I saw a new Winchester 2010 catalogue with a return of Big Bore chamberings for 2010. Calibers listed were 458 win. mag., 416 Rem., and 375 H&H. not sure when they will be out in the market...Any one heard or seen anything?

Suggest retail was $1,249.00.

There's nothing on their website.

you'd think they would have heard of the Lott and 404 Jeffery by now; let alone stuff like the 416 Rigby and the 505 Gibbs.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by jjs:
I saw a new Winchester 2010 catalogue with a return of Big Bore chamberings for 2010. Calibers listed were 458 win. mag., 416 Rem., and 375 H&H. not sure when they will be out in the market...Any one heard or seen anything?

Suggest retail was $1,249.00.

That's good news. Maybe there finally listening, I get tired of seeing only wsm calibers for sale.

If the price drops on the New Haven rifles I'll buy those.

i saw the same catalogue.... the dealer (don's firearms in victoria tx) told me he had no idea as to when the guns would be available.... but that they would be in the $1100 range....

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
you'd think they would have heard of the Lott and 404 Jeffery by now; let alone stuff like the 416 Rigby and the 505 Gibbs.

Rich

Capstick and lott HAD been available in custom shop ... listed, but only sold TWO rigby ... simply those do NOT fit in a m70 for a commerically viable perspective.

Jeffe, I don't understand your post. Are you saying that you think there were no Capsticks or Lotts sold from the custom shop? You need to look in my safe if you think so

I wish they would offer a 404 J. I know where there is a New Haven, Mod 70 safari classic in 375 H&H for $999.00 and it appears new: It was available a week ago
I believe they are just making it simple for the time being and offering like dia. cases so there is less engineering involved.
Bare in mind they will probably sell for $100.00- $200.00 less than list price.

EZ

quote:

for the time being and offering like dia. cases

Does not explain the 458 win mag and not the Lott.

Only one deacent choice IMHO, is the 375HH. Typical bad marketing I have come to expect from Winchester. I suppose they fired all the workers down in New Haven and kept the same old managment team! Atleast this might be a nice weight and balance 375HH alternative to the war club Ruger offers.

I sure hope they offer the .375 in a stainless/Synthetic. I wouldn't mind the a tupper ware version of the .416 either.

quote:

I sure hope they offer the .375 in a stainless/Synthetic.

Yes, that would get may attention. I have an older M70 in 375HH and I like it very much. It would be an alternative to the Ruger alaskan that is not offered in the H&H flavor. Figure the odds,...

I just picked up an as new but used Safari Classic in 458 Win mag for 1095.00 so I guess I am ahead of the curve. It will go well with my SC in 375 H&H I purchased about 6 months before Winchester announced its problems, for 750.00 and that said, I would not hold my breath awaiting a new version from the new company. I don't think the new model 70's are selling very well at all. They have been on sale at Cabelas and still ain't moving so I don't think they will be too quick to bring out the heavy calibers anytime soon.

that, in a nutshell, is Winchester's problem. There is no sense of vision there. It's all about copying and the "me too" mentality.
They'll screw this up, give them a chance.

Rich

I will have to get one in 375 H&H, then I can give the 375 Sako AV to my wife. She calls it her 375 anyway.

I think I would have to run a 375 Weatherby reamer into a new Model 70 as I always wanted a Weatherby caliber. Just not really in a Weatherby rifle.

BigB

If Winchester brings out a 375 stainless / synthetic again, I hope they offer a smaller dia barrel like they offer in the Chrome moly version.
My 375 Stainless Classic has a barrel that would work for a 458; very heavy!
It would be about perfect for a 416 or 404J.

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:
Jeffe, I don't understand your post. Are you saying that you think there were no Capsticks or Lotts sold from the custom shop? You need to look in my safe if you think so

no, sir..i said they HAD been available .. i don't have a clue if they will offer them in the futher ... however, the gibbs won't fit, and the full length rigby is a nightmare to get to feed .. so, 2 of the rigby's...

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
that, in a nutshell, is Winchester's problem. There is no sense of vision there. It's all about copying and the "me too" mentality.
They'll screw this up, give them a chance.

Rich

I happened to glance at the blue book and marvel at the model 70's offered from the 1998-2006 period. Sporters,customs,coyotes,laredos,left handed and on and on.
I'm afraid those days are long gone. Such is life in modern america. God bless the gunsmiths!

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
you'd think they would have heard of the Lott and 404 Jeffery by now; let alone stuff like the 416 Rigby and the 505 Gibbs.

Rich

yeah, you would think so.

but last time i called they still had no specific plans for Std length left hands

Hope that changes--

jjs: Are they in the new catalog??

I remember reading in a bolt action book, I think the author's name was Stuart Otteson or similar and he said the 375 H&H was retained in the post 64 action because of marketing and the post 64 action was lengthened.

I think Winchester fails to recognise that while big bores are small sellers the owners are usually enthusiasts who in turn influence non enthusiasts in their purchases. Leupold has been very effective in this area by catering to the benchrest crowd.

It makes perfect sense that if Winchester does at some point re-enter the big bore market it will be 416 Remington and 458 Winchester, or an H&H based case as that is the action they have available, that will work!

The only action ever done that will work with any of the 404 J based cases is the very extensively modified M70s that were chambered in 300 RUM. Those actions had to be modified to work with this case. Those are the only actions that can be used to work and function with 404 J or RUM based big bore cartridges. It is the base action for my 500 MDM. Many folks, including RIP I think, have used this action for the 404 and other like cartridges. I currently have 3 500 MDM based rifles in the works, using only this action, and have two rifles in use.

Larger cartridges, 416 Rigby + and of the .505 or .510 cartridges simply will not fit into the action, and will not function. I knew the folks at the Custom Shop personally in New Haven, and had regular contact with them. Jeffe may be right with only 2 Rigbys made, not sure of that, but I am sure they would not work. They made 125 of the Big 5 Series guns in 470 Capstick--I have two of those--and neither would retain cartridges in the magazine, just that much bigger in diameter than a 458 Lott and that is all it took. Now Brian at SSK has sorted that out for me and the 470s work and function just fine, and retain 3 down in the magazine. But Winchester had little experience with the big bore rifles and could not sort that issue out at all. I am quite sure the other 123 rifles will not function or retain cartridges in the magazine, however I doubt seriously that the other 123 rifles have been shot as extensively as the two I have. In fact I would bet a fair sum that all the remaining 123 rifles together have not been shot as many times as 1 of mine--if they have even been shot at all!

Until Winchester ever decides to build a bigger action you won't ever see a 505 or 510 based cartridge on one. Not one that will work and function anyway.

So you will see 375 HH-416 Rem-458 Win and maybe one day the 458 Lotts again. They did rather well with the 458 Lotts--I have I think 4 from the old Custom Shop and have used them extensively. Did have to tweak a few minor things, but overall they did rather well on most of those.

Michael

Thanks for the clairifaction Jeffe. I hope we do get a Lott in the new one at some point!

I would just like to see them come from the factory with a action like butter and a billet extractor.

They only offered the lott, iirc, as a custom shop gun .. a lott on a m 70 is EASY .. take the mag box apart and then recut chamber! .. adjust feeding, IF required.

MM - our 500 class carts would work in a m70, yeah? LOL .. as well as my 470

Jeffe

Your 500 AR is based on 416 Rigby--I think? Answer-no. 470-458-416 ONLY on the RUM based Win M70--like my 500 MDM. We have been trying to figure the standard actions out--but never without extremely radical, experimental, modifications. For instance any standard 300 Win Mag--375 HH is a NO GO. Now I am talking about 100% feed-function-and the biggest issue is retain 3 cartridges down in the magazine!!!! I suppose one could do a nice "bolt action single shot" but that would be it.

Michael

Oh and Jeffe is 100% correct--458 Lott ONLY OFFERED out of the Custom Shop when they did one. Also at one time offered some damn fine 358 STAs--I got two of those!

M

buckeye

Any 375 HH can be made into a very nice 458 Lott without much issue. And one of the few good uses I can see for one of those!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Jeffe

Your 500 AR is based on 416 Rigby--I think? Answer-no.

Why wouldn't a Rigby case that was shortened not work in the M70?

Hey Mike

They are too big in diameter to retain in the magazine. Don't take me wrong---I am a long way from being an expert on this subject and I work with Brian Alberts at SSK Industries, they do all my work. And from what we have learned on the M70s even the RUM case is impossible without a tremendous amount of modifications inside the magazine box! The only one we can get to work with RUM based cases is the Win M70 that was chambered for some time in the 300 RUM. Winchester did these modifications for that cartridge. Not so on the standard actions.

Michael

Michael

MM and MM
It can be made to feed.. and being shorter don't hurt, either RUM or rigby ..

I like my 500 AccRel on a ruger m77 ... and unless MM is saying the rifle that doesn't start with WIN is better than the one that does ... LOL.. at that a peach?

Not to stir anything here, but didn't 500grains have a 585 nyati built on a model 70? Would not have left much metal around the barrel shank for the chamber, guess it worked but not my preference.
Rodney.

Jeffe

You know me well--Let me see-is "R" scratched on the receiver or the barrel of a Ruger???? If it's on the barrel I can have that barrel snatched off and call it anything, including Winchester--on the receiver maybe I could scratch it off and replace it somehow-then it would be peachy!

Feed is no issue with the Winchester--but retaining 3 down in the magazine and working the bolt is a big problem. The Ruger is way different in that aspect and will work proper, but feeding some of the big flat meplat solids I like to use is an issue, but one that probably can be sorted out. In fact we are very sure, although never done, that the entire B&M line would work fine on the Ruger without much of a problem at all.

As for a 585 Nyati I don't see how in the world you would get something like that on a Winchester? Maybe a single shot? But a functioning 3 rd down rifle?????? I am like you boys from Missouri--Someone gotta show me that!

Michael

RE: Model 70 expansion (in Big Bores) by Robgunbuilder
Dakota IMHO though. Our own 500grs once hunted Africa with a 585Nyati built on a Win Model 70 action...
Accuratereloading.com > The Accurate Reloading Forums > THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS > Big Bores
09 February 2009 04:21

Found this from a quick search. It's been done.
Rodney.

500 grains bought one .. the barrel shank is pretty thin at that point .. but, it can be done.

quote:

Originally posted by BigB:
.....
I think I would have to run a 375 Weatherby reamer into a new Model 70 as I always wanted a Weatherby caliber. Just not really in a Weatherby rifle.

BigB

If Win comes out with 375H&H next year - I'm going to be tempted to ream one!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
you'd think they would have heard of the Lott and 404 Jeffery by now; let alone stuff like the 416 Rigby and the 505 Gibbs.

I honestly don't think the guys at Winchester have. I called them twice a few months back to recommend the 404 Jeffery, neither guy had a clue what it was.

I guess most people who buy an over the counter DGR, is rather happy about chamberings that have available cartridges over the same counter.
Lott is gaining, true, but is still not close and the .458 WinMag is their own baby.
That they stick to their H&H magbox is quite understandable, but it would be nice to see the .375Weatherby, .400 H&H, .458Lott and .470Capstic as options from their custom shop.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Jeffe

Your 500 AR is based on 416 Rigby--I think? Answer-no.

Why wouldn't a Rigby case that was shortened not work in the M70?

The bolt diameter is .695 on the model 70. The Rigby is .590 I think so not much room left. As far as big bore cartridges other than based on the 375 H&H case the 404 Jeffery is at the limit.

There's a post '68 stainless in the shop, Leupold 4 - 14x or thereabouts, VX II, .375 H&H.

I gotta stop hanging out in gun shops . . .

quote:

Originally posted by Wm.S.Ladd:
There's a post '68 stainless in the shop, Leupold 4 - 14x or thereabouts, VX II, .375 H&H.

I gotta stop hanging out in gun shops . . .

what does post 68 mean?

quote:

Lott is gaining, true, but is still not close and the .458 WinMag is their own baby.

I wonder. I just did a quick check at cabelas, online. I see two CZ550 in 458 Lott and zero in 458Win. The CZ550 in 458 were special discounted at a big shop here last year at $850. I was told it was a close out special buy. I suspect given a choice for new guns the lott is 10 to 1 favorite over the winmag (assuming a choice). Now for ammo sales the winmag must be way ahead because of all the old guns out there. I get the impression Winchester is (or was) not run by gun people. Bean counters, save a nickel on manufacturing and heck with customer.

How many Model 92 clone imports do we have yet Winchester would not build one? Marlin sells 44 mags like hot cakes. And did Winchester offer the 44mag in the 94 angle eject! God how typical. Winchester had the name - and they blew it.