416 Rigby must be a piece of shit.....because

The 375 RUM is rimless, can dupicate 375 H&H ballistics with low pressure and is a calibre that is seen as being non desirable.

416 Rigby is rimless, can duplicte 416 Rem ballistics with low pressure

A I missing something here.

Mike

What you're missing is that the 375 RUM was invented by some snot-nose in the marketing department who couldn't show you Africa on a world globe. The cartridge has no history, does not offer anything that hasn't been readily available for almost a hundred years, and looks funny. Its only purpose is to sell more Remington rifles, which is an obvious disservice to mankind in general.

But will the 375 Ultra duplicate 375 H&H ballistics at lower pressure?

Who cares when the designs took place.

If 416 Rigby is good then 375 Ultra must be good.

and they accused ME of fishing from a moving boat under power.

boat

You're wrong about who invented the 375RUM. Jon Sundra was the first to use a 375 Ultra when the 300 Ultra first came out. He looked at the case and saw the possibilities for bigger cartridges. He necked the 300 to 375 and went to Africa long before Remington came out with their 375Rum. Sundra is an inveterate wildcatter and has done so on almost any case you can think of.

Well the .416 Rigby has been around since 1911 and the fate of the .375 RUM is sealed. DOA. Only one rifle is now chambered for it and it won't be much longer as the "beancounters" will do away with it. Lawdog

I wonder if Saeed is aware that the 375 Ultra or 375/404 is no good. I guess when he gets to try it in the field he will find it to be no good

Mike

quote:

416 Rigby is rimless, can duplicte 416 Rem ballistics with low pressure

I think somebody got their skirt on backwards this morning.

The .416 Rigby is not rebated. It is no POS.

The .375/404 Saeed is not rebated. It is a .416 Dakota necked down. It is no POS.

The RUM's are all rebated and were indeed the design of a Snotnose. They are all POS's.

End of this fishing trip. If you snag them in the dorsal fin you gotta throw them back, at least if the game warden is watching. Of course Mike375 "proberbly" (that one is for Balla Balla) fishes with dynamite, when the game warden isn't around.

Don't knock the .375 Ultra or the .375/.404 until you have personally seen what it will do on game. You will be surprised. I really believe that 75% of the .375H&H shooters would change to an Ultra if they shot both on safari and saw the difference on game.

The rebated .375 RUM is not in the same league as Saeed's .375/404, simply because of the rebate.

The ballistics are identical, so that is not the issue, since a useful 2700 to 2800 fps MV with 300 grainers is easy in 24" to 26" barrels. So too with the .375 Wby, the most sensible of all, just keep it closer to 2700 fps rather than 2800 fps to prevent pressure problems.

The Iron Buffalo shows that the extra velocity will give equal penetration with 2700 fps as at 2500 fps, with .375/300gr solid FN, and do a bit more destruction along the way.

Really no big deal. All of them are effective killers, not much difference.

Mike,
According to my loading manuals, in most cases, the .375RUM will produce .375H&H velocities at higher pressures than a .375H&H (54kCUP vs. 50kCUP), so your premise is flawed from the beginning.
It also requires more (of the same) powder to generate those velocities, so recoil is higher (more ejecta).

The .375H&H operates at 48kCUP-50kCUP which is not too high for Africa; the .416 Rigby operates at about 39k-40kCUP, where the .416 Remington operates at 52k-54kCUP.

George

The .375 Belted Rimless Magnum Nitro-Express from Holland kicks their ass, it's one of the world's greatest cartridges.

The 416 Rigby had to be new at some time but obvioulsly someone was willing to give it a try.

Sturm, Ruger & Co plus Federal Cartridge Co are responsible for it's reincarnation.
416 Rigby comes out, few care...it nearly dies...416 Taylor...416 Hoffman....The folks at Remington look around trying to salvage their ".323 Express" they look at Hoffman (or perhaps Taylor) and out comes the .416Remi....Weatherby joins the clan....Federal and Ruger don't want to be left out! The .416 is a good one, but it owes a lot to the .375H&H.

George,

Then the manual is wrong.

A 375 Ultra has to be able to equal H&H velocities with lower pressure.

And my argument is simply if the Rigby is good and the desired calibre over the 416 Remington then the same must apply to the 375 Ultra and with the added plus the 375 Ultra will go in standard rifles.

Mike

quote:

416 Rigby comes out, few care...it nearly dies...416 Taylor...416 Hoffman....The folks at Remington look around trying to salvage their ".323 Express" they look at Hoffman (or perhaps Taylor) and out comes the

Mike, there are a couple of problems with your argument. First, the 416 Rem must hit very high pressure to push 400 grains at 2400 fps (and of course the Rigby does it with low pressure). In contrast, the 375 H&H, even with low pressure factory loads, has excess velocity at 2550 fps. It can be dropped to 2400 fps by a reloader to have a nice low pressure cartridge. Another way of saying this is that the 416 Rem has had pressure problems but the 375 H&H has not. So there is no need for an even lower pressure version of the 375 H&H.

Further, the 375 RUM has a rebated rim which makes it highly suspect to most gun guys. The Rigby, in contrast, is a proper case design.

However, if Weatherby discontinues all of their belted magnums and makes Mark Vs in 416 Rigby exclusively, then you might convince me to not like the .416 any more.

500

I was completely unaware that you were not a Wby fan

But is the amount of rebating on the 300 Ultra an issue in reality.

I agree with you on the 375 and 2400 Vs the 416 Rem and its 2400.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Mike378:


But is the amount of rebating on the 300 Ultra an issue in reality.

Apparently not in PF guns!

Why don't you send D'Arcy Echols an email and ask if he will build you a rifle in 375 RUM. I bet he will say, "NO."

We can even place a wager on it if you like.

500,

I already know from John S that D'Arcy will not chamber for the RUMs.

Mike

Mike378,
Right, the pressures that George is quoting are wrong or home cooked.

It is interesting that Remington came out with a vertical-in-line stack magazine for the .375 RUM, so maybe the rebate can be a problem even with pushfeeds in staggered stack boxes.

That is the main drawback of the RUM.

Saeed with his .375/404 and many others with .375 Wby's have proven that +2700 fps with .375/300gr bullets of stout construction can be a better killer than the .375 H&H at both near and far.

The .375 H&H is just tamer for the timid or less experienced who will be less likely to flinch. Its mainly a mental thing, and a weak bullet thing.

Hey brother Rip,
Missed you the last few days. Do you notice that you, Ray and I are night owls. Must be a family thing.
lawndart

RIP,

So a 375/404 Imp or a 375/416 or a 375 Lapua is the answer.

I dare not mention the 378 Wby on a thread in which 500 Grains is participating as it is bad for his health

Mike

Mike378,
I kind of like the .375 Wby best of all, just had to do a .375 Lapua because, well, just because. And the .378 Wby is just fine too, in a CZ.

Bro'dart,
Working too many hours through the week, sleeping late Saturday morning, just got the wife tucked in and snoozing, and I am not sleepy yet.

Let me know if you ever have a good meat bison to guide me on in the dead of winter in Idaho. I would enjoy driving out and hauling it back to KY in coolers, and taking it to a Menonite butcher named Yoder. I'll have studded snow tires on a pickup and would like to haul up to 800 pounds of meat for traction.

RIP,

There is no question that a stronger argument can probably be made for the 375 Wby than any other 375 and especially if 300 grain spitzers are on the agenda.

It does however seem to be a calibre that lots of people think is a good idea but it does not translate to reality.

Mike

Mike378,
Ol' D'Arcy builds .375 Weatherby rifles. That's "real." "Really" expensive.

Firing "real" .375 H&H factory loads in the .375 Wby chamber slows those 300 grainers down to 2400 fps. That's "really" accurate and "really" gentle on the shoulder. How much more "real" can it get?

RIP,

I meant by translating to reality a case where shooters actually get the 375 Wby done.

I think John S will tell you that D'Arcy resisted quite strongly on doing the 375 Wby.

Mike

The premise is still wrong. You have to handload the RUM down and that's apples and oranges. Besides, who the hell buys a 502 crate motor for their custom car and drives around with two plug wires off?

There are lots of .375 Improved rifles out in the hunting field all the time, and it is no oxymoron, improving on the .375 H&H. D'Arcy ain't the only guy who can make a rifle work. Many other custom builders will happily do a .375 WBY, .375 AI, .375 JRS, etc., and they are easy to get to function reliably and accurately.

The .375 Wby is the greatest in this bunch because of the headstamped brass made by Norma, and the fact that you can make your own from basic brass or just shoot factory .375 H&H ammo and slow it down for the cheap stuff to hold together on impact.

That 10% to 12% extra capacity in the case can make it much easier to get the same velocities or higher at lower pressures, and get the long monometal bullets to give the velocity that some .375 H&H shooters think they are getting.

The recoil differences are negligible to anyone not afraid of a rifle. It's a mental thing.

Reality Check: There is no down side to the .375 Weatherby.

Curmudgeons may continue to delude themselves.
Women and children should stick to the .375 H&H.

quote:

D'Arcy ain't the only guy who can make a rifle work

Say that one more time please! At least there are some people on here who must have some common sense.

A clarification please, do the following all use the rebated rib and no belt:

-the RUM lineup
-the Dakota lineup
-404 Jeffery
-416 Remington

???

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Mike378,
Right, the pressures that George is quoting are wrong or home cooked.

Wrong perhaps, but NOT 'home-cooked'. This is from Hodgdon.com:

BULLET POWDER GR VEL CUP

375 H & H MAGNUM CASE: WINCHESTER
BBL: 24" PR: FEDERAL 215 M

270 GR. WIN FS COL: 3.600"
H4350 83.0 C 2694 46,800 CUP
H414 78.0 2576 45,500 CUP
H380 78.0 2632 46,600 CUP
VARGET 67.0 2620 51,600 CUP
H4895 68.0 2624 50,500 CUP

300 GR. SIE SPBT COL: 3.600"
H4350 81.5 C 2645 49,500 CUP
H414 78.0 2548 46,800 CUP
VARGET 62.0 2454 49,300 CUP
H4895 65.0 2505 50,400 CUP


375 REMINGTON ULTRA MAG CASE: REMINGTON
BBL: 24" PR: REMINGTON 9 1/2M TWIST: 1:12"
TRIM: 2.840"

270 GR. HDY SP (Starting Loads)
DIA. .375 COL: 3.550"
H4831 99.0 2779 54,200 PSI
H4350 90.0 2767 52,400 PSI
H414 89.0 2789 54,400 PSI

270 GR. HDY SP (Maximum Loads)
DIA. .375 COL: 3.550"
H4831 104.0C 2922 62,900 PSI
H4350 95.0 2932 62,600 PSI
H414 93.0 2924 63,000 PSI

300 GR. SFT SP (Starting Loads)
DIA. .375 COL: 3.550"
H1000 103.0 2628 54,000 PSI
H4831 92.0 2593 54,600 PSI
H4350 85.0 2598 54,400 PSI

300 GR. SFT SP (Maximum Loads)
DIA. .375 COL: 3.550"
H1000 105.0C 2678 57,600 PSI
H4831 97.0 2719 62,500 PSI
H4350 90.0 2733 62,700 PSI

George

Comparing the 375 H&H to the 375 RUM using Hodgdon's data makes the 375 RUM look pretty dismal.

quote:

Originally posted by Prewar70:
A clarification please, do the following all use the rebated rib and no belt:

-the RUM lineup
-the Dakota lineup
-404 Jeffery
-416 Remington

???

The .404 Jeffery does not have a rebated rim nor does it have a belt

The .416 Rem Mag does not have a rebated rim and also has a belted case.....same as many magnum cases today.

Dakota cases are not rebated and have no belt.

RUM cases are rebated but no belt.

I love the not scared of a rifle. Just wondering at what caliber is retina detachment a problem.

George,
We musn't compare CUP in the .375 H&H to PSI in the .375 RUM.

53,000 CUP = 62,000 PSI in the .375 H&H, and that is the recommended max average pressure for the .375 H&H.

Multiply all the CUP values by 1.1698 in the .375 H&H for a rough translation to PSI.

The very idea of even to begin to say that the .375 RUM will give higher pressures than a .375 H&H for the same velocity is misguided, since the .375 RUM is over 20% bigger in case capacity ... unless some home cooking restricts the powder, bullet, and primer choices.

The 2740 fps loads with 300 grain bullets will be done with modest pressures in the RUM when the .375 H&H is maxed out to get 2530 fps with the same 300 grainers.

Quoting one source for velocity and pressure readings on two cartridges is not very good statistics, as the dweebs would rightly say. I am very familiar with the data you posted, and have puzzled over the Hodgdon manual many times. I have never had a .375 H&H go that fast nor tried to compress that much H4350 into an H&H. Also, I have had the .375 RUM go faster than what they quote, and with lesser charges. Each rifle is a law unto itself, eh?

The .375 Wby will get about the same max pressure as the .375 H&H, and give about 200 fps more velocity than the .375 H&H.

Maxed out with 300 grainers all at 62,000 PSI, 63,000 psi, or 65,000 psi, whatever the max average allowed is for each, they are all very close:

.375 H&H: 2600 fps, maybe in a 26" barrel, but that is a barrier my slow rifles have never cracked.

.375 Wby: 2800 fps in a 26" barrel with factory ammo (I have verified this), or with H4350 handloads, and I have done that too.

.375 RUM: 2900 fps claimed factory velocity in a 26" barrel ... It was about 2820 fps for me.

This is trifling, so let's move on. I yield the floor.

George,

The 375 Ultra data will be a lot newer as it is in PSI and don't forget the number for PSI is much higher than CUP for equal pressure.

Mike

Maybe I'm just stupid but what is the big deal about the Rebated Rim.
Will someone please tell me. I'm serious I really dont know.