My Left Hand Winchester M70 arrived the other day. It is currently a 300 win mag. I purchased it because I always wanted a Big Bore based on the M70 action. I already have a Turkish walnut blank. I would be replacing the bottom metal & extractor.I plan on using New England fixed sights . It would be a "Classic" style gun.

Now, here is my question.Which big bore would make the most sense for me? I will eventually take it to Africa, but with curent costs a Cape Buff Hunt would be a once in a lifetime trip. I love to shoot & reload so I am sure I'd shoot it from time to time. I am torn between making a 375HH, a 404 or maybe even a 458 Lott. What would you pick & why?

I would go with the 375 H&H. The old three seven five just is more of an "all-around" cartridge than the Jeffery or the Lott. Don't get me wrong I am longing for a nice 404 on a Mauser action.

Would you hunt with it in the states? If so, what and where?

375 makes a lot of sense for N. American game with the occasional trip to Africa. However, a .458 lott can be a lot of fun (sorry 'bout the pun).

John

I would not need to hunt with this rifle in the states..........but I probably would take it out from time to time, just for fun. I have plenty of other rifles that fully encompass any of my North Ameriacan hunting needs from varmints up to big bears.

A big bore is just something I'd like to own. I just seem to go round & round on the caliber. But I guess that is part of the fun

I do agree that the 375 seems to be the most practical. But I already own a 375 (Browning A-Bolt SS) Although having a CRF 375 would be a nice addition. And making it off my own action would allow me to make it nicer than just buying a stock LH 375 M70 (if I could even find one at this point) But I am really torn with going bigger.

I do not need to be practical with this rifle......so the 404 & 458 LOTT are really appealing to me. I do not want a muzzle brake. I HAte the noise. So my main concern with the LOTT is recoil. I have never shot one as of yet. I have no problem shooting my 7 lb. 375 HH but I am sure a 10 lb Lott with 500 grain bullets @ 2100-2150 FPS would be an entirely new animal. I'd handload for these velocities & keep the pressure down. Ideally I'd find someone in my area with a LOTT that I could shoot first. The 404 seems like it would be on par with my light weight 375 in the recoil department.

Additionally, what would be the best barrel contours for each caliber respectively? 375, 404 & 458 Lott. I'd like to make the rifle more clean than bulky. With a 22-23" barrel. I do not like HUGE barrel look like I've seen on the Ruger Tropical Number 1s. I know teh added weight can help with recoil........but I'd rather go with mercury recoil reducers in the butt stock than have a huge stove pipe looking barel.

Again, any thoughts? MAybe even additional caliber ideas?

I recently built a 404 on a Model 70 and used the PAC-NOR #3 contour barrel. It is a very pleasant rifle to shoot, much more so than the LOTT, with recoil not much different than the 375. "Real" 404 brass is expensive but they can easily be made from 375 RUM brass for casual shooting and load workup. The one big drawback to the 404 is the cost of the dies, RCBS will be $250 and CH-4D will be $150. I sure like mine!

416 rem mag , 416 taylor both very good rounds I think the 416s are a very good calibers for something in between 375 and the really big boomers.

If you already have the best calibre for what you describe (375h&H) why not go with it again in new gun - you can shoot alot (whihc is what really counts) relatively cheaply and be confident in the gun. the 400's kick a lot more and cost a lot more to shoot and this probably means you will shoot less.

458 Lott, without any doubt. You can handload it with cast bullets to 45-70 Trapdoor specs and let your jrhi kids shoot it all day. look at 350gr Hornady loads, look at 400gr Speer loads, look at the 500gr tuff. As I once told my brother when comparing his hot-rod! 357 Magnum: I can always download my 44 Magnum to that level. The bigger the hole going in, the quicker the animal dies. If you shoot a cape buff with a 375 nine times out of ten your PH is going to put a bullet in it too.
JMHO

Rich

Masterifleman:
to the best of my knowledge Clint Smith has never shot anybody with a pistol or a rifle. If indeed, you follow that bit of sage advice, you will likely never get to a rifle. Finish the job with the pistol, and stay focused on the task at hand. Just a bit of advice from someone who has been in that arena a few times.

regards,

Rich

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
"If you shoot a cape buff with a 375 nine times out of ten your PH is going to put a bullet in it too."

Sorry IdahoSharpshooter but that statement is bull pucky! Me thinks you exagerate on this.
Having taken a couple of hand fulls of cape buff with the 375 H&H, Ican say that none required the PH to get involved in any way. Could it happen? Of course t can but it can also happen with any other caliber you can name.

JMHO!

465H&H

I would suggest the 416 Taylor. It is easy to shoot, has plenty of horsepower, is easy to load for with modest priced components and is easily handled by your action. I think the Lott is a great cartidge but just a little potent for recreational shooting. You can load 300 grains in the Taylor and use it for whitetails. I think it is a great cartridge!

First off, you want a big bore. Don't get stuck under .40" else you'll be right back here in two years. If you watned another 375 H&H you're thread title would've been different.
If you aren't into wildcats, and like the nostalgia, I'd go for the 404J. A 400g at 2350 qualifies as big bore in most books, and it's a nice classy round. If you don't mind newness, and you realyl want something big, I'd go Lott or bigger. The H&H case can take the .475" bullet no problem, and the Capstick has a nice name. You can get a 500g close to 2400 fps almost as easily as the 416 Rem does with 400g. (File comments about Africa, heat and pressure all into grain-of-salt bin.)
Best of both worlds might be the 465 H&H. You get the classy name, new cartridge, big bullets, low pressure, moderate kick, and a handloader would have no problem overtaking Lott speeds.
And "H&H" goes with "Winchester" (in my eyes) like Adnams SSB goes with a 20oz mug!

[INCOMING! Jeffe: "How about the 458AR? No feeding problems nor mag and follower change, a bit more capacity than the Lott.... :P ]

I would go with either the 375 or 416 Taylor. If you wanted to go with a longer mag pick up a 375 H&H Leftie. You will have to have this action cut and reworked to stretch it out.

I just went through the same dilemna of trying to decide on a big bore.

I wanted a big bore, over 40 cal. Like you I already own a 375 H&H. I learned as much as I could and it came down to 404J, 416 Rigby, or a 458 Lott.

I ruled out the 458 Lott, strictly on personal bias. Big fat cigar shaped cartridges just seem to go hand in hand with rimmed cartridges and double rifles. I know that is being somewhat of a traditionalist. That is why the the original list did not include some of the other big bore cartridges.

So I decided on a the 416/423 caliber. After reading from the experienced on differnt boards I felt that the these would do anything and 458cal would do with a little less recoil.

It took me about a month of searching, but I came up with hardly used, CZ 550 Safari Mag Lux in 416 Rigby.

I had owned one of these in 375 H&H and really liked it except for the excessive weight. I think that extra weight will come in handy on the 416 Rigby cartridge.

Plan B was to save up and buy a CZ Safari Classic in 404J.

But if I am limited to the choices you listed in your original post. I would definitely pick the 404J.

I bought a 375 H&H in 2004 and can't see why everyone else in the world doesn't own one. Pleasant to shoot and accurate as hell.

I definitely wanted something that was traditional. So the Jeffery fills that bill. But it seems that components could be costly & hard to get from what I've read here. Who is the best source for bullets & brass? I see that Norma offers brass through Cabelas. And Dies are a special order affair. This doesn't rule it out, but it is something for me to consider.

The 416 is also tempting me. With my action, my first inclination is to go with the 416 rem....but not to traditional. I saw that Winchester offered the 416 Rigby through the custon shop. Does anyone know what they had to do with the M70 action to make this work? How hard would it be to convert my 300 win mag action over?

I would suspect it would be alot easier to get a 404J out of a 300 RUM chambering, feeding and all. I'm sure there's a dozen smiths in the US that could have a good go at it, though.
Consider that the dies will be a one-time purchase, and brass doesn't go that quick in a rifle like this, so factor the costs into your buff hunt and call it good! Not sure what the supply is like in your arean, but you may be able to get a hold of a 416 Rem already setup. Play with it for a while, and if/when you go to rebarrel to 404 there will be less to do; might even want to rebore factory bbl and save some $$.
Or, sell your M70 for what you paid, get a CZ Rigby, and later on when you realize how small a .416" bullet is, you can swap the bbl for a 470 Mbogo!
;-)

Remember guys..........he is a leftie and companies like CZ do not make a long leftie action.

Snowolfe

You point out an important fact. Because I shoot left handed my "standard" options are not that great. And with the demise of Winchester the selection has gotten even smaller. That is why I bought what I could find to be the base rifle for this project, a Left HAnded m70 classic sporter 300 win mag. So it will be the base platform for what ever direction I decide to go.

On another note..........it is good to see that the steelers have fans out your way! Hope they can pull off the win for the bus!

.375 HH, no explanation needed.

Iron Buck, I was born and raised in Steeler country. Have you considered a Montan 1999? I just ordered a stainless leftie in 416 Rem for $900.

.375 Belted Rimless Magnum Nitro-Express Holland is a perfect 'client' cartrigde. Reasons: cartridge shape, inherent accuracy, versitility, and favorable relative recoil factor. That bigger stuff is in 'PH' category.

I would suggest the .375 H&H or the .458 Lott to keep the conversion costs down. You will not need to open up the bolt face and it will require less work on the feed rails than a 404 Jeffery, which will also require opening up the bolt face and changing the magazine box for the new cartridge geometry. Also, ammo for both is less expensive and more readily available.

To alter your action you would either need a new magazine box or have the blocker in yours machined out. The rear of the action would have to be cut out and one of the scope mount holes would have to relocated. Add a new ejector and changes to the bolt stop. Not serious changes but it is still easier to start with a leftie in 375.

The 375H&H is the most versitile cartridge in the world and one of my favorites.

I'm not a huge fan of the large medium bore 400's for no particular reason, except the 450/400's, wish I owned a double rifle in either the 3" or the 3 1/4" versions.

Big Bores start at 45 cal.

If you want versatility, go with a 375H&H, you just can't go wrong with it. If you want a big bore to have fun shooting and someday take to Africa, make your rifle a 458WM. Easy conversion, and, with todays powders, plenty of power and penetration for buff and elephant. As mentioned about the Lott, the 458 can be loaded to 45/70 levels or beyond 2150 fps with 500 grainers for Africa.

Have fun with your freinds at the range - shoot a magazine full of lightly loaded 350 grainers and then fill the magazine with full house 500 grainers and hand the rifle over. You will astonish your buddies with your "recoil tolerance" versus their recoil intolerance!

JPK

A lot depends on how much you want to pay for the finished rifle.

The 458Win and 458 Lott would be no brainers because the cases are the same diameter as the 300WM. The 458 Win is the same length. The Lott being a bit more complex because of the added length, but would be easier than the 416 Rem which has a larger diameter.

If you want to be conservative, I'd suggest the 416 Taylor. I have a rifle in its ballistic twin, the 425 Express, and it is quite satisfactory. It will push a 400 grain bullet as fast as you are likely to want to shoot it, around 2400fps).

To chamber the 375 in the M70 action requires more tinkering with the magazine and feed, and this requires expertise.

I'd stay away from the 404 because of the issues with varying chamber sizes. If you want to go that route, have someone like C & H make a reamer and then made dies.

I believe that the 458 would be my choice, because like you, I have a 375HH. Quite versatile here with loading down a good woods rifle, or load it up for Africa or Alaska. Kudude

quote:

Originally posted by kudude:
[...]but would be easier than the 416 Rem which has a larger diameter.

[...]To chamber the 375 in the M70 action requires more tinkering with the magazine and feed, and this requires expertise.
Kudude

nope and nope

I forgot about the leftie part. In that case, I'd say definitely consider the 465 H&H.

I have to vote for the Lott. I have both the 375H&H and the Lott. You will never hear me say a bad word about the 375, I love it. The Lott can be Loaded from 300gr to 500gr bullets. The 405 Rem is about $65 per 500 so cheap and useful
bullets are to be had. Federal 458Lott will be out in March and they tell me a TXS load is to follow so more factory ammo is on the way. A 350gr X would be a good light load and a 500TXS
or Solid a Buff stopper. So that is why I vote for the Lott.
Gene

Lots of good input......it really keeps me thinking. I will be going to a gun show Saturday where the gunsmith ( GAry Stiles) doing my Mauser 35 Whelen will be. I'll talk with him & get his advice regarding any required action work per each conversion. He could easily handle any direction I'd wish to go.

I could be wrong but I thought the 300 win mag M70 action that I have was already long enough to handle a 375HH length based cartridge with no modifications to magazine box or follower. Maybe the 458 Lott would need some follower work.........but I thought the box was already long enough for it. Does anyone here know for sure?

I am not familiar with the 465 HH. Is that a rimmed cartridge for double rifles or is it a belted magnum?

I´d gowith a .404 or a .416 Rigby. Both are easy to manage and components are available. A good friend just built a .500J and that one is a classic!

The Lott just doesn´t have the right nostalgia, nothing wrong with it though.

And why do you need to .375´s? The CRF issue has been blown way out of proportion. I own both PF and CRF rifles and they all work well.

I see that there is a magazine block in my LH M70 action. But the overall available length is enough to accomadate a 375 based cartridge.......nothing would need to be reworked on the action itself, just open up the box.

I already have a 375HH LEFT HAND push feed. I state left hand again because as this topic continues some responses show that they do not understand the left hand shooting dilema ............there is little to no choice in an affordable big bore.

I have both push feed & CRF actions. I have never hunted Africa YET but I will some day. BAsed upon the input here from people with lots of African hunting experience, and even PHs, I am convinced that a rifle for the purpose of hunting dangerous game is better off being CRF. So that is the direction I will go with this project.

Bwana-be,
Mea culpa. You are absolutely right on the case dimenions of the 375 and 416; however, as Iron Buck mentioned, there is a block in the magazine well of the 300WM (and 7mmRM) which would have to be removed.

There would have to be some careful tuning of the action for reliable feeding, but this would be required with any conversion. Kudude

Iron Buck,

I worked my way up from a 375HH to a 416 Rigby and then 458 Lott after that.

You have a 375, I can't imagine if you want a Big Bore why you would want to acquire a ditto of what you already have, so I'd drop the 2nd 375 recommendations.

A 416RemMag get's you into the Big Bore club and it should be an easy conversion. The 416RemMag and is definitely a step up from a 375HH but not a huge step and IMHO its case is a shade shy on capacity. In terms of effective cartridge spacing for your rack of rifles, I'd keep going further into Big Bore Territory.

A 416 Rigby loaded up approaches the 416 Weatherby if you feel like taking the abuse, but the costs of reworking your M70 will be quite high, you rarely rarely see a 416 Rigby in an M-70 and with good reason.

I would recommend the 458 Lott. Conversion will be much easier and you will have a seat squarely in the middle of the Big Bore Club with no apologies to anyone.

You can always "throttle back" the 458 Lott down to 404 Jeffrey performance or 416ish performance, or drop it even lower for plinking, or kick it up to full strength for kicking ass. If you get over to Africa, then your 375HH and 458 Lott would be a great, balanced 2 rifle battery for DG and you could always shoot locally acquired 458WinMags in it if you got into a pinch.

Finding someone with a 458 Lott would be a wise thing to do before buying one to make sure it is right for you; however, make sure you experience it with more than just the full strength 2350fps 500 grain loads which are a bit intense. Make sure the person who has the 458 Lott brings a full cross section of ammo so you can see just how versatile this round is....
300grs at 1900fps (45-70 level), 400grs at 2400fps (416ish), 450grs at 2100fps (404ish), 450grs at 2450fps (just plain frisky) or full strength 500 grs at 2350fps.

Inexpensive conversion, easy feeding with doable rail work, inexpensive components, wide selection of bullets, easy to load for, wide operating range. Very versatile and the Real Deal as a Big Bore.

BTW, regarding North American game, even with a 1.5x5 scope, it works just fine on elk.... SWAT.

EKM

375

The 458 Lott would be my choice, here is why.
With 500 grain bullets at 2150 you have an elephant,buff killer deluxe with minimal recoil. If recoil is not an issur you can load hotter if you want.
Here in the US with 400 or 450 grain bullets you have a great big bear, elk and moose rifle.
With 350 gr Hornady RN at any velocity from 1800 to 2350fps you have a great fun deer, pig, black bear over bait rifle.
So even if you only make one trip to Africa, you will have a rifle that will be a lot [sorry for the pun] of fun to shoot and hunt with.

.465 H&H is the .460 Wby opened up 7 or 8 1000ths to hold a .466 diameter bullet.

.400 H&H is full length .375 H&H brass opened to use .410 diameter bullet.

In the A-Square manuel see .400 Pondoro.
I think it's very similar.
This bullet can be had in very light pistol weight, it's the same as the .41 magnum revolver cartridge.
This may be the most usable design ever, tiny deer to ellie. depending on bullet choice.

Iron Buck stated:

quote:

I see that there is a magazine block in my LH M70 action. But the overall available length is enough to accomadate a 375 based cartridge.......nothing would need to be reworked on the action itself, just open up the box.

I replaced the magazine in my 300 win mag and replaced it with a 375 magazine. ( I load the 300 to an OAL of 3.475) This was a pop out, pop in operation. I had to file the extractor to funcion properly with the longer cartridge.

Thanks for that input. Did you get the replacement magazine box from Winchester or an aftermarket supplier?

With Winchesters woes, if it came from them I'd want to order it now. Thanks!

Not sure, my gunshop had it in stock, I will check and see where it came from. Will post it on monday.