The 450/400 seems to be a little weak. According to Hornady's ballistics table it only has 3,732 foot pounds at the muzzle while the .375 H7H has 4,263.
Where a .375 is the minimum for dangerous game the 450/400 would not seem to qualify.
Yet it is apparently used for elephant and buffalo regularly. I know little about ballistics so there is clearly something here I don't understand.

It pushes a heavier, wider bullet at a lower velocity. Lower velocities will often increase the penetration (as long as the velocity is not to low).
Sometimes it is not all about number in a reloading book.

This being said, it is just my opinion as I have never shot a buff or a elephant with either caliber.

Nitro Express ballistics usually pale in comparison to 'magnum' ballistics, but they've been proven effective over the years.

George

quote:

Originally posted by R. G. Howard:
The 450/400 seems to be a little weak. According to Hornady's ballistics table it only has 3,732 foot pounds at the muzzle while the .375 H7H has 4,263.
Where a .375 is the minimum for dangerous game the 450/400 would not seem to qualify.
Yet it is apparently used for elephant and buffalo regularly. I know little about ballistics so there is clearly something here I don't understand.

The great Pondoro Taylor placed the 450/400 as one of the best all rounders for large dangerous game hunting. He and others of his ilk have nothing but praise for this cartridge.

The 404J was designed as it's equivalent in a bolt gun and in the original factory loading duplicating the 450/400 ballistics, the 404J also came to be regarded as one of the best balanced cartridges for African big game.

With modern bullets and powders the 404J can now be loaded up to much higher spec if wanted, although probably not needed, and I would imagine the 450/400 could also be improved just with modern premium bullets.

If I was wanting a double, the 450/400 would certainly be my choice.

quote:

Originally posted by R. G. Howard:
The 450/400 seems to be a little weak. According to Hornady's ballistics table it only has 3,732 foot pounds at the muzzle while the .375 H7H has 4,263.
Where a .375 is the minimum for dangerous game the 450/400 would not seem to qualify.
Yet it is apparently used for elephant and buffalo regularly. I know little about ballistics so there is clearly something here I don't understand.

I guess you didn't like my answer in the Double Rifle forum.
If you hadn't read it, here is a link to the page - about half way down on page 2
The same answer

Damn Fine Cartridge usually found in Damn fine guns!-Rob

I 2nd the above recomendations having never set foot in Africa I can tell you that the 450-400 just plains rocks. I own many large bores 375,416's,458's and a 500 Jeffery. The 450-400 just plain gets it done with much less pain and fuss. My searcy double is the best rifle I own and if it wasn't for the fact that I need a scoped rifle for the long shots I get on Elk in wilderness area's it would be the only rifle I would need to hunt with.

Brad

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by R. G. Howard:
The 450/400 seems to be a little weak. According to Hornady's ballistics table it only has 3,732 foot pounds at the muzzle while the .375 H7H has 4,263.
Where a .375 is the minimum for dangerous game the 450/400 would not seem to qualify.
Yet it is apparently used for elephant and buffalo regularly. I know little about ballistics so there is clearly something here I don't understand.

The great Pondoro Taylor placed the 450/400 as one of the best all rounders for large dangerous game hunting. He and others of his ilk have nothing but praise for this cartridge.

The 404J was designed as it's equivalent in a bolt gun and in the original factory loading duplicating the 450/400 ballistics, the 404J also came to be regarded as one of the best balanced cartridges for African big game.

With modern bullets and powders the 404J can now be loaded up to much higher spec if wanted, although probably not needed, and I would imagine the 450/400 could also be improved just with modern premium bullets.

If I was wanting a double, the 450/400 would certainly be my choice.

@eagle27

Indeed, the 450/400 is a fine cartridge. I'm using the cartridge 450/400 2 1/8 BPE with modern FCB (FullCopperBullets) Gian-Marchet and I'm more then happy.

Here the Google Translation of the German Page Gian-Marchet cartridge 10,3x60R aka .450/400 2 1/8 BPE

Good shooting and good hunting
Collani

CCMDoc. Sorry, I did not see your answer on the double rifle forum. In fact, I thought my question didn't get posted so I repeated it here.
Anyway, what I'm hearing is that muzzle energy isn't the whole story. A 40 caliber 400 grn bullet, although generating less muzzle energy that the .375, will still be more effective on a buffalo or an elephant than the .375. That's the part I was not getting because I was comparing calibers strictly on the basis of energy. I just bought a double .375 last year. Now I'll have to buy a 450/400.

quote:

Originally posted by R. G. Howard:
CCMDoc. Sorry, I did not see your answer on the double rifle forum. In fact, I thought my question didn't get posted so I repeated it here.
Anyway, what I'm hearing is that muzzle energy isn't the whole story. A 40 caliber 400 grn bullet, although generating less muzzle energy that the .375, will still be more effective on a buffalo or an elephant than the .375. That's the part I was not getting because I was comparing calibers strictly on the basis of energy. I just bought a double .375 last year. Now I'll have to buy a 450/400.

Don't be sorry - I was an ass for posting in that fashion and should have simply left it as "See here" to point to my response on DR forum.

In any event, both your 375 and the 450/400 seem to be "good enough to get the job done" on the bigger dangerous African game per the experts.

Stay well,
Paul

RG Howard--

A little more on the rationale: Energy figures favor velocity (the formula, if I recall correctly, is bullet weight in grains x velocity in fps squared, divided by 450,200). Works fine for smaller bores used on smaller game, but seems to leave something to be desired for the big, slow penetrators.

quote:

Originally posted by whiteeagle:
RG Howard--

A little more on the rationale: Energy figures favor velocity (the formula, if I recall correctly, is bullet weight in grains x velocity in fps squared, divided by 450,200). Works fine for smaller bores used on smaller game, but seems to leave something to be desired for the big, slow penetrators.

The oft quote Taylor "knock out values" went someway to providing a comparative method for the performance of big bores on dangerous game. This was simply the bullet momentum (M x V) multiplied by the bullet diameter in inches. It obviously reflects the generally accepted theory that the heavier and bigger the bullet the harder it hits (momentum). The velocities of the big bores of his day were all around the 2000 - 2400 fps so this part of the equation did not play as much apart as did weight and diameter.

Of course his formula was specifically related to the knock down effect of a head shot to a charging animal although most agree that given proper bullets, it is still a reasonable measure of the effectiveness of big bores on dangerous game in general i.e. the bigger the better.
Taylor was first to admit that his formula did not recognise so well the "shock" effect of smaller bores such as the 375H&H.

I own both the 450/400 and its equivalent the 404 Jeffery. Both are a joy to shoot, after a practice session with them you don't feel like you've boxed for 10 rounds.

My 10.75x68 loaded with 400gr AFrames to 2150fps has about the same ballistics as the original .404 Jeffery and the 450/400. It performed well on Mozambique buff this month.