arkypete,

I for one am not sure if anyone is making replacement front blades. By the way, my only complaint with the front sight blade on the M1895 is MY difficulty in seeing the darned thing. I know that the front sight blade is pinned in and can be removed, but like I said I do not know if anyone is providing replacements.

My plan is to take one of the ivory teeth from one of the cow elk I shot this year and fab a new bead for the front sight; therefore improving it's visibility (at least for me). I figured on attaching it to the existing blade, I haven't worked out all the details of the attachment method just yet, but I am confident I can cobble something together which will prove acceptable.

If someone does know of a source, please share.

ASS_CLOWN

JudgeG

I fully respect your values regarding stalking of game and feel the same way.
I am also very much into history and "old school" hunting and historic guns. I would very much like to own a double, and will one day
I am also sure that your .405 will do fine in any given situation. And Bwana.. you are more then welcome, like MS would put it
What I am talking about here is the "attitude" that many Americans have regarding what calibre to use. They want to apply the American Cartridges and love to argue about it/ discuss it.
I like to study African hunting history and then use the classic cartridges (mostly British). I did not do this on my first/only trip to Africa but will next time. I want to feel Africa I want to be Africa
That is why I have a .500 Jeffery and not a .500 A-Square. That is why I have a .375 H&H and not a .378 Wby
It is not all about bullet weight and velocity. It is also about spirit and tradition IMO.
Now I know that there is some tradition regarding the use of .405 in Africa but that was in many cases by Americans.
I have just seen many posts that goes something like " I am going to Africa for my first time and I have the following guns in my safe... bla bla. ! am I good to go ??"
If you are going to Africa and spend allot of money on a safari, Then a CZ in 375 H&H or 416 Rigby is not a bad investment.


Let is be said that I love Americans and have lived in the state of NY.
I go back about two times a year to visit with the American "family" and would not have it any other way.
I am just asking a question that I base on behaviour that I have seen from some Americans here on AR.

The patriotism and national feelings must stop at some point. Few African Professional Hunters are shooting 45/70 and driving a Chevy.

I am not addressing anyone in specific. Judge I know that you have all the guns .470 NE .375 H&H etc. And using the .405 like Teddy R. did is, in my opinion, in the African spirit.

I would furthermore like to say that if I where to hunt a American buffalo I would get and use a .50-110 Winchester Express. When in Rome do as the Romans.

Style and image is sometimes a good thing.
Ex. Driven pheasant hunt in Europe: Do not show up all dressed in real tree camo carrying a Benelli M3 with all the trimmings. You might be a redneck

Am I in trouble now



Have a great day and god bless.

Ragards,

Andr�

Andre, that's a hoot! Except now I have a Moon Pie up my nose...

Just a question on the lengthening of the 405 chamber. What effect does this have on the velocity and accuracy when using the 300 grn loads

In the 450-400 the 55 cordite loads were mostly in 450-400-3.25, but not all of them, some 3" guns were also 55 gr. cordite..these guns were made for the India trade, primarily for tigers....

The 60 Cordite guns were produced for the African trade...

As to loading them with modern powders I have found they are both the same and either will readily take velocities up to 2100 FPS without any problems, however given a choice I would opt for the 3" version, simply because I would never need a filler, but either will suit me fine....

I have shot the 450-400s in both persuations for many years and it is still my favorite double rifle caliber for all dangerous game with the possible exception of elephant and I would even use on on elephant if I had too and without any fear of the outcome...I presently do not own a 450-400 to my dismay, as I went to a .470...I will probably remedy that situation one of these days.

Brent

Quote:

---

BP Express rifles seem far more appropriate than your A-squares

---

I do not have a A-Square I have a .500 Jeffery and a .375 H&H.

Cheers,

Andr�

George

Or camo



Cheers,

Andr�

If someone wants to shoot Buffalo or dangerous game with a frying pan it suits me, its all about fun and games and you always have a backup...

I feel certain guns are capable of killing buffalo cleanly and those are the 45-90, 50-90 and up with proper handloads and solids..The .405 is certainly capable with a proper handload...I don't consider any of them stoppers unless you shoot for the spine or brain...

My personal minimum criteria is a 40 cal.400 gr. bullet at 2000 FPS muzzle velocity, maybe even a 300 gr. 375 cal. at 2000 FPS...SD of .300 .366 cal. and 2000 FPS better describes it or something on that order.

By the same token I will hunt dangerous game with whatever I have and I have done that, just don't recommend it to others...

Still dangerous game shot properly with the first shot will succomb to some very small calibers..The 220 gr. Nosler in a 30-06, or the 175 gr. Nosler in the 7x57 are both good examples..

But for the intelligent hunter, nothing less than the 375 H&H with a 300 gr. well constructed solid flat nose bullet makes a real buffalo gun...

That opens the door to a lot of conversation I am sure, and
it really makes little difference..just go hunt and enjoy, I would love to shoot a Buffalo with a .405, but not with a 45-70..just my take.

Arkey,
Take a look at the Lyman 66WB BEFORE you lay down your $70.
They ain't like they used to be. Aluminum bases now. They look and feel flimsey. The clicks are "mushy" and the target-style knobs look like they would be apt to get bumped out of adjustment easily. I bought two, one for my '86 and the other for the '95. I put the one on the '86, but really don't like it. I'm going to sell the other and look for an old production Lyman or Redfield for the '95. The '95 is not drilled, so anything that I can find with a long enough arm should be O.K..
Jack

The 1895 action can handle a .30/06 and the 1886 a .348. I'm not sure, but isn't the pressure on the former a good deal higher than the latter???



As for my rifle, I find it smooth in function and, with the shotgun type recoil pad, quite managable with even the 400 grain bullet at 1950 fps. I'd hate to try the same with a hooked/steel butt plate.



I've found a "period" receiver sight at BUFFALO ARMS . I'm hoping to have it case-colored and be able to get my groups down to a couple of inches. I believe the same sight will be "correct" if you want a non-anachronistic (if that's a word) sight for your 1886.



Does your 1886 have nice wood? Mine really looks great.

I have a TC Encore rifle in .405 Win(RGB longthroat) that will drive a 410 woodleigh SP to about 2200fps with 56 grs of H414 at about 58KPsi. I'd bet my last dollar that this thing will do a cape buff with very little fanfare. The COL is 3.582 and I cut a new cannelure in the woodleigh bullets to crimp on. The COL is undoubtably way too long for a M1898. AS I remember I actually got up to about 50-52 grs of H414 in my original .405 win before just palin self preservation took effect. A long drop tube will let you get a few more grains inthe case. Nevertheless, I would caution against pushing even a modern .405 into the high 55Kpsi plus range. An encore can take it, a winchester maybe-Rob

Judge,
Is this the rifle you have?


Nice!
What kind of pad did you add to it?

Judge,

I chop off the end of 400 gr Woodleigh SP and get them down to 370 gr. I can easily and safely drive them to 2100 fps using IMR3031.

I have gotten Woodleigh 400 gr SP to 2020 fps safely with IMR3031 also, with a massively compressed charge of IMR4895 I can get the 400gr Woodleigh SP to 2040 fps (load is 55.5 grains if you are interested with a CCI250 primer). I did not recut my throat though, my solution was to make a new cannelure.

Unfortunately, your rifle is still suffering from two afflictions:
1.) it is a lever action
2.) even worse, it is a push feed!

Personally, I love my M1895, 405 Winnie even if it is afflicted.

Good luck,

ASS_CLOWN

Here is the Hogdon info. I'd think I'm well within safe limits and not up in the stratsphere with pressure.

400 GR. WDLGH RNSN (Maximum Loads) DIA. .411" COL: 3.085"
VARGET 52.0 1928 44,300 PSI
H4895 50.5 1945 44,900 PSI
H4198 36.5 1718 43,400 PSI

I've about duplicated the Varget load.

Any problem?

Judge G,

In India the old 405 was quite popular and has taken a number of tigers - the elephant was a domesticated animal there and not hunted as extensively as in Africa. Several double rifles were made for it and a member on the Nitro Express forums hunts with one.

This would be a very interesting choice and would have the air of the classical era.

Good hunting!

John,
Does this put the thread back on track?



I really do like that rifle!

George,
I would more about the feeding than the coloring!!


Judge G,
the 40, with the rihgt bullets, is right there with the 450/400.... but you HAVE a 470 (almost)....

jeffe

Hey Judge,

I am having a .405 Win. built by Bill Moyer in Carlisle, PA on a P-14 action. It will be chambered to handle cartridges as long as the unaltered magazine will hold. I'm having the rifle built around the 360 gr. North Fork bullet. I figure that with the strength of the P-14 action and the extra case capacity I will gain by having bullets loaded father out in the case, it should be a real thumper.

The reason I'm writing is to let you know about the 360 gr. bullet from North Fork. I believe they are still in the process of researching that bullet. If you look at the construction of the North Fork bullets you will see a number of rings that I hope will serve as cannilure rings. With that in mind, I will be able to load the bullets securely out as far as the unaltered magazine will allow.


Since you have had your rifle rechambered with a longer throat, you may want to contact North Fork and ask their opinion of your set-up.

Good Luck,

Smoker

Clown:

Thanks for the info. I have ordered the Model 38 receiver sight (or at least, Roger Ferrell has since he had to make some mods to get it to fit on a "repro" vice an original.

One good think about the receiver sight. I believe I'll be able to make an easy transition between the 400 grain Woodleighs and the faster 300 grain factory stuff with just a (hopefully) repeatable couple of turns of a screw.

uhhhh...are we all still talking about rifles....I seem to be distracted by something.


JohnTheGreek

How does the 1895 compare to the 1886 is it a better designed lever or not ?? I just recived my 1886 reporduction 45/70 (extra lite model) and I love it....the .405 is interesting and I want to know where it fits in.

Sorry, but the TR thing involves a .30-06 Springfield sporter--stocked and sighted to suit himself--a Winchester Model 1895 in .405 Winchester and a Holland and Holland Royal Grade SLE double rifle in .500/.450 Nitro Express. Most of us can afford the first two, but it's the last one that breaks the bank.

Hay,!! Now i heard those Woodleigh Bullet's are EVIL

I guess your just going to have to find a new brand to shoot

JudgeG
I'm doing the Teddy Roosevelt trip in April of this spring, for plains game. I'm taking the 375 Whelen, 45-70- 1886 and the 405- Mod.95.
The 45-70 and the 405 will be using cast bullets and the 375 Whelen will be using a mix of cast and jacketed.
I had a mold made by Mountain Molds for the 405, there are darned few stock molds available, about the same can be said of jacketed bullet availability, few to even less. The mold I had made throws a 350 grain gas checked, blunt nosed, bore riding bullet. In my rifle, as the cartridge is chambered the bullet self centers by engaging the leade, supporting and guiding the bullet into the rifling. Air cooled wheel weight bullets are accurate, but hardened, water quenched, bullets are more accurate. I cannot say how much more accurate since I�m using the damned buckhorn site, at the top of it�s elevator, like yourself. I�ll be replacing the buckhorn site with a Lyman #66 for the 1886, at the same time I have a recoil pad installed.
So far I�ve worked my through IMR 4198 loads, IMR 4064, and now I�m working on IMR 4895. The IMR 4198 loads are accurate, do not reach the full potential of the cartridge, but are fun practice rounds for off hand plinking. The IMR 4064 are not quite as accurate as the 4198 loads, but that could be the result of the crude rear site. The IMR 4895 loads appear to be very accurate at appropriate velocities, but again the rear seems to be a stumbling block for me. I�m going to lay in a stock of IMR 3031, which according to a couple of other 405 shooters seems to be the powder of choice.
Had the 405 rifle out today banging away at an 8 by 12 steel gong at 100 yards, off hand with the 350 grain cast bullet a healthy charge of IMR 4895. I was pleased to have 100% hits even with those damned buckhorns, with a satisfying �Bong�. The 405 carries a good bit authority.
Jim

Andre,

The M1886 is tube fed, and it's locking bars are located on the sides of the breech block approximately in the middle. The M1895 is a rear locking system with a box magazine and it feeds just like a M700 Remington or any other push feed box fed rifle.

Here is the magazine box of the M1895:



The locking bar ~ 1/2 up (action is partially open in other words) the locking bar is the shiny silver piece:




A side view with the action open showing the breech block extended out the rear of the receiver, and the locking bar dropped down out of the back of the receiver:



I don't have a M1886, M71, or M1892 so I cannot post pictures of it's lock-up mechanism for you, perhaps someone who does have one can. The Winchester M1894 uses a similar lock-up to the M1895, but is handicapped by a tube magazine. Tube magazines by the way SUCK, simply because they are prone to jamming since the cartridge is completely UNCONTROLLED from the tube to the breech. This FACT has proven to be a significant issue with the heavy recoiling calibers, at least that has been my limited experience with the tube fed models.

For the Judge some pictures of my modified Woodleigh 400 gr SP they now weigh 370 grains:



In cartridge form:



Here is my load development knowledge from my M1895 405 Winchester, for whatever worth.

300 grain Hornady (these bullets fragmented in cedar at muzzle velocities greater than 2290 fps)

CCI 250 primer

54 grains Rel 7
Muzzle velocity ~ 2425 fps avg of 20 shot string
No pressure signs
PRE < 0.001"

56 grains of Rel 7
Muzzle velocity ~ 2498 fps avg of 5 shot string
No pressure signs
PRE ~ 0.0012"

57 grains of Rel 7
Muzzle velocity ~ 2530 fps
No pressure signs
PRE ~ 0.0014"

400 grain Woodleigh SP
CCI 250 primer for all loads

55.2 grains of IMR4895 (~ 110% compressed load)
Muzzle velocity ~ 2040 fps (avg of 5 shot string)
No pressure signs
PRE < 0.001"

56 grains of IMR4895 (~ 112% compressed load)
Muzzle velocity ~ 2068 fps (avg of 10 shot string)
No pressure signs
PRE ~ 0.0011"

47 grains of Rel 7 (MAX LOAD AND I MEAN THAT)
Muzzle velocity ~ 1970 fps
No pressure signs
PRE ~ 0.0017"

48 grains of Rel 7 yields SIGNIFICANT PRIMER CRATERING SO BE WARNED. 50 grain os Rel 7 LEADS TO PIERCED PRIMERS and 2190 FPS, though.

47 grains of IMR 3031
Muzzle velocity ~ 1895 fps
No pressure signs
No PRE taken

48 grains of IMR 3031
Muzzle velocity ~ 1940 fps
No pressure signs
No PRE taken

49 grains of IMR 3031
Muzzle velocity ~ 1981 fps
No pressure signs
No PRE taken


Modified Woodleigh 400 grain SP NOW 370 grain see picture of modified bullets above < !--color-->

49 grains of IMR3031
Muzzle velocity ~ 1964 fps
No pressure signs
No PRE taken

50 grains of IMR 3031
Muzzle velocity ~ 2010 fps
No pressure signs
No PRE taken

52 grains of IMR 3031
Muzzle velocity ~ 2097 fps
No pressure signs
PRE ~ 0.0013"

53.2 grains of IMR3031 (Considered by ME to be MAX LOAD)
Muzzle velocity ~ 2143 fps
No pressure signs
PRE ~ 0.0015"

54 grains and SOME primers showed very light cratering.

Piercing the primer on this rifle is a VER BAD THING since your eye is at the EXHAUST PORT! < !--color-->

Good luck with you hunt and have fun with your 405 Winny. Personally, I think your current load is more than enough for buff, but more is almost always better!

How do you like those semi-buckhorn sights? I vertically string with them something terrible at 100 yards (like 8" - 10" ) I am putting an ivory front bead on mine and "fixing" that semi-buckhorn. By fixing I mean making it look more like a proper express "V".

ASS_CLOWN < !--color-->

Judge,

No problem. Like I said I think your load is more than adequate, just thought you might appreciate the data anyway. I actually have more load data someplace just haven't dug it up.

Let me know how you like that receiver sight.

ASS_CLOWN

El G,
does a 450 alaskan in a browning 71 count?
I've got a 99 in 358... fun rifle...

but, dang it, lever guns just don't move me... unless the lever opens up TWO barrels

jeffe

Judge,
Good thing you cut the throat. A friend of mine had a KB with a 405 last year. It was finally postulated that the culprit was a tight chamber combined wtih untrimmed, once fired brass and bullet engaged in the rifling. Winchester finally shrugged and said "Gosh, We'll replace it". The explosion messed his wrist up though-a bad thing for a cardiologist.

It sure does! Just lookl at that beautiful...CASE HARDENING THERE!!

Jeff, if you've ever shot an M1886, an M 71, or M 92 Winchester, I believe you'd understand about the lever action rifle thing...

Judge,

my 1886 wood is quite nice...I am happy with it considering it is not the deluxe model. I would love to add a an 1885 to my collection but $$...the .404 project is going to soak up some funds I think.

Also it took a long time to get my 1886 el in to Australia...damn winchester Australia, they could do a special order for folks who want these reporction arms.

The nicest Win. M-95 I have ever seen has been posted on AR several times..from an individual in Alaska and the name slips my 70 year old mind, not uncommon!!

It has a barrel band swivel, barrel band front sight, and a nice quarter rib..If I ever get a M-95 that will be how I will do mine, plus I will make a new stock with a thinner forend like the original m-95s..

As to its ability to kill a buffalo, it should do that very well at 1900 plus, even though your about at the minimum..I think Northfork should make a 350 gr. cup point for that caliber..Maybe if all you guy would get together and place an order then he would do that, I would take a couple of hundred of them and I don't even have a .405, but if I had those bullets, I'd buy one!!

In fact if the rifle came with the trimmings on Stu Cs post, I'd buy one anyway....

Hey JudgeG!

If you do the buff with the 405, are ya gonna wear an English pith helmet, and a monicle?

Mad Dog