Picture say you are James Sullivan, Sam Baker or a Bill Feldstein.
The point being you are rich enough to have a gun bearer carry your gun, your stuff and even you where you need to be.

When the biggest elephant you have ever seen gets ready to charge what gun will it be that faithful Mumbubu now hands you?

Karl.

Hi Karl,
A double rifle 8 bore

I would not go bigger than 600 Nitro Express because of the recoil. In fact, I would probably stop at 500 NE due to recoil and the need for a quick 2nd shot.

For a start, I don't like any gun bearer to carry my rifle, and I don't believe in all the claims that bigger is better.

I would stick with my own 375/404, loaded with our own Walterhog solids, and have absolutely no fear of facing the meanest tusker in the whole of Africa.

Now THAT'S confidence!

Pertinax

Sam Baker's prescription for charging elephants was "good nerves and a powerful double-barreled rifle, No. 8 or No. 4, with 14 drams of powder and a well-hardened bullet." That's right at 380 grains of black powder per barrel. Then there was Sir Sam's purpose-built elephant gun, a 22-pound single shot firing a half-pound explosive shell over 16 drams. The shell was constructed by casting lead around a small cast-iron seltzer charger with the nose protruding. Into the core went 8 drams of finest grained BP, then a cap over the nose/nipple.
Quite a chap, old Sam.

I would choose any of the more powerful .458, 500grs at 2200 to 2400 f/s. (Lott, Dakota, Rigby etc.), preferably a sturdy FN or SuperPenetrator.
The 4 bore or 8 bore are not sufficient to bring down reliable a charging big bull with a frontal head shot.
This fact is often described by the old ivory hunters, sometimes being in a dramatic dangerous situation.
But with the above mentioned pills I always brought them down, even with a little miss of the brain.

Well since weight isn't to be considered, I would opt for a M39 Lahti 20mm anti-tank rifle.

It will easily penetrate any elephant stem to stern making a nice 0.78" hole and a LOT of tissue trauma.

Otherwise, I will stick with the 500 Jeffery, 500 AHR, or 505 Gibbs.

ASS_CLOWN

.470NE or .500NE would probably be my choice. A .577NE would be better, but they can be slow to get into action (they're heavy).

George

.600 Overkill- I darn well know it will do the job! Since it's the definition of Overkill no need to go larger?-Rob

Rob,
yep... with the 550's following close behind!!

then again, the mbogo kick's ass!!

I'd no doubt pick my .470 N.E. with a solid..but most any big bore would suit me from 416 up...I have been told and read that the 500 N.E. is superior to the 577 or 600 due to penitration, but I don't know that...

I know that I can shoot a 416, 404 better and that the .470 is about my limit on recoil, or rather its all I intend to deal with..I have to concentrate on not flinching with the really big bores and that bothers me to some extent, maybe they are trying to tell me something

Anything from .375 H&H to 500A2 and all the Jeffery's and Gibbs and Nitro Expresses within that horse power bracket.
Whatever turns yiour crank.
Beyond that is just chest beating. Pun intended.
(Needless shoulder beating in other words.)

After looking through Saeed's hunting videos, I'm really impressed with the 375-404. The bigger it is, the faster it falls.

but of course, I've only been there with a camera.

My 700HE, Rob's 700BMG. Will stop a charge,
so critter doesn't fall on you.Ed.

I'll Stand with Saeed. Watched an ele bull take 4 .700 nitro in the head and finally die to a 9,3 bullet in the heart (but I won't admit that to the client).

Given enough money would go for a .500/.416 double.

Don't believe in second shots on a charge unless you are trying NOT to shoot the animal- like when an ele charges and you don't have one on permit!- and you fire one through an ear or high in the head to try and make the thing push off, and then realise you need to shoot for real in a real big hurry (because of course you left it too late with shouting and fireing a warning shot and...)

Hi Ganyana,
You and Saeed are probably right!

But...
In order always to be different

-I would go for my Miller & Greiss in 9,3x63 with Kens 325 grain FMJ

Going to Norma on Wednesday -will report to you about our progress.

Husky

BAR in .338WM with extended magazine full of solids.

I can dream can't I!

Saeed,

Sounds like if you had to have your rifles from only the Weatherbys you would come home with some 378s and then load them back.

Mike

quote:

---

Originally posted by Saeed:
For a start, I don't like any gun bearer to carry my rifle, and I don't believe in all the claims that bigger is better.

I would stick with my own 375/404, loaded with our own Walterhog solids, and have absolutely no fear of facing the meanest tusker in the whole of Africa.

---

I'm with you Saeed...when facing those really menacing sand traps in my lab, the only big bore I have stopped using is the 375 RUM (375/404)because it blows them to bits, with a solid occasionally exiting the WALL. Please do not tell my neighbors as they graze their horses on my land!

According to the laws of physics and terminal ballistics this should not happen, so I conclude that this round has a little black majic going for it...once you work a bit with this round at close range with good solids you are left with the distinct impression that you don't need more.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl:
Picture say you are James Sullivan, Sam Baker or a Bill Feldstein.
The point being you are rich enough to have a gun bearer carry your gun, your stuff and even you where you need to be.

When the biggest elephant you have ever seen gets ready to charge what gun will it be that faithful Mumbubu now hands you?

Karl.

---

Anything with a .400 or larger, quality solid traveling at 2100 fps up to 2550 fps of 400 grs or heavier up to .500NE in a double rifle! Any one of these in, or very near the brain will do the trick. The problem is getting it in or near the brain, with 16000 lbs of mad bull ele bearing down on you with mayhem on his mind!

Never shot an elephant but consider this.

I don't think you shock an elephant to death with energy. 5000 foot pounds to a 10,000 pound elephant is like 6 foot pounds to a wood chuck. Or 75 foot pounds (about a .22 short) to a white tail deer.

I do think you kill an elephant with adequate penetration. With solid bullets of the same sectional density and similar velocities, it should not matter what you shoot one with. So I would think a .375 300 grain solid at 2500 fps would equal or exceed a .458 500 grain at a slower velocity.

Trouble is, the same line of reasoning says a 7mm 170 grain would work just fine. Wonder why it doesn't, or maybe it does.

ill take my 700 nitro any day!!!!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl:
When the biggest elephant you have ever seen gets ready to charge what gun will it be that faithful Mumbubu now hands you?

---

Hi Karl

416 Rigby, 404 Rimless Nitro Express in bolt action or 450 NE in a double. 577 NE, 460Wby, 500 A-square, 378Wby is simply to much for me...

Now, where is the tusker?

Cheers
/ JOHAN

Thanks for the replies thus far.

Indy regards your reply, the reasoning is the elephant being just too large to appreciate the difference.

For example a thread on charging buffalo you don't usually see too many recommending the 375, in fact on that subject you could almost rename the 375 H&H the 375 Marginal

However for game 5-10 times larger than buff the 375 class makes a respectable comeback.

Is that saying the large bores greatest effect is only displayed on smaller game?

Karl.

Karl,

Have you decided that your 585 3" is in need of some serious steroids?

Do let us know what you select and good hunting, my friend!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Indy:

I do think you kill an elephant with adequate penetration. With solid bullets of the same sectional density and similar velocities, it should not matter what you shoot one with. So I would think a .375 300 grain solid at 2500 fps would equal or exceed a .458 500 grain at a slower velocity.

Trouble is, the same line of reasoning says a 7mm 170 grain would work just fine. Wonder why it doesn't, or maybe it does.

---

FYI

W.D.M. Bell shot a whole lot of elephants with a 7x57 using 175 gr. solids. So I would say that the reasoning holds up quite well ;-)

But I sure in the heck wouldn't want to be standing there all alone in charge situation with that caliber in my sweaty hands :-(

The problem with the theory concerning light bullets is that heavy bone is more easily broken by a bullet with greater mass. And a bullet with greater mass is less likely to be deflected when it runs into heavy bone than a lighter bullet.

Bell shot his slephant in the heart with a 7x57 - he did not use it for head shots on charging elephant. He also hunted elephant in open country and his contemporaries commented that using the Bell technique for elephants in thick jess would be neither practical nor wise.

I would pick the 378 Wby with backed off loads and muzzle brake for quickest recovery.

If it could not be a 378 then it would have to be similar in principle which is:

1) Chamber diameter much larger than bullet diameter since very blunt or flat nose bullets would be being used.

2) Vertical stack in line feed and it would have to be a push feed so that a case rim with a burr or whatever would not foul up a case rim trying to slide up under an extractor.

Mike

quote:

---

Originally posted by 500grains:
The problem with the theory concerning light bullets is that heavy bone is more easily broken by a bullet with greater mass. And a bullet with greater mass is less likely to be deflected when it runs into heavy bone than a lighter bullet.

Bell shot his slephant in the heart with a 7x57 - he did not use it for head shots on charging elephant. He also hunted elephant in open country and his contemporaries commented that using the Bell technique for elephants in thick jess would be neither practical nor wise.

---

This makes a lot of sense. If you hit a stationary bowling ball off center with another bowling ball, each will take off at an angle. But if you hit a stationary bowling ball off center with a billiard ball, the bowling ball will barely move but the billiard ball will careen off at a greater angle.

By this logic, I would pick a 500 grain bullet at whatever velocity is needed to penetrate to the elephant brain. Probably a 458 Winchester magnum or the equivalent in a double. Why not faster? Not needed and recoil is worse. Why not a heavier caliber? Recoil is bad.

Recoil has two effects. First, recovery for the second shot. Second, everyone flinches just a little, IMHO, and heavier rifles encourage more of it.

Well there ya go: .458 Win Mag is the ultimate stopper. But why not do 2150 fps with slightly lower pressure behind the 500 grainer. That spells .458 Lott., or even better, back to where it all started, the .450 NE double ballistics with 480 grain bullets.

So, will Mike375 be able to talk us into scrapping all CRF's and getting PF .378 Wby stopping rifles? No monobloc barreled doubles in .378 Wby please!

RIP,

If all else is equal, that is the rifle is OK, no staggered feed CRF can match the reliability for getting the cartridge into the chamber of a single stack push feed.

The large case diameter compared to bullet diameter also aids in chambering. None of this bullshit of grinding angles or bevels on NF truncated type solds.

With single stack I can add cartridges to the magazine while the rifle is loaded where as that is a so so situation with staggered feed.

Any case rim or extractor groove dimension problems will not prevent the push feed getting the case smoothly from the magazine to the chamber.

I have never short stroked but I am sure others have. But I think the Wby greatly reduces that with the momentum of the big heavy bolt and no drag from the piston in the cylinder system.

Now I will however admit that the operation of a criss cross feed in CRF is a much classier thing to behold happening.

Lastly, if the 378 is loaded back to 375 H&H ballistics the pressure will be hardly high enough to fireform the case.

If I was compelled to use CRF in this life/death situation then I would want a calibre like 375 H&H that was long and very tapered so as to reduce the angle of the case rim trying to get between that extractor and bolt face.

Mike

Having been involved in a bit of buffalo humor just this last summer which ended at very close range in very tight cover I am speaking for myself and from personal experience when I say.

I can't imagine a better platform than what I was using. A fast handeling, well fit double that swings like a fine fowling peice and hits with the authority of Thors hammer. Mine happens to be a .470 NE but any of the big nitro or equivilant calibers from .400 up would suffice.

a 45/70 loaded with Garrett ammo

just kidding

something in 50cal and up doing at least 2700fps with 530grns, like a 500 Weatherby

84mm Carl Gustav or maybe .55 Boyes Anti-Tank or .50BMG but due to ammo being hard to get and I suppose ethical reasons I would go for a .470NE or .416 Rigby.

Steve

Guys I would put forward you won't see much difference between two catridges that cannot shock a critter to death(that is fall down dead at the shot I mean)

The simple reasoning is they mostly run off with the bullets in the vitals or near brain shot or whatever etc.

So you are looking at kill time after shot, and you will never know the average uness everyone is submitting data, on calibre, game and kill time, or distance covered per instance.

I think it could work if a whole lot of PH's took some readings.

However it is a long tricky process.


The quick option is for someone to load up a 700nitro to 2600fps to cover all angles of bullet diametre/high velocity and see if it makes any difference on elephant and buffalo for a certain amount of kills.

If 15000ftlbs and a taylor KO of 300 doesn't make much difference we might as well scrap anything over 375 right now..

So who is prepared to clean up this 150 year old argument once and for all?

No more comparisons between what a 470 did next to 'the next time we tried a 500 a2 etc.etc.

If the 700BMG don't work its all over fellas..

Looking for a guy to land on the moon and tell us if it is made of cheese or not


Karl.

This XM-109 25mm Barret will do the trick on most big game.
Please note that it has already been preped for safari witha 1-4X scope for DG close quarters hunting. The rifle is only 33,3 lbs.



For longe range plaines game shooting the NTW 20 mm sniper rifle will do fine.



The perfect two rifle combo



BIG BRASS



Cheers,

André