Still having trouble with those pesky, maneating trees. RGB and Macifej's bullets - totally unacceptable. Complete penetration and unrecoverable. How the heck am I supposed to measure compression? Useless!

Anyway, some fun pics. Fired a sampling of Kodiaks, GSC, Macifej's and Rob's ware.

Here is my little brother standing next to man-eating tree. The tree cooperated by wearing some targets:



The solids of any manufacture were nowhere to be found - the berm backstop is probably rich with brass and copper but I wasn't goin' lookin'.

Behind the target tree are some underling man-eaters in the making. Here is a Kodiak which fully penetrated "Poppa" tree and is lodged on the off-side:







And a sapling that just couldnt get out of the way fast enough but hid instead behind "Poppa"



Oh, and my dad playing with the 585AHR on the Shooting tripod I picked up at Gander Mountain on the way upstate



Recovered Kodiak - note the non-expansion:

That the Alaska bullet works bullet?
Cool pics!

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
That the Alaska bullet works bullet?
Cool pics!

Hey Jeffe,

I got them through Wayne of AHR fame - I'm not certain where he sources them but I think you are correct.

You guys need a tougher target ...

Wow…

ABW really toughened up the Kodiak…

I had some of the older batch that wouldn't hold together...

quote:

Originally posted by trophyhunter5000:
Wow…

ABW really toughened up the Kodiak…

I had some of the older batch that wouldn't hold together...

Or the trees here are just plain saps!

Doc:

Can you compare and contrast the .585 and .600 for us? Which one do you like better and why? Do both guns weigh about the sam? How much do they weigh? How would you compare the recoil? I would be interested in any information you could pass along

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Doc:

Can you compare and contrast the .585 and .600 for us? Which one do you like better and why? Do both guns weigh about the sam? How much do they weigh? How would you compare the recoil? I would be interested in any information you could pass along

Hi Dave,
Tough questions believe it or not.

Weight:
Originally, my 600 weighed 13lbs. After getting the 585 at 11.5 lbs and feeling the difference in heft and shooting it a bit, I had Wayne at AHR lighten the 600 to 11 lbs, so now both rifles are essentially the same (loaded).

At 13lbs, felt recoil of full-power, 900gr 600OverKill loads (without the muzzle brake) was subtantially less than at it's current weight. With the muzzle brake - I'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between 13 and 11 lbs using the same loads.

Recoil is less with the typical 585AHR loads than typoical 600OK loads. Lighter bullets, lighter powder charges = lighter recoil. Now if I use one of RGB's 730gr hole-punching solids, recoil is comparable to the 585AHR with 750gr Woodleighs to within a gnat's whiskers - muzzle brake or not.

BUT if we're talking about light bullets-for-caliber, using 650gr Woodleigh BP softs in the 585AHR is damn near pleasurable as far as recoil AND these make a big hole/cause a big mess in semi-soft objects (like mellons, water jugs, etc.) and they are pretty inexpensive comparatively speaking.

Second, I believe that the selection of .585 bullets is greater than that for the 600. Search the major suppliers for either .585 or 577NE vs. 600NE or .620 and you'll see what I mean. That isnt important to me becuase I have Robgunbuilder, Macifej and Bitterroot supply me with all sorts of fun, incredible and accurate projectiles in both calibers. Other sources for both include the common over the counter suppliers as well as GCS.

Loading either takes a little more care than the run of the mill 308 - easier to collapse a neck on either round than on any deer caliber I've loaded. Having said that, I have my 9 year old daughter seat the bullets for both and she has never collapsed a neck while I have.

Slightly less expensive to load the 585 than 600 - less powder, less expensive bullets but we're talking a few dollars at most.

You didn't ask about the rifles themselves but both are AHR built and excellent in every respect. Both rounds and rifles are extremely accurate when we do our part - as usual, I did my "three rounds as fast as I can" routine (showing off to dad and brother) with both and three rounds were touching in the black at 50 yards in each case.

"Which do I like better and why?" Arrrrggggghhhh!

OK, best way I can answer is to answer a different question: "Which one would I have built for me if I were having an African DGR built?"
The 600 Overkill.
"Why?"
Well, if I am going to have a 585, why not just go up a notch and get the 600. Plus I like the mystique of the 600. No other good reason, though.

If, though, I were going to have but one rifle built and plan to take it to Africa for DG, to Alaska for Brown Bear and use it on other American big game including medium game like our whitetail deer - I would choose the 585.

Why?

I'd have it built even lighter than 11lbs, shoot the really light, "exploding" bullets for fun and practice and not feel too silly showing up to deer camp. OK - I would still get a load of sh-t for showing up to deer camp but only until I brought out an already gutted and skinned buck!

Yup, I know, not helpful at all but thats the best I can do.

Thanks Doc. That was a great help. You have some real insight here. To the best of my knowledge, you might be the only guy that has both guns and can shoot them side buy side. I toyed with the idea of building a .580 AHR or a .600 but have been then I got sidetracked buy a couple of doubles. I am still toying with the idea though. I guess I am leaning toward a .585 mostly because they can be built a little lighter and they have more than enough power and penetration for even an elephant.

quote:

Or the trees here are just plain saps!

I never thought of that ...

*Speechless*

That penetration is amazing!!! You NEED to make some VIDEOS!!!

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
OK, best way I can answer is to answer a different question: "Which one would I have built for me if I were having an African DGR built?"
The 600 Overkill.
"Why?"
Well, if I am going to have a 585, why not just go up a notch and get the 600. Plus I like the mystique of the 600. No other good reason, though.

If, though, I were going to have but one rifle built and plan to take it to Africa for DG, to Alaska for Brown Bear and use it on other American big game including medium game like our whitetail deer - I would choose the 585.

Doc nails it exactly.Addreses the favourite argument of each side.

The 600 has the bragging rights in general.
The 585 still looks okay, but suits splattering small game better, for those of who like to use it for everything.

While the 600 can 'do everything the 585 can', it tends not to occur as much.
For example there are dedicated 585 nuts out there who actually used 585's as oversized 375's with 650gn and 750 barnes-x(aka all round guns).I am one of them

Karl.

Karl- You need a .600Ok! Once you've tried it you'll never go back!-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Karl- You need a .600Ok! Once you've tried it you'll never go back!-Rob

AGREED! ...Also,Great info Doc,Thanks! Now,if you want a good compromise and do hunt flesh n blood(not just trees/paper),then lighten it up even more,like I do to say,9pds unscoped,but braked and you will LUV it on the long stalks and mountain climbs! AND,WHO said 600s don't penetrate well

quote:

Originally posted by SAFARIKID:

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Karl- You need a .600Ok! Once you've tried it you'll never go back!-Rob

AGREED! ...Also,Great info Doc,Thanks! Now,if you want a good compromise and do hunt flesh n blood(not just trees/paper),then lighten it up even more,like I do to say,9pds unscoped,but braked and you will LUV it on the long stalks and mountain climbs! AND,WHO said 600s don't penetrate well

Tom:
I think the .600 Nitro suffered from the same bad bullets the 458 Win did.

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Karl- You need a .600Ok! Once you've tried it you'll never go back!-Rob

Rob,
I can't fault loving the bigger gun, but the difference is not enough for me to break a longstanding affair.
Now your 12GaFH on the double or if Ed can fix it into the PH would have all my other bigbores out on the street the next day

Karl.

Karl- Its time for a new relationship!
GS- Penetration of 900 gr solids out of the .600Ok just has to be seen to be believed. I used to split 24 inch solid oak logs with mine as a bonus! Way cheaper than renting a Hydraulic log splitter and way more fun!-Rob

GS....You are somewhat correct on the bullets being "bad"....Its not the bullets fault if we over push it...The Woodleigh Softs were not designed to go over 1900fps....I was pushing them a easy 2100 and case in point...We were having lunch in the midday shade on a Buffalo Hunt in Tanzania,and out of nowhere a Huge Warthog appears not 20 yds from me!He had 13 1/2" tusk,so I just had to nail him.I shot him quartering at me in his chest with a 900 gr soft Woody....It lterally lifting him off his feet and knocked him back! ..Dead as a doornail and guess what,the bullet traveled to his rear opposite hip/rump and Never came out! ...poor lil porker absorbed it all..The insides were devastated and the bullet came apart in several pieces....Now if I would have hit him with a solid,or at a slower velocity,I am sure it would have whistled off into the distance!...Solution is use the Solid Copper "X" type bullets AHR and Rob makes if you want penetration at High Velocity

Take your Pick....Light Weight 600OK or 500 Jeffery...

quote:

The Woodleigh Softs were not designed to go over 1900fps....

Ditto, amen, etc...

The recomended impact velocity range on the Woddies for the .620 is too much on the high side (2000 -- 1700 fps)...

I've slowed mine down to starting velocity of 1925...

They penetrate farther and still open up nicely but do not pancake out like they do at higher speeds...

Matt

Yes if you want the max in penetration and some expansion, then the Copper cup point bore riders from my experiments seem to be the best compromise. They penetrate beyond what anyone would expect from a .600 and will expand somewhat, so you get an even BIGGER hole. Most critter react like Safarikids Warthog though and simply die HARD. -Rob

HERE IS THE 900GR WOODLEIGH LOADED BACKWARDS....TALK ABOUT A MEAN "BITCHSLAP"!