I have to join the club with Q's about shooting the CZ550 in 458 Lott and POI. Using Hornady Factory 500gr solids, the gun is shooting very low.

I cannot zero the scope. I am shooting at 25 yards and with the scope set at max elevation. I am 4-6 inch low (depending on which rings I use). I swapped rings from Tally to CZ and got a small diff, but same problem - Shooting extremely low.

I also found that my best zero with open sites was using the 300 yard leaf. From reading here I assume this is normal. Or use of 200 yard leaf was normal so I assumed 300 was fine?

I am not a great shot with open sites from improvised position (sitting in snow). I get 1 inch 25 yrd groups. Thats par for me these days, without good rest. Nothing real obviously wrong to me - except POI low.

I like the added weight of a scope. I was able to go from 9 1/2 to 10 7/8 pounds with steel rings and a beefy 3-9x Bushnel Elite. Not enough eye relief so I plan to return the scope. Scope is fine, just not right for this gun. I need 4 min eye relief. They were out of the black powder scopes and this was on sale.

I am wondering, has anyone tried brass shims stock between the scope and one half of each ring? Would some kind of heavy paper or card stock be better. My worry is the slight angle down on the scope might put stress on the scope tube and bend the scope. Or stress the action. Has anyone here ever tried to hammer a slight taper into a shim? Or will card stock give a little. Am I over thinking this or is the gun out to lunch?

I was reminded of some of shootaway targets with all the holes at the bottom, except this is at 25 yards!

Shim the scope base. I have shimmed scope bases using cut up aluminum cans as they won't rust, are thin enough to be able to use in increments and work fine.

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
.......... I also found that my best zero with open sites was using the 300 yard leaf. From reading here I assume this is normal ..........

That has been my experience at 25 yds also, fourbore.

James

Burris Posi-Align rings and offset inserts could solve your problem. Check out the website.

You can also insert brass, plastic, steel, ets shims under the scope bases to adjust for elevation.

Check the parallax...most non-parallax adjustable scopes are set for 100-150 yds and at 25 yards you can have a WHOLE lot of cross hair movement. Make sure the scope can be set parallax free at the distance your shots are taken.

Bore site it for sure...4" at 25 yds...whew...you should be able to see the scope pointing to the sky from the side...or the barrel bent...

A 0.010" thick shim under the rear scope mount should tell you something and you wouldn't have to do anything other than loosen the screws about a turn and a half and insert the shim then lock the screws down again. This is a down and dirty quick check on the scope system. Only takes about 15 minutes to set up and is just as easily returned to OEM setup.

I would stay away from shimming the rings as that CAN tweak the scope.

I would also explore shooting form, trigger control, recoil sensitivity and another brand of ammo.

You didn't say which brand or type of scope or the power setting.

Hornady 500gr FMJ factory load. The scope is Bushnell 3200 Elite. Talley QR and Leupold rings.

Moving my head side to side - I saw about 1 inch parallax movement at 25 yards. Its way more than parallax. I was planning to move out too 50&100 yard shooting, but never got beyond 25.

The posi align is interesting, I am waiting for the weaver bases, so my choices now are limited. Maybe later. My Talley rings are 30mm with one inch plastic inserts. I might take a long wooden dowel and wrap sand paper and put a little down tilt into the plastic.

If I had the weaver base, I could try the Nikon Omega 1-5x black powder scope. That has 5 inch eye relief. That is the ultimate plan. Those bases are months away. If ever, based on the parts dept attitude at CZ. I wish I could get those bases sooner ....

You mention flinch. I started off shooting fresh as a daisy, and by time I removed the scope for third time. I took a few sanity check open sited shots, I resorted to the past. I think with a heavy scope and past, I could manage shooting from the bench. But at 25 yards, I was just trying to get close and then move to 50yds. I never ran a scope out of adjustments. Weird, instead of sweating the clicks it was full turn after turn.

Weaver one piece CZ bases just showed up Oh boy now we are going to have some fun I ordered a set of those fancy Burris adjustable rings. Thank you Foo bar.

I am perusing the Cabelas catalog looking at other scope options. Eventually like to try one of those Bushnell multi dots, maybe later.....

fourbore,there are certain things that MUST be done to get a CZ lott shooting to the same spot all the time.If you leave out any of these it will not.First,you need to use red loctite or acraglass on your guard screws and recoil lug screw and tighten them down at at least 65lbs.Second,use the same stuff on the rear sight screw(and tighten the hell out of it) once you have the windage set or shooting anywhere in the center,when shooting offhand.Third,if the rifle is shooting too high or low,purchase a new front sight from NECG to correct-do not use the long range leaf sights,but use the 50yd fixed leaf instead.Fourth,clean the bore with JB on a patch around a 45 cal. copper bruch,to remove all the copper and restore accuracy after every session.

fourbore,

Send me the rifle, scope, rings, and rounds. I'll sight her in for you and send it back postage due.

Thanks Shootaway. I see a fair amount of copper in the bbl. I will get that under control before it builds up too much.

I think with the adjustable Burris rings and weaver base, I can zero a scope and then get a sense of how the gun shoots. Now I can try any scope that tickles my fancy.

To date, the open sited shooting seems consistant - but I dont shoot as much as you and many others here. Not close. I have 1 inch groups and within 1 inch of point of aim- all been 25 yard shooting.

I looked at the front sight after my first day out. I cannot get the SOB off - stuck solid. So; figured I just use the 300 yard leaf. Seems ok for my needs.

You might want to use agraglass to hold the three hundred yard leaf up under recoil.The recoil will cause the leaf to move even if you think it doesn't, and send bullets everywhere.

replace the front bead, don't be a willful idiot and screw up your gun ..

reverse the rings, as well

quote:

Send me the rifle, scope, rings, and rounds. I'll sight her in for you and send it back postage due

Really, if you provided the ammo, I would be tempted. Then, What would be the fun in that?

Send it back to CZ and they will fix it. I had that problem with both my CZ's in 458WM and 458 Lott. They both shot a foot low at 50yds with the scope in CZ rings. I called CZ and Scott in warranty assigned a warranty number and they took care of them. I had them back in less than a month.

A scopewith 1/4" clicks moves the impact 1/4" at 100 yds...but one quarter that amount at 25 yds...or 1/16"...so to move the impact 4" at 25 yds you would have to screw in 64 clicks!!!!. Some of my older scopes only have 5 inches of total movement...2.5" up and 2.5" down from the center position.

Yeah...been there, done that...depending on the scope, you can wear yourself AND your scope knobs out trying to get all the components to work out.

The Posi-Align rings work very well...I have two sets of them on long range rifles.

You WILL have to lock down and lock in all the different screws...but I wouldn't use RED locktite...once set you can have a real hard time getting them undone again. It used to go under the name of "Stud and Bearing mount"...I used it to lock in spun bearings and engine studs on engines from Briggs and Stratons to 6-71 Jimmy's to Cat's ...the only thing worse was the Green Catapillar stuff...Green cat sh*t we used to call it...and you never used it on something you wanted to take apart again...the blue stuff works just as well and you can get the screws out if need be without stripping the slots out.

I use blue locktite on all my scope rings and mounts from 17 to 50 calto at least 120 ft lbs of slap and so far never had a scope slip under recoil. Scheared off some screws tho'. I also use a drop of the blue stuff inside the rings as it will give you a perfect, nonslip fit.

You know this already I suspect.

quote:

Originally posted by FOOBAR:
.......... the blue stuff works just as well and you can get the screws out if need be without stripping the slots out.

I use blue locktite on all my scope rings and mounts from 17 to 50 calto at least 120 ft lbs of slap and so far never had a scope slip under recoil ......... I also use a drop of the blue stuff inside the rings as it will give you a perfect, nonslip fit .........

Good advice, FUBAR -- I use blue Loctite for the same reasons and in the same manner you outline.

quote:

Send it back to CZ and they will fix it. I had that problem with both my CZ's in 458WM and 458 Lott. They both shot a foot low at 50yds with the scope in CZ rings. I called CZ and Scott in warranty assigned a warranty number and they took care of them. I had them back in less than a month.

Ed,

What did they do to fix? Why are all the 458's this way? Or are they all like this? And would fixing or raising the POI make a better gun than using the Burris rings.

I guess I dont understand is this a defect or something else? What exactly is off, top of action, barrel, threading mis aligned? Is accuracy or reliability a concern?

I already have the Weaver base, the Burris rings are now on order, so either way I will be using the Burris rings.

When I called and described what they were doing, Scott immediately said he knew what had happened and to send them back. He said that the barrel had been "pulled down". A local gunsmith told me they would put the barrel in a "barrel straightener" and if that did not work they would probably replace the barrel. My concern was the accuracy if they straightened the barrel. Both shot very well when I got them back and elevation is no longer an issue. I shot both until the barrel got very hot and the point of impact and shape of group did not change--that had been a real concern for me.

Thanks Ed, seems with CZ it is always something ... I will leave it as-is for a while. Pulled Down new terminology to me ! I will make a wild guess and assume this is when the front screw is tighten down on the barrel

This was a gun shipped with a 100 meter test target, presumably open sited, but WTF - are these targets even real. The barrel looked unfired to me.

You can certainly "pull" a barrel out of miss-alignment easy enough if there is a third mounting point out on the barrel for a sling or recoil lug...and you can pull a barrel out of whack if there is a pad in/on the bottom of the stock barrel groove at the front.

Many factory rifles have such a pad, Rem and Ruger for certain...but that usually results in the barrel being pulled down at the front receiver mount which results in the barrel muzzle being pushed UP by the front pad and the rifle would shoot high.

One way you can check that is to loosen the front receiver screw while holding the junction of the barrel and stock between your thumb and first finger...you can feel any wiggling or movement easy enough...or put your rifle in a solid mount, gun vise etc., and setup a dial indicator on the end of the barrel.

A couple of wraps around the stock/receiver just in front of the screw will hold the receiver together against the slight amount of flexing that is there but won't affect any bending caused by bad bedding or any other point pressure, and a indicator at 90° will indicate and side to side flexing.

Release the front receiver or rear screws slowly...any amount of "bend" will show up on the indicator.

I check this way after bedding a rifle...any amount that I didn't put in for a reason means I need to do some corrective work....You can do the same when mounting a scope...as you screw down the rings any movement could indicate a bending of the scope tube.

If your stock is bedded correctly on pillars or a bedding block you can torque it down to about 50 in lbs and it will stay forever. Unless you have the receiver bedded in metal you're whizzing in the wind...wood compresses over time, fiberglass compresses over time and the torqueing will continue to squeeze the wood...Don't mean to start a hoohaa here...a good piece of hard wood bedded correctly will last a lifetime and hardly ever or have very little loss of zero for the most part for hunting accuracy. Releasing the torque after hunting season helps reduce the amount of compression over time.

Barrel "straightening" has been done from the beginning. As long as there isn't any change in impact from cold to hot barrel during shooting. Unless a barrel has been stress releived those stresses will be released over time by shooting and most rifle still have to be re-zeroed every year.

And a "straight" barrel is almost a contradiction in terms as anyone who has looked down a ready to chamber barrel can attest I think. I've had a couple of very expensive ones but I just oriented the bend upwards and they still won me a few bobbles at matches and also made a lot of coyotes fat on rat meat.

You might also look for a set of rings set up for 1000 yd shooting with built in elevation adjustment...I think that 0.005" is equal to 1" adjustment at 100 M for a 18" sight radius, so 20 MOA adjustment would help.

If this seems to be a common event with CZ I would send it back as they undoubtedly know the problem and the solution.

As usual there are several solutions to a problem and you have to work throught them one at a time until it's fixed.

Thank you FooBar,

I appreciate your taking the time to explain this. With the weaver base and Burris rings I should be able to get on target. If it shoots ok, I will be satisfied.

When, this is all sorted out, I think I will post a follow up note.

For me, for fun shooting: the CZ550 in 375 is heavy, but I still like it and in 416, should be just right(I have a similar Ruger) and the 458Lott is light.

I felt a nice improvement in shooting with the extra weight added to the Lott.

The CZ in Lott weighs 9.5 pounds. I can shoot it, but it is not fun. I got it up close to 11 pounds and it went from rude punch to big push. Fun! With the Weaver iron base and new scope I calculate that I should be near 11 1/4 pounds for the 458Lott. The nice thing about this, is no perminant weight added to the gun. Does not kill the resale or if I want to hunt and carry it all day - I can take the weight off and go open sighted. The balance remains good. The added weight is right in the center.

Fourbore,
I certainly understand the frustration, I have been thru it twice. CZ will fix it and pretty quick as well. I have had my 458WM for over a year since they "fixed" it and I have not had to re-zero. I did have the action bedded to help prevent the stock from splitting and help on groups. I have probably put about 200rds thru it in the past year and have shot it hot in winter months and summer with no real change in point of impact or group size. I have had the Lott for about 5 months and CZ had it for about 4 weeks of that. I have shot it hot several times with no change in groups for it as well. My recent problem was more related to matching the powder and bullet combination to get both solid and softnose to impact at the same point of aim. I have that worked out now by using IMR4320 powder with both solid and softnose.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
fourbore,there are certain things that MUST be done to get a CZ lott shooting to the same spot all the time.If you leave out any of these it will not.First,you need to use red loctite or acraglass on your guard screws and recoil lug screw and tighten them down at at least 65lbs.Second,use the same stuff on the rear sight screw(and tighten the hell out of it) once you have the windage set or shooting anywhere in the center,when shooting offhand.Third,if the rifle is shooting too high or low,purchase a new front sight from NECG to correct-do not use the long range leaf sights,but use the 50yd fixed leaf instead.Fourth,clean the bore with JB on a patch around a 45 cal. copper bruch,to remove all the copper and restore accuracy after every session.

I must have got lucky. After applying blue loctitie to the stock screws and snugging them down, my CZ 458 Lott shoots nice groups at 50 yds with no further modifications and using my normal cleaning regimen.

James

quote:

Originally posted by jamesicus:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
fourbore,there are certain things that MUST be done to get a CZ lott shooting to the same spot all the time.If you leave out any of these it will not.First,you need to use red loctite or acraglass on your guard screws and recoil lug screw and tighten them down at at least 65lbs.Second,use the same stuff on the rear sight screw(and tighten the hell out of it) once you have the windage set or shooting anywhere in the center,when shooting offhand.Third,if the rifle is shooting too high or low,purchase a new front sight from NECG to correct-do not use the long range leaf sights,but use the 50yd fixed leaf instead.Fourth,clean the bore with JB on a patch around a 45 cal. copper bruch,to remove all the copper and restore accuracy after every session.

I must have got lucky. After applying blue loctitie to the stock screws and snugging them down, my CZ 458 Lott shoots nice groups at 50 yds with no further modifications and using my normal cleaning regimen.

James

Good for you jamesicus-but just because your rifle shot well at the range once or twice,does't mean it will shoot well most of the time.My goal is to get the rifle to keep it's POI,when shooting either softs or solids,out to at least 100yds and to function flawlessly in doing so,all the time.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by jamesicus:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
fourbore,there are certain things that MUST be done to get a CZ lott shooting to the same spot all the time.If you leave out any of these it will not.First,you need to use red loctite or acraglass on your guard screws and recoil lug screw and tighten them down at at least 65lbs.Second,use the same stuff on the rear sight screw(and tighten the hell out of it) once you have the windage set or shooting anywhere in the center,when shooting offhand.Third,if the rifle is shooting too high or low,purchase a new front sight from NECG to correct-do not use the long range leaf sights,but use the 50yd fixed leaf instead.Fourth,clean the bore with JB on a patch around a 45 cal. copper bruch,to remove all the copper and restore accuracy after every session.

I must have got lucky. After applying blue loctitie to the stock screws and snugging them down, my CZ 458 Lott shoots nice groups at 50 yds with no further modifications and using my normal cleaning regimen.

James

Good for you jamesicus-but just because your rifle shot well at the range once or twice,does't mean it will shoot well most of the time.My goal is to get the rifle to keep it's POI,when shooting either softs or solids,out to at least 100yds and to function flawlessly in doing so,all the time.

I am spending several days at the range each week, shooting at various distances, now that the weather is getting nicer. I will also be reloading using various bullet weights and powders. I will report grouping and function reliability results here from time to time.

James

Shim the scope Thats what I did and its Right at
POA

jro,

Appreciate the advise, but I now have a weaver top rail "system" for two of my big CZ's. This gives me total freedom to use anything. the Burris ring is designed to address this problem and price is good. I hope the quality is as good.

The down side of the weaver base is weight, but on the Lott and Gibbs that is a plus IMHO. The scope will be higher, but with a long eye relief blackpowder scope I think the egonomics will be right as my head is father back and held higher. That is the plan.

The weaver base is held with screws on the side So the base, rings and scope can be removed as a unit. And replaced with the conventional low power low weight Leupold with std rings (assuming a straight barrel) or for open sited hunting.

I got a CZ 550 in 416 Rigby it shot well out of the box. I have a 500 Jefferys coming I hope it does the same

The 500schulers come from the custom shop in St Louis. It should be fine. I would have more confidence in feeding with the bigger 505 gibbs than the short rebated schuler, but; I think the guys in St Louis are pretty good.

If its not too late, you might consider how the 416 and 505 share a common look, history and design. Both are large, low pressure ctgs introduced around 1910/12 in England. The 500 schuler was a German design, adopted by Jeffrey for a few guns, 20 years later. It is a high pressure shorter case intended for standard length actions. All are fine, but the 416 and 505 are make a great looking pair and share a history.

Progress!

I got the Burris rings today. These are a great idea! I wonder if this is patented? The plastic insert rotates in a ball joint so there is zero chance to either bend a scope tube or scratch the metal. Nice. Nice. Nice. An offset kit is sold as a separate package of little plastic split rings 5,10,20 thou. off center.

I put 20/1000 offset insert in the rear ring and three shot later - I cut the 10X. Since this scope is soon to be replaced I called it quits. Saving my ammo and $$$.

The good features of this are: I can push the scope way forward. Even with a loose hold, pretty much impossible to ding the forehead. All that weight, dampens the recoil. Only four torques screws for quick removal. It is easy to position the rear ring and scope with the shoulder up against the ring for no slippage under recoil.

The bad is the scope ends up pretty high. And I found scope rear bell just barely cleared the weaver base. But, it did clear - perfect. The look is a bit odd. Ok for me. Perhaps others might want a little reshaping of the base once the ring position is determined?