Folks,

with this little project I have commenced I am wanting to go as short as I can.....and have sort of settled on 18" possibly go to 20".

Anyone own a Short barrelled .500 Bigbore of some kind and what are they like ?

Caliber is going to be .500 A2 I have dies etc. on the way.

PC- Why 18"? Thats awfully short. My .500a2 is 26". Mines bigger than yours!-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
PC- Why 18"? Thats awfully short. My .500a2 is 26". Mines bigger than yours!-Rob

I have just always thought that I wanted to build a compact thumper.....I would consider anything up to 22" but just wondering if anyone else has had experience with a .500 whatever with an 18" or thereabouts barrel.

I built both a 19" and a 21" .505 on a 416 Rigby case. But pretty much the same internal capacity and bullet weights you'll be shooting in an 500 A2. 100gr or so of powder in any of them to hit the velocity you want.

Muzzle blast gets a bit sharp in the shorter barrels. My 21" is the only gun my dog won't stay in the truck for if I am shooting off the tailgate. I settled on a 21" for myself. 18" was even more fun/noise. I wanted just a bit more weight and a tiny bit more barrel to burn that much powder in (but not sure I could actually justify that). .50 caliber is a big bore and I'd suspect 100grs of modern powder gets burned up in 18". Very little difference between 19/21 on my chrono results...between 25 and 40fps iirc. 21" balances better for me. My buddy loves his 18" which I have shot a lot as well. Either way you can easily make 2200fps with a 600 and 2350 with a 535 from an 18" barrel.

I really like my 21" 505. It is handy and light for caliber at 9.5#. It is built on a CZ550 with short thin forarm stock and balances right at the front of the mag plate. Also has a good size quarter rib on it to make it muzzle heavy. Decent to shoot with 525gr bullets. Bit of a bull running 600s. John Taylor seemed to think a 22" .50 cal might well be perfect big bore bolt gun when he hunted elephant after WWI.

I took his suggestion...well pretty close anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:
I built both a 19" and a 21" .505 on a 416 Rigby case. But pretty much the same internal capacity and bullet weights you'll be shooting in an 500 A2. 100gr or so of powder in any of them to hit the velocity you want.

Muzzle blast gets a bit sharp in the shorter barrels. My 21" is the only gun my dog won't stay in the truck for if I am shooting off the tailgate. I settled on a 21" for myself. 18" was even more fun/noise. I wanted just a bit more weight and a tiny bit more barrel to burn that much powder in (but not sure I could actually justify that). .50 caliber is a big bore and I'd suspect 100grs of modern powder gets burned up in 18". Very little difference between 19/21 on my chrono results...between 25 and 40fps iirc. 21" balances better for me. My buddy loves his 18" which I have shot a lot as well. Either way you can easily make 2200fps with a 600 and 2350 with a 535 from an 18" barrel.

I really like my 21" 505. It is handy and light for caliber at 9.5#. It is built on a CZ550 with short thin forarm stock and balances right at the front of the mag plate. Also has a good size quarter rib on it to make it muzzle heavy. Decent to shoot with 525gr bullets. Bit of a bull running 600s. John Taylor seemed to think a 22" .50 cal might well be perfect big bore bolt gun when he hunted elephant after WWI.

I took his suggestion...well pretty close anyway.

Thanks RDB,

20" or 19" might be the happy medium for me....

Last couple of years I have got quite sick of a lot of my long barrelled rifles, hence they have been sold. I have also commissioned a .416 Ruger it is to have a 21" barrel. The Stiller action on the .500 A2 will be a little longer than the long action on the .416 Ruger so if I drop 1 or 2" it will come in the same length as that rifle. My cz 550 .416 rigby got a little tiresome to carry on longer hunts, hence the shift to lighter more compact rifles for myself.

quote:

Anyone own a Short barrelled .500 Bigbore of some kind and what are they like ?

Depends upon whether you're discussing .500" groove or the traditional .508"-.510" groove diameter.

Michael458 has quite a few light weight short barreled .500 caliber (.500" groove diameter) rifles. Here's a link to his website:
http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

However if you're talking about 50 caliber (.508"-.510" groove diameter) then the only one I can think of is SafariKid who has a number (or at least had) a number of light weight short barreled rifles in that caliber.

Agreed on the short guns. I like how they handle a lot more than even an extra inch or two adds.

I have to admit to being some what of a snob as well becasue I like the rifle to look balanced..so short forarms with short barrels.

My 1/4 rib is almost as long as my forend on my last .505.

As much as I like a light rifle gotta admit to not being able to shoot the 600s in a under 9# rifle very well. Been 10 years since I was really after these guns but a 2" group off hand with a fast 5rds from my 8# 458 WM was "easy". A 9# .505 has me a bit buffalo'ed. So when I changed stocks recently I added almost a 1/2# in bedding weight. .525g bullets are OK now, but the 600g bullets at 2200fps are still, shall I say, "challenging". Best I have been able to do so far with the new stock is 2 sets of 4 fast rds was 4" at 50 yards off hand. Minute of buffalo may be, but I'd have a hard time chewing gun and shooting those 4 600s fast on game at the moment.

9 1/ lb rifles are not fun to carry in the field. The "old" guys though a 10.5# gun "handy". But then if you can't run a full magazine of ammo through them quickly and accurately what good is a .50 cal stopper?
I have no interest in and doubt I could shoot a .50 cal rifle weighting 8# with 500gr bullets doing something past 2200fps. God bless them that can!

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:
Agreed on the short guns. I like how they handle a lot more than even an extra inch or two adds.

I have to admit to being some what of a snob as well becasue I like the rifle to look balanced..so short forarms with short barrels.
…
9 1/ lb rifles are not fun to carry in the field. The "old" guys though a 10.5# gun "handy". But then if you can't run a full magazine of ammo through them quickly and accurately what good is a .50 cal stopper?
I have no interest in and doubt I could shoot a .50 cal rifle weighting 8# with 500gr bullets doing something past 2200fps. God bless them that can!

RDB,

A plus 2200fps muzzle velocity is not required with a .50 caliber 500gr bullet to assure more than adequate penetration on elephant as a properly designed FN monometal at around 2100fps (+/- 50fps) will provide plenty of penetration on elephant as demonstrated by Michael458’s photograph:

excerpted from page 1 of the Terminal Bullet Penetration thread.

I can truly say that a .500” 510gr FN Copper Solid at 2100fps (this is off the top of my head cause I don’t recollect exactly the velocity but was +/- 50fps) from a 7 ½ lb M70 (in 50 B&M caliber) with AI walnut stock was a pure joy to shoot as well as very accurate at short range and long range. Was my first time to shoot it and we didn’t shoot a timed simulated buff charge course…but with a few weeks practice it would be very doable. You need to hook up with Michael458 if possible and find out just how fun these short light weight rifles are to use.

Folks I was thinking about a 9.5 pound bare rifle then scope, rings, ammo & sling would be say 10.25 to 10.5 pounds.

I was wanting to run the 570 gr woodleigh at say 2300 fps.

I'm guessing this wont be toooo bad ?

Thanks Jim. How much powder burnt is part of the recoil impulse but at some point 500 and 600 gr bullets start to get your attention if pushed fast enough.

500s at 2100fps isn't a bad load...but I'll pass on a 7/12 # rifle. I've seen your and Michael's comments in past threads.

Here is a realistic look...with lots of video by a good hand on a big bore.

http://www.470mbogo.com/RecoilVideo.html

Some slick looking rifles (I had emailed Michael about the datail on them) and cartridge development no doubt. And I understand the idea behind them..small actions, small rifles, short powder stacks for less recoil.


I like the 500 MDM better than the Lott.


But not as good as..this for several reasons. Caliber size neck, workable shoulder, easy available brass, bullets and actions to build on. But it isn't easily going to make a sub 8# rifle. Sub 9# is going to be a challenge if you want it to stay in one piece shooting anything over 550 gr. @ 2200.



416 Rigby and a 505/416 (525gr)

I have a 20" 500AR that i built on a Mauser action, after finishing it i can't really imagine it with a longer barrel, i think it is perfect.

The reason it is 20" is Pac Nor made a boo boo with the barrel that S&F ordered originally, it turned up at 20" when he ordered a 24" and i ended up with it.

Paz

RDB

Couple of things. "Realistic Look" No, I don't buy that, sell that somewhere else. If you want a realistic look at anything start shooting 1000s of rounds downrange with these rifles, take them to the field for elephant, buffalo, bear, all sorts of other game, testing bullets both on the range, then in the field, then talk to me about realistic please. Until then, don't quote "realistic" to me.

My rifles and cartridges are not for everyone, they are for me, for others maybe not and that is just dandy, as I have nothing to sell anyone, period. This is not my job, I make no money from them, and don't want any or looking for any in the future. I have a job already, don't need another.

COuple of other things, neck and shoulders are not an issue, in fact, they don't even need a shoulder at all. I use nothing but Winchester M70 control feed guns, the extractor does all the work. Brass, 375 RUM brass is pretty available, and cheap too, been buying them from Midway 500 at a time for about $0.75 each. 500 MDM brass is available from Quality Cartridge, basic brass made by Hornady. Same brass that the ARs are done with, and the other B&Ms are done with, available, in fact I have over 500 pieces of that myself. Plenty of proven bullets, as much variety as .510 when it comes to quality bullets. And growing by the week! Actions! Yep, got me there. I don't have a clue as to what other actions a 500 MDM might work with, or for that matter the 50 B&M and the rest of the WSM series. But the 500 MDM calls home those Winchester M70s chambered in the RUMs. All the 50-458-416-375-9.3-new 475-410 B&M all call home a Win M70 WSM action. Very available. Other rifles? Don't know, and personally don't care.

Sub 9# rifle is no challenge at all keeping in one piece shooting 550s at 2200. Accurate Innovations stocks do that with ease. The aluminum chassis that the action sits in absorbs all the recoil. I have one in Myrtle that has had 600 plus rounds thru it, one in claro that has about the same number of rounds thru it, and a new one in english that might have only about 200 rounds thru it, no broke stocks. Now that is not true with the stocks that come on the rifles, I busted two of them before giving up. Put the AI stocks on, no more problems. The Myrtle gun and the claro gun weight 8.25 lbs and the english 8.75 lbs total weight, all fit with 21 inch 1:12 PacNor barrels.

So no challenge there. Now if that is not for you, fine and dandy. You don't need one. But I will be truthful with you, I take the little "Realistic" comment a little offensive, as in replying "I am not realistic"? Other comments, maybe you just need an education. In addition to that up on Alaska concerning the "Short Rifles" on the thread about 50s on bears, then our friend Busheler joined. Your comments there were "when the short rifles dropped in you dropped out" Well I promptly apologize for your offense at my "short Rifles" and I removed every photo of them, every comment made by me on that thread so as to not be offensive to you on "your" thread.

Thank you

Michael

I've only been on AR a short while.
But I didn't fall of the big bore truck yesterday, having fired 1000s of 500g+ bullets myself. I don't find that unusual.

In my short time here, Michael, I find you are "a little offended" any time someone questions or comments on your work. We all get an opinion, get over it.

I am easily annoyed, hard to offend.

Care to add anything on the .500A2 with an 18" barrel?

quote:

Originally posted by PC:
I was wanting to run the 570 gr woodleigh at say 2300 fps.

PC, sorry I missed the load data request first time around. Here is my load data from a 21" 505/416 with virtually the same powder capacity as the 500 A2. Both are mild loads in my .505 case and my gun..not so mild on my shoulder in the original 9# rifle. The 19" rifle was just a few fps off these numbers. 24" only a few fps better. I was looking for a sweet spot on the 21". Been awhile since I built those guns so I had forgotten that fact. But didn't see enough difference between 19 and 21 to matter really.

From a 21" PacNor barrel, 525gr Woodleigh soft, SD .294....2362fps average with 100grs of H4895. 91# of recoil in my rifle. (Same weight rifle in a 458 WM will have 61# of recoil. a 416 RM , 400 @ 2400, 56# of recoil by the numbers)

SD is 6.7,
CV .37%
MAD 8.8,
ES 25fps....in 20 rounds

From 96 grains of H4895, 600 grain Woodleigh PP soft, SD .336...............2210fps average.

100# of recoil in my rifle.
SD is 9.8
CV .53%
MAD 9.8
ES 23fps......in 20 rounds

Your numbers with a 10.5# rifle should give 87# of recoil, 9.5# rifle, 96# of recoil.

PC,
switch to a faster powder than you think .. and you can burn less of it .. Danny Pedersen told me anything past 19" on a 510wells (and he would know) is just extra weight

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:
Thanks Jim. How much powder burnt is part of the recoil impulse but at some point 500 and 600 gr bullets start to get your attention if pushed fast enough.

500s at 2100fps isn't a bad load...but I'll pass on a 7/12 # rifle. I've seen your and Michael's comments in past threads.

Here is a realistic look...with lots of video by a good hand on a big bore.

http://www.470mbogo.com/RecoilVideo.html

RDB,

I’ve previously seen the video; but I’ve also personally seen the light weight big bores handled just as well.

I understand you’re prospective; a long large-capacity cartridge with heavy for caliber traditional C&C FMJ bullet…definitely requires a large long action to handle the cartridge. Also burns a lot of powder due to case volume to hit your target 600gr bullet @ 2200+ fps. I do admit, I have no desire to fire your .505/416 Rigby cartridge in a 7 ½ lb rifle either.

Fortunately big bores are comprised of many case volumes, lengths, and bullet/bullet weight combinations and the AR Big Bore Forum is comprised of many personalities who gravitate to cartridges somewhere within this conglomeration. I don’t fault anyone’s cartridge selection just as I do not fault anyone who desires to use a 12lb dry weight rifle with 26” barrel, a sub- 7lb dry weight with 16” barrel, or a rifle somewhere in between; by dry weight I refer to a rifle sans rifle scope, sling, and loaded cartridges.

I own six M98 Mauser actions manufactured between 1909 and 1950. So my 50 caliber big bore cartridge selection will run amongst anything factory, wildcat, or semi-wildcat that’ll fit within a standard length M98 action regardless of modification required if the modifications still maintain the action safe for 62K-63K psi loadings. Fortunately, my action preference matches my personal preference of a cartridge being at bore or slightly under bore relative to the available gun powder, case size/length, powder capacity, and bullet availability.

As they say, "to each their own."

RDB

Well I suppose I take things more literal than intended. "Realistic" to me obviously has a different meaning to you than to myself. The comment made that "When the short rifles dropped in that you dropped out" must obviously mean something else to you, than to me, since it seemed directed at me. I need to get over nothing, as there is little to get over. Keep your opinions to yourself if you have nothing positive to add, I am not selling you anything, so why the smartass remarks. Be it far from me to think or state that you live in a box and have ventured outside that box very little. I can understand this very easily as I only recently stepped outside the box. If you like a 12 lb rifle to tote in the field, good for you, I don't tell you how Un-Realistic that is, or that "When RDBs big 12 lb guns show up, I must leave? I could care less if you want to carry a 12 lb rifle all day. So I think you should get over it, as it seems to be your problem, not mine. You keep doing what you do, I will most certainly keep doing what I do.

No, I have no comment on an 18 in 500 A2. My own 510 Wells, is a very large Ruger Mag Action, 24 inch barrel and 11 lbs. It ventures out no further than the range, which is only steps away. It's far to bulky, heavy, cumbersome, to even consider taking it to the field. I have no issues with short barrels, in fact a great advocate of said. I have paid little attention to the 510 Wells in the last few years, just does not fit my needs. Guns too big, rifles too heavy, too cumbersome for me personally, anyone else that likes to carry them, fine by me. I choose a different path than most, and will never be satisfied just following the same old crowd! Have fun RDB, and welcome to AR by the way! Where are you from, you really should put at least what part of the world you might be coming from? In the meantime, "Get over it".

Michael

"No, I have no comment on an 18 in 500 A2"

....got it, thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
PC,
switch to a faster powder than you think .. and you can burn less of it .. Danny Pedersen told me anything past 19" on a 510wells (and he would know) is just extra weight

Jeffo what powder ? I was thinking Varget... I'm going to go 18" or 19" for the barrel. I am thinking now 535 gr pills at 2300 to 2400 will be adequate, this to be a handy fungun.....and a little different due to the components I am choosing to use