Hi
I'm wondering for those of you who have shot cape buffalo, or elephant with a .510 based bullet, 500 NE, 510 Wells, etc. what bullet weight, velocity, and design you used to get full penetration on buffalo?
Texas Heart shots are also a concern. Would like full penetration from that angle.

Again, what bullets, solids, at what velocity assures end to end on a cape buffalo, and penetrates enough for elephant?

Thanks

GS

I have gotten 72" of penetration using a 500 NE with a 550 grain Bridger flat nose solid. However, that is not enough penetration to exit. GS Custom 570 grain FN solids come very close and the difference between the two bullets is probably statistically insignificant.

wanting penetration? flat point solids
bullet weight? 535 to 600
jeffe

Thanks.
Any animal reports? I've got this guy with a .50 Alaskan that thinks with 465 Grain Belt Mountain solids he's going to get 6 feet of buffalo.

GS

quote:

assures end to end on a cape buffalo,

That's a pretty tall order, as there are lots of variables involved (whether you hit spine, pelvis, rumen, etc, all come quickly to mind).

I don't have a direct answer to your question, but I can tell you about a recent experience with my 470 Mbogo and you may be able to extrapolate.

After I killed my third and last buff on my recent trip, Don_G and I did some penetration testing...he with his bow and me with my 470M.

I only had one 500gr Bridger FN Solid left, but I tried to do an end-to-end penetration test on the buffalo carcass. I shot it about halfway up the chest/neck. It clearly hit the spine, and probably travelled through it for a foot or more. The bullet was ultimately recovered about 2 inches under the hide on a hindquarter.

I don't know how many inches of buffalo that is, but considering the amount of spine it had to have traversed, I figure its pretty impressive.

Based on Dave E's (470Mbogo) penetration testing, I will guess that you'd be hard pressed to duplicate that shot with any of the standard 50's and get any better result. Hence my comment about being "assured" of full length, end-to-end penetration.

Just my 2c CDN,
Canuck

Canuck:
You bring up another issue.
Is the .470, with 500 grain bullets, at it's best?
Seems to me it should have a heavier bullet for penetration?
In other words, if the 458's are at their best, penetration wise, with a 500 grain bullet, by increasing to 470-475, and keeping the same bullet weight, aren't you decreasing penetration?

Seems a 540 or 550 grain bullet would be better for penetration then the 500's.

GS,
I have thought the same thing, but to be honest I am not sure. These 500gr Bridgers are a very LONG bullet, however.
Referring back to Dave E's penetration testing, the 500gr .475 bullets did pretty darn well against the others.
And don't forget, the 470Mbogo is pushing that 500gr solid significantly faster then most 458s.
Canuck

Bear in mind that the 470NE has a twist rate of 1:21" which is one of the slowest big bore twist rates. The 458s vary from 1:14" to 1:16" and a 500NE is at 1:15". Linearity and depth of the wound cahnnel with a 470NE, is better with the 500gr and 450gr FNs, than with heavier monometallic bullets that are more prone to tumbling.

Caunuck:
don't remember what the 470Mbogo is: 460 Weatherby necked up?
The only .510's I've shot are 570 grain soft points, in 500 Nitro Express, and, they reminded me of 'short-fat', and 525 grains LFNS/GC in my .500 Linebaugh max. Anyway, the Nitro Express cartridges, the 450 N2, and the .500, are the only ones I've worked with, or shot. I don't see any lack of room for powder and bullet in those big cases...
I just wonder if it isn't the old bullet makers dictating what they'll make, and, we all go along, since that's the only thing avaliable, without going custom???
As for Bridger, either use a denser material, or a longer bullet? One thing penetration tests have shown me, is there is rarely a substitute for bullet weight, when you are hitting big bones...
GS

quote:

don't remember what the 470Mbogo is: 460 Weatherby necked up?

Check out www.470mbogo.com for all the info. Its based on the 416 Rigby basic case, with a minimum neck and 35 deg shoulder.

Its also hell on cape buffalo.

Canuck

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
Bear in mind that the 470NE has a twist rate of 1:21" which is one of the slowest big bore twist rates. The 458s vary from 1:14" to 1:16" and a 500NE is at 1:15". Linearity and depth of the wound cahnnel with a 470NE, is better with the 500gr and 450gr FNs, than with heavier monometallic bullets that are more prone to tumbling.

Thank Gerard:
Didn't know that. How about heavier, nonmono solids?

GS

Personally I would rather use a slightly lighter monometallic solid at higher speed and be assured of a good result,


compared to a heavier bimetallic solid where results may or may not be what one expects.


My opinion is of course wildly biased in favour of certain manufacturers products.

I used the GSC FN .510/570gr at 2400 fps on a bison that weighed 1830 pounds on commercial scales after the blood loss.

This was from a .510/460Wby or 500A2 equivalent, my .510 JAB. The twist was 1:10".

The FN penetrated full length of body from rump to neck and exited. A second shot did the same. I was in bullet testing mode.

The Barnes XLC .510/570gr, at the same velocity from the same barrel of 10" twist, did not exit on broadside shoulder/chest shots, twice again, the initial shot, and the dead on the ground shot. The first FN brought the fleeing bison down for good, after that first XLC knocked him down but he got up and fled.

A GSC FN .416/380gr at 2500 fps exited my 1500 pound (est.) cape buffalo after a shoulder entrance through the left shoulder (humerus, heaviest thickness of bone in the whole buffalo) and went through the heart and out the other side, a one shot quick kill. Just for reference.

A GSC FN entrance, Botswana 2001:


The aftermath of GSC FN exits, "High Fenced" 2005, over eight feet of .510 caliber penetration on the run, Kentucky Heart Shot :

VIP standing on front end loader.
Taking picture of his own shadow.
Fresh meat.
Over 600 lbs in the freezer.

I have used a 600 grain Woodleigh solid at 2,200+ fps from my .500 A-Square on an elephant with good results.

But I will next use a 570 grain Barnes Monometal Flat Nosed Banded Solid at 2,450 fps. Penetration of the new Barnes truncated ogive, flat meplat solid is better than that achievable by RN solids, according to the data I have reviewed and results I have seen with my own eyes.

I will match the solid with the 570 grain Barnes TSX at the same or similar velocity - depends on POI - for first shoulder breaking and heart rending shots on buffalo.

Paper tests will be forthcoming as soon as the shoulder permits. Field tests are a year or two away, however.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
Personally I would rather use a slightly lighter monometallic solid at higher speed and be assured of a good result,


compared to a heavier bimetallic solid where results may or may not be what one expects.


My opinion is of course wildly biased in favour of certain manufacturers products.

NOW THAT'S FUNNY!!! I DON'T CARE WHO YOU ARE!!!

GS

Let's take this the next step. Robgunbuilder states in the ackley thread that a 500 grain soft, in .458, at 2400 fps, is a stopper, and penetrates enough to be devastating.

What weight softpoint do you need in .510, at what velocity, to produce such results on game???

Thanks
GS

PS
The real question becomes, at what caliber, and velocity, can you get a softpoint, or Barnes X type bullet, to penetrate far enough to be useable on elephants, and, Texas Heart shots on that cape buffalo the idiot with the .50 Alaskan just wounded???

GS,
A 570gr Woodleigh SP at 2450+ fps is definitely a "stopper", and noticeably more so than a 500gr 0.458" projectile. Do date the only 570gr Woodleighs SP I have recovered have been from frontal head shots. All broadside and quarter shots have exited. Of the 6 hearts hit all have exploded.

ScottS,
I agree.
A 570gr. Woodleigh at 2150(.500NE) for me-(that is, as soon as my rifle gets finished sometime next year-hehe).
But as far as penetration-just use solids and all is well. My only personal experience is with the .450-3 1/4, which is a good penetrator with solids on anything, but I am having daydreams of the .500 penetration with the same style Woodleighs as I use in the .450
At least I know I've read some pretty good tales(in books) of it doing excellent.
The SP's should give a good "wallop" on anything-more-so than the .450.
But as for 2450fps, I don't know, sometimes I think at higher velocity like that, the energy does weird things, counter-acting the desired effect. NOT to a large degree-just an un-noticeable amount. Unless it's Weatherby style, and then it is noticeable, that it goes somewhere, but nobody seems to know exactly where(the energy, that is).
I just like to keep mine at 2150. THAT velocity was a definate "proven" medicine in the "good-ol'-day's".

just a note from the Empire days: most all of the DR cartridges featured a 480 to 500gr bullet at 2150fps. My Krieghoff 500NE 3" used a 570gr bullet at 2160fps. I would suggest it appropriate that as one moves up about 12% in bore diameter to move up the same amount in bullet weight and hold the speed around there, or at a slight increase. That said, the 500gr at 2400 or so fps does seem to be a stone killer.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
Let's take this the next step. Robgunbuilder states in the ackley thread that a 500 grain soft, in .458, at 2400 fps, is a stopper, and penetrates enough to be devastating.

What weight softpoint do you need in .510, at what velocity, to produce such results on game???

Thanks
GS

PS
The real question becomes, at what caliber, and velocity, can you get a softpoint, or Barnes X type bullet, to penetrate far enough to be useable on elephants, and, Texas Heart shots on that cape buffalo the idiot with the .50 Alaskan just wounded???

Looks like your question has changed somewhat from the original. I don't think using a soft point on elphant is a very wise idea. While it would not be difficult to find a soft point to do the job on a broad side heart/lung shot what will you do if just before you take that perfect broadside shot the ele turns and charges you? If you have a soft point in your bolt rifle your in deep dodo. I don't think any soft point from and portable weapon can be counted on to make a Texas heart shot on an elephant. When a soft expands then hits the huge grass and water filled stomach it would be near impossible for it to get through to the vitals. Few solids can be counted on to do that.


465H&H

What about soft points on cape buffalo? Anyone tried 500 grain softs, in 50 caliber, at 2000 fps?

Thanks
GS

Buffalo is what I was referring to in my post. The Woodleighs work real well on elk too.

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
GS,
A 570gr Woodleigh SP at 2450+ fps is definitely a "stopper", and noticeably more so than a 500gr 0.458" projectile. Do date the only 570gr Woodleighs SP I have recovered have been from frontal head shots. All broadside and quarter shots have exited. Of the 6 hearts hit all have exploded.

ScottS: What rifle are you using??

GS

GS

I think the answer to your question is 619 gr. Everything else being equal, the constant you are after is sectional density. A 500 gr .458 bullet has an SD of 0.34. (Most people recommend a minimum SD of 0.30 for dangerous game penetration.) To have a SD of 0.34, a .510 inch diameter bullet must weigh 619 grains.

As an aside, a 500 gr .470 has a SD of 0.3234. A .458 bullet with an SD of 0.30 would weigh 440 grains. This is the reason a lot of people consider a 440 or 450 load better in a 458. The SD is adequate and the cartridge can get a significant boost in velocity.

quote:

Buffalo is what I was referring to in my post.

Buffalo = bison, I presume?

Cheers,
Canuck

Bolt action. Buffalo = bison, asianic, and cape.

I have had excellent results from 570gn woodleigh solids and poor results from the 570gn softs in my 500 nitro double

get yourself a 577 and you'll never have to worry about penetration or absolute stopping power ever again ! it will do all you will ever need and more. and it won't let you down either.

quote:

Originally posted by wombat:
I have had excellent results from 570gn woodleigh solids and poor results from the 570gn softs in my 500 nitro double

What was wrong with the softs?

quote:

Originally posted by Art S.:
GS

I think the answer to your question is 619 gr. Everything else being equal, the constant you are after is sectional density. A 500 gr .458 bullet has an SD of 0.34. (Most people recommend a minimum SD of 0.30 for dangerous game penetration.) To have a SD of 0.34, a .510 inch diameter bullet must weigh 619 grains.

As an aside, a 500 gr .470 has a SD of 0.3234. A .458 bullet with an SD of 0.30 would weigh 440 grains. This is the reason a lot of people consider a 440 or 450 load better in a 458. The SD is adequate and the cartridge can get a significant boost in velocity.

Art, great info. However, many have felt the 500 grain bullets in .458, just work better, despite the density, unless of course, you are Gerard. And, his bullets are long for caliber, so the SD is probably better then normal..

The .470 isn't known for being as good a penetrator as the .450 NE is it?

GS

GS, your bait worked. You knew I could not resist this. Those who extoll the virtues of SD are seeing something I do not see and this is troubling. Examining the comments from this thread alone, I see:

quote:

RIP says:
I used the FN .510/570gr at 2400 fps on a bison that ...penetrated full length of body from rump to neck and exited. A second shot did the same. The Barnes XLC .510/570gr, at the same velocity from the same barrel of 10" twist, did not exit on broadside shoulder/chest shots, twice again, the initial shot, and the dead on the ground shot.

Same SD for both bullets, but entirely different terminal performance results. Both good, but dictated by bullet construction not SD.

quote:

mrlexma says:
I have used a 600 grain Woodleigh solid at 2,200+ fps from my .500 A-Square on an elephant with good results.

But I will next use a 570 grain Barnes Monometal Flat Nosed Banded Solid at 2,450 fps. Penetration of the new Barnes truncated ogive, flat meplat solid is better than that achievable by RN solids, according to the data I have reviewed and results I have seen with my own eyes.

He is dropping in SD and is confident of improved terminal performance. His own test results proved the worth of bullet construction as an indicator of likely terminal performance, rather than SD.

quote:

ScottS says:
A 570gr Woodleigh SP at 2450+ fps is definitely a "stopper", and noticeably more so than a 500gr 0.458" projectile.

A 570gr .510 bullet has an SD of .313 while a 500gr .458 bullet comes in at a much higher SD of .341. So once again SD has little to do with the expected terminal performance.

quote:

walksfar says:
I agree. I am having daydreams of the .500 penetration with the same style Woodleighs as I use in the .450

The consensus seems to be that choices based on SD are irrelevant.

quote:

wombat says:
I have had excellent results from 570gn solids and poor results from the 570gn softs in my 500 nitro double

Identical SD but completely different terminal behaviour. More nails in the SD coffin!!

Gerard:
Just a bit of logic. I'm thinking BULLET WEIGHT. If you say the standard for stopping rifles starts at 2150 fps, with a 500 grain, .458 caliber bullet. Then using the .470 with the same weight bullet is going to decrease penetration.

If you get a genius like I know in another forum, he goes to a .510 caliber, 460 grain solid, and expects adequate penetration on Cape buffalo, and, ends up spending a lot of time chasing a buffalo who then takes something like 10 shots from the PH's .470, and, won't go down. PH couldn't get good shots, smart buffalo.

As has been stated earlier, to get comparable penetration, using a .50 caliber bullet, you need about 620 grains of bullet.

Thanks Art
"

Posted 29 September 2006 00:24
GS

I think the answer to your question is 619 gr. Everything else being equal, the constant you are after is sectional density. A 500 gr .458 bullet has an SD of 0.34. (Most people recommend a minimum SD of 0.30 for dangerous game penetration.) To have a SD of 0.34, a .510 inch diameter bullet must weigh 619 grains.

As an aside, a 500 gr .470 has a SD of 0.3234. A .458 bullet with an SD of 0.30 would weigh 440 grains. This is the reason a lot of people consider a 440 or 450 load better in a 458. The SD is adequate and the cartridge can get a significant boost in velocity."

Now, this is the part that makes no sense to me, and perhaps why Gerard attacks sectional density:
Sectional Density= Proportion of length to width, yet, it's most often calculated by bullet weight to
caliber?????????????

It should be calculated by dividing the width by the length. Gerard' bullets do have sectiona density, but, they need to figure bullet weight in addition. And Gerard, this is my next gripe. You can turn ANY kind of monometal on that lathe. You don't have to use relatively light monometals. In other words, you don't have to put all your horses in one coral. You could have a heavy line of bullets, made out of another metal, that would give you two bullet lines. There is certainly a market for heavy metal bullets. Look at the idiots trying to turn tiny cases into big game rounds, like the .50 Alaskan. Even lacking sectional density, if a bullet that weighs 460 grains, in .50 caliber, is made with a metal that makes that same bullet size weigh
620 grains, all of a sudden we have penetration we didn't have before. When guys are trying to compress powder in the Lott to get it to go 500 grains, at 2300 fps, a shorter bullet, would give them more room, and, still have the weight to penetrate.

You've clearly made the argument that it's not sectional density, as we currently calculate it, saying that your bullets can be made to go the same distance in penetration, by upping velocity. Some of us would be more comforted by a high density, heavy projectile, allowing more velocity, due to smaller size, but still having the bone smashing capability caused by weight.

Finally, some cases, given near the same max powder charge, like the .50 Alaskan, seem to like heavy bullets better. If more room was avaliable for powder, it's likely that case could well push a 570-600 grain bullet at the same velocity it pushes a 500 grain bullet. If you look at the reloading table for that caliber, as you go from 450 grain bullets, up to 525's, the powder capacity diminishes just a little, and, likewise, the bullet weight increase only creates a small decrease in velocity. With more powder, you might well be able to create the same speed with a 600 grain bullet you get from a 500 grain bullet. This would take penetration from marginal, to quite adequate.

gs

Just a minor correction:

470 bullet is .475 caliber usually, and a 500 grain 470 NE bullet has an SD of .317.

This is more than enough weight to the bullet when combined with the FN design to make it penetrate all that will ever be needed at 2150 fps.

The 470 NE does not suffer from a penetration deficit.

All big bores will penetrate less with poorly designed round nose solids than they do with flat noses.

GS,
Are you suggesting depleted uranium, tungsten, lead jacketed or what kind of bullets?

Anything over .3 SD is gravy as long as it doesn't make the monometal too long to be stable in the air or in the target for the given twist. In the target stability is pretty much impossibly related to twist, so best stay with the shorter bullet closest to .3 SD as possible.

Note the .510 GSC FN of 570 grain weight has SD = .313, and this is less than a .475/500gr with SD = .317.

It seems pretty safe to say, IMHO, SD over .3 is not important and it may be a real hindrance with long monometals, but the FN design is very capable with SD of .317 and .313, and even with a .416/380gr FN that has SD = .314.

I have even proven that a .375/300gr FN
with SD = .305, when driven at 2700 fps is a flawless performer.

I hope Gerard agrees with that now.

Even Saeed uses .375/300gr Walterhog soft points at 2700 fps that are way longer in lenght than the FN or even HV, and he doesn't flub many shots.

Formula for Success: .375 to .510 caliber FN or HV or TSX or SP/CP/FP at 2100 to 2700 fps (faster is better within this range, to tolerance of shooter) and SD as close to .3 as possible (as little more or as little less as available).

Bulldog563
They are too soft-increase enormously in diameter and lack penetration

wombat,

Were your poor results with the 570 grain .510" Woodleigh softs on game, or in some form of testing?

I ask because I have turned the 600 grain .510" Woodleigh PPs inside out in testing. I fired them at 2,450 fps muzzle velocity from my A2 into a sand bank at 100 yards.



I must admit that I like Woodleigh softs and have used them on game up to and including cape buffalo. But this kind of expansion - even at their maximum recommended impact velocity in a hard medium like sand - did shake my confidence in them as game bullets.

Hence, I am changing over to the 570 grain Barnes TSX.

Correct me if I am wrong guys but it is my understanding that the variables that determine SD are bullet weight (mass) and bullet diameter. The length and the shape of the bullet affects ballestic coeffecient but not SD. Check out any reloading manul and you will see that all bullets for a given caliber have the same SD. Where SD becomes most important as a factor of penetration is when comparing two bullet weights in the same caliber of identical shape and construction.

A 375 round nosed solid of 300 grains will penetrate futher than an identical 375 cal. 250 grain bullet at a higher velocity.

INMO where SD really has an impact in addition to the penetration aspect is on a bullets thump, whack, wap value. I am a litle overly focused on this issue in that I primarily only hunt elephant anymore and if an ele charges, how hard of a thump the ele gets can mean the difference in turning it if the brain is missed. A heavier bullet always has more thump than a lighter bullet.

mrlexma!

I can't think of a worse medium to test a soft nosed bullet in except possibly a steel plate. Sand stops bullets cold and that is why you see so many sand bags around check points in Iraq. I have gotten the same results as you did with 550 and 500gr Woodleighs out of my Lott in sand. But I have seen that same bullet penetrate over 4 feet in a bull buff and then go through the shoulder blade. Have no fear they will perform well in game only worry about it if your buff are filled with sand.

465H&H

500 NE

570 woodleigh soft unfired
570 woodleigh soft from elephant body (test shot only - elephant killed w/a solid)
570 woodleigh soft fired front on into a live cape buffalo's snout. Recovered at the 4th vertebrae if I recall.

465,

No doubt sand is too hard a test medium, plus I was driving these slugs very fast. And I have certainly killed buff quite dead with 500 grain Woodleigh softs using my .458 Lott. I have put my bullets just into the shoulder crease, or elsewhere, such as straight on below the chin, so as to avoid big bones, and I have always had a magazine full of solids for follow ups, if needed.

Although my Woodleigh softs have killed well, I have been a bit troubled that they have always expanded almost to the size of the 570 grainer in the photo above posted by 500grains, and they have never fully penetrated on a broadside shot.

So, after several years of use, and much reflection, I have decided that they may fail on big bones, and I don't like the prospect of that. Hence, my question to wombat, to see whether he has experienced any actual failures on game.

In any case, I think I will switch, and go with the Barnes TSX, which is a much stouter bullet, in future. I would go with NFs rather than Barnes, but NF's bullet production unfortunately stops at 0.475" diameter.

MR:
Do they make a 630 grain soft? My point in this post was that when you increase to 510 diameter, you need a MUCH heavier bullet, in a soft, then is offered.
570 is the standard for solids. Softs should be quite a bit heavier, so they can expand, but still have enough weight to continue to penetrate.

Either that, or, drive the bullet over 2500 fps, but, as you said, the bullet may fail on bone.

I wasn't thinking of anything so fancy as tungsten, or uranium, though I certainly LIKE that idea. No, I was thinking of just something like steel, or slightly heavier, that was copper coated.

GS