a mauser 98 right from the factory.

That is an interesting trick to perform on a Ruger RSM.
It would require a new, uncut, Mauser extractor possessing the beveled tongue which makes Controlled Round Extraction possible.
Then the groove on the bolt where the extractor tongue rides would have to be precisely undercut to match that bevel.
Then, indeed, the Ruger RSM would perform like a true Mauser M98 and a CZ 550 Magnum:
Controlled Round Feed
Controlled Round Extraction
Controlled Round Ejection

Rip ...

This Ruger will not close on a round not picked-up from the magazine unless I really force closing the bolt.I don't believe any of my other Lotts including the CZ's,Vektor,etc...will refuse the round like the Ruger...but I am going to have to check again to make sure.

I tried closing on a non directed round with three other Lotts-two Rugers and the Saterllee and they seem to be all the same.It could be this Ruger was a little difficult because it was freshly re-barreled and tight.

Well, whatever shootaway has is what shootaway has.

Just giving any of them the ability to push feed a single round into the chamber to top off a full magazine is a minor operation, as jeffeosso said.

That makes it CRF + PF: Controlled Round Feed plus Push Feed

It has minimal if any effect on extraction.
What makes it "Controlled Round Extraction" ... CREx ... is the undercut extractor tongue.
That is what makes the extractor grip the case more tightly as the bolt is withdrawn.
Just reshaping the front face of the extractor claw is not going to change that.
It is still good.
So a true Mauser can be CRF + PF + CREx
And if the action has an MF-ejector like the Mauser, it has it all:

CRF + PF
CREx
CREj

Rip ...

I feel bad for you Shootaway. I've had a few come back from gunsmiths with sights that were wrong !!
One the gunsmith drilled the screw holes way too deep. Almost destroyed the barrel. Another , the Smith put a Jeager U notch rear sight on after I had repeatedly specified a wide shallow V. Another put a flat express blade in and gave No thot to the height of it. . That rifle shot almost 3 feet low at 100 yards.
Iron sights are one reason I stopped having rifles built.
I had excellent performance from a a local smith as far as mounting sights . Everything actually.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
I feel bad for you Shootaway. I've had a few come back from gunsmiths with sights that were wrong !!
One the gunsmith drilled the screw holes way too deep. Almost destroyed the barrel. Another , the Smith put a Jeager U notch rear sight on after I had repeatedly specified a wide shallow V. Another put a flat express blade in and gave No thot to the height of it. . That rifle shot almost 3 feet low at 100 yards.
Iron sights are one reason I stopped having rifles built.
I had excellent performance from a a local smith as far as mounting sights . Everything actually.

I agree.It's these details we value and that make us want to own a custom rifle or have custom work done.I guess most people shoot with scopes and therefore many smiths do not have the skills to turn out an accurate, straight shooting, open sight rifle.Once you get a rifle with a very shallow V, that shoots straight on and to the correct elevation,you feel that you have something special.

I've had gunsmiths ruin barrels for me. They don't all do good work.

I guess I'm curious what would be the different requirements for barrel installed for Iron Sight use as apposed to a barrel installed for Scope use

quote:

Originally posted by DArcy_Echols_Co:
I guess I'm curious what would be the different requirements for barrel installed for Iron Sight use as apposed to a barrel installed for Scope use

That would require a lot more money and patience.

I tried the A-Frames.There is the 3 shot group bottom left(I took no fouler shot).The group size was not bad.I was distracted by another rifle going off next to me while firing the shot that went far left.It could of caused a flinch.I will try again with both the A-Frames and 550gr Woodleighs next time out and see what I get.A shorter front sight sight bead would raise that POI.
[URL= ]100yds/open sight/off the bench[/URL]

I moved the sight a bit to the right and shot another group today at 100yds using the A-frames(same as target above).
I think I will leave it as this setting.

[URL= ]100yds/off the bench[/URL]

Try a 50 yard group for alignment. Takes a bit of user error out of it. Also a target better suited for open sights.
Glad it's sorted out for you!

After putting all the pieces in the puzzle together the whole issue seems to have been caused by the bullets.Unlike some my other Lotts this barrel shoots 500gr A-Frames and 550gr Woodleighs quite a few inches apart.I looked back in a previous post I did years ago and I noticed that I had the same issue with a CZ.My Pacnor barrelled Lott sights were regulated with a different type of bullet..I don't know which my smith used.Had I sent him A-frames all would 've been fine.

quote:

Originally posted by Dead Eye:
Try a 50 yard group for alignment. Takes a bit of user error out of it. Also a target better suited for open sights.
Glad it's sorted out for you!

I believe it is very important to sight them first dead centre at 100yds.That way they are guaranteed to shoot bullseye with the same sight blade at 50yds and 25yds.Doing the opposite does not always work out-most of the time it doesn't.

I shot this group at 100yds off the bench today.
The first round on the far right was a fouler shot.
I was using some old 500gr Hornady RNSP's I once bought off someone at the range.[URL= ]100yds/open sights/off the bench[/URL]
It looks like the A-frames shot better.

Does your front sight bead completely over the Orange bull @ 100 ?

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
Does your front sight bead completely over the Orange bull @ 100 ?

Not completely over but covering the centre- same way I shoot my open sights 308.The only difference being I get one hole groups with the 308.
Although the bore and rifling of this barrel is new and super crisp there is something about it that does not make it a very accurate one.This was a pre threaded and pre chambered barrel and my smith had to make some modifications so it would fit.It might have been better if he did the threading and chambering.The good thing about it is that it seems to keep the accuracy it has.My smith is currently working on my second Lott.It too has a Pac-nor pre-threaded and chambered barrel.That should be ready in a couple of weeks.It will have soldered sights as I requested.The Pacnor barrels on both my doubles are all much more accurate than this one.So is the Krieger on my Vektor Lott.This is the rifle I will be taking to the upcoming shoot in Libby, Montana.I have yet to shoot it at 200yds.I wonder if it would keep the same accuracy it has at 100yds?

I was at the range today for a final test before next weeks shoot.I cleaned my bore with wipe-out and shot at 100yds.The first three shots were too far to the right so I moved the rear sight to the left-almost dead centre-that made aligning my sights much more easy, and the rifle grouped the last two rounds I had left near the bullseye.I think that I am starting to figure this rifle out.On the far bottom left is a 4 shot group I shot with my 308.

[URL= ]100yds[/URL]

Using express sights, that's a very good group for 100. You should be ready for Libby.