What do you guys recommend as the best all-around "budget" bolt action CRF rifle? I'm assuming some to consider will be CZ, Winchester, and Ruger. The calibers I am considering are 375 H&H, 416 Rem, and 458 Win.

I plan to use this gun on Asian Water Buffalo and Nilgai, and will likely put a Leupold VX-R 2-7x33mm scope on it.

In addition to seeking your opinions on the best rifle....I would like some advice regarding calibers as well. I have never shot any of the three mentioned above.....so I am curious about the recoil difference between them. Do the 416 and 458 generally recoil much harder than the 375? I'm referring to standard velocity factory ammo (such as Hornady DGS and DGX ammo).

I have never considered myself to be recoil sensitive.....but the heaviest calibers I shoot are 300 Win and 45-70 Govt. So I'm sure I am stepping into a whole new level of recoil. I just want to be cautious not to begin with an extremely hard recoiling gun, before I get my feet wet in the "big bore" category.

You gotta walk before you can run.....

If at all possible, I would like to stay under $1,000-$1,200 for the gun itself (not including scope).

Thanks.

Honestly, I'd say go to Gunbroker.com and look for any of the Brands you just named. 458's are cheap on there.
Send it out to a quality gunsmith to be tuned and made ready to hunt.
You just might come well under budget.

Cheers, John

You mention recoil and if your like me, recoil sensitive/cautious.

Find a big bore rifle club and attend a shoot or ask at your gun shop for BB owners and you maybe able to try different rifles in different calibres before you buy.

Fit has a lot to do with it at this end of the market. A bad fitting .308W will hurt more than a well fitted .375H&H IMHO.

quote:

Originally posted by Eland Slayer:
I have never considered myself to be recoil sensitive.....but the heaviest calibers I shoot are 300 Win and 45-70 Govt. So I'm sure I am stepping into a whole new level of recoil.

I find the recoil of my .375 H&H rifle less intense than that from Marlin's .45-70. The .375 is a great caliber in all regards.

Wade,
if you would consider the 375 or 416 ruger - get a ruger or cz

416 rem - your choice is winchester
416 rigby - which uses hornady brass now, CZ

458 win? get a lott, in CZ

must be one of those choices?
375 HH on a CZ, have it bedded properly, go shoot

How about a Browning BLR in 450 Marlin. Load it with those 45 caliber Barnes Buster bullets and it is plenty of gun for the game you named. Should be pretty comparable to your 45-70 in recoil. Or, just use some pressure plus loads in your 45-70 if it is a newer Marlin.

.375 will be a better starting point than the others, but none are impossible (well, I have not shot the 416s so I am not speaking from experience there). 458 Win will be plenty for what you want so a Lott is not required, although you needn't turn one down.

You should find a place with the Win, CZ, and Ruger so you can try them for fit and feel. The weight, balance, and stock fit will differ on each.

It is not unusual to find lightly-used examples around.

My experience is that most factory rifles need some work, either to improve usability or reliability, so the budget may get your feet wet but you may want to spend more at some point down the road to make it work 100%.

Charles,
on the 458 win.. considering that the 798 appears to be defunct again, i believe on win does a 458 winmag these days ... hence my comment to get the lott . .. cz makes lots of them

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Charles,
on the 458 win.. considering that the 798 appears to be defunct again, i believe on win does a 458 winmag these days ... hence my comment to get the lott . .. cz makes lots of them

My point is just that if he finds a Model 70 and likes the weight and feel, not reason to pass up a .458 even if it is not a Lott. And yes, the Win can become a Lott with some parts changed out, but it is not mandatory.

In a brand-new CZ, all else equal, the Lott is an easy choice.

Be sure whatever you get is properly bedded.

A few days back, I saw where were some NIB Remington 798's (Zastava action) in 375HH for around $800. Some may say you need to put at least another $500 or so to make it shootable....

Sorry - the 798's were on gunsinternation.com

It appears I can't spell for shit tonight...go here for 375HH for $700

http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100113323

charles, we see perfetly eye to eye.. a model 70 i 458 winmag, in a crf, aint a bad thing!

Honestly, I didn't even know there was such a thing as a Mauser action CRF Remington. What are you guys' thoughts about the 798? Is it worth looking at?

the 798 is the same make as the interarms markX or charles daly .. the 798s i've seen are the WORST quality of them all .. i could be forced to own one. but i wouldn't pay 50% of what i would for whitworth express...

all that being said, get a cz in 458 lott before a 798... unless you are getting the 798 for 500-600 bucks

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
the 798 is the same make as the interarms markX or charles daly .. the 798s i've seen are the WORST quality of them all .. i could be forced to own one. but i wouldn't pay 50% of what i would for whitworth express...

all that being said, get a cz in 458 lott before a 798... unless you are getting the 798 for 500-600 bucks

Duly noted.....

I really like the "hog back" stocks on the original CZ 550's. I might have to look hard at getting one....

quote:

the 798s i've seen are the WORST quality of them all .. i could be forced to own one. but i wouldn't pay 50% of what i would for whitworth express...

+1 I handled one back in the summer of '08. The quality was atrocious. Embarrassingly so if you worked at Remington. The earlier versions/iterations of the gun from Charles Daly and others were much better.

As far as caliber goes, .375 H&H is an excellent jumping off point. I don't have any experience above it. But I find my CZ .375 much more pleasant to shoot than a buddy's .300 Weatherby, which is truly obnoxious with the muzzle blast. The CZ Euro or Hogsback stock is very nice. I like it a lot.

On the other hand, the .458 and especially the .458 Lott give you a lot of handloading options. One of the biggest mistakes I've made in gun buying was passing on a NIB CZ 458 Lott for $800. Yeah, stupid, I know.....

LWD

Wade, i am about 30 miles from you. If you want to try out the 375 aand a Lott, send me a pm about it.

Keith

If you can try them out, that would be a good way to find what one you like.

I have the CZ550 in 375 H&H. Recoil is not bad, but the rifle is a bit heavy (and I have slimmed the stock down a lot). Functions great, but have had Wayne at AHR slick it up. When I bought it, it was between the RSM (ridiculously heavy) or the M70 (more expensive than CZ at the time), so I went with the with the cheaper CZ knowing it would need some modifications.

I'm very happy with my CZ, but can't help but think it would be better suited for something in 416 or bigger. If I had to make the same choice today, I'd be grabbing the 416 Ruger. I've fondled those new Hawkeyes and I'm quite impressed with them. Very easy to handle, nice iron sights, good price point, and I hear Ruger's customer service is getting better and better every day. About the only thing I don't like about it is the safety, but you could probably fix that.

Just throwing another thought out there, if you don't reload, factory ammo gets expensive fast. A 9.3x62 (available both from CZ and Ruger) recoils less than the 375 H&H and has pretty cheap factory "plinking" ammo. Should work just fine on water buffalo and nilgai too.

I'm pretty sure that the "Daly, Rem 798 and Mark X" were all made by Zastava and rebadged

We are getting the "original" Zastavas direct here in Australia now, they are a little ruff but work fine and very cheap in comparison to other lables, around $300 - $400 cheaper than a Ruger and about $800 cheaper than a Winchester. Thats a lot of spare money for QD mounts and a good scope



I'm very suprised you dont have a Zastava importer in the USA

Here's a link to their web site

http://www.zastava-arms.co.rs/cms/index.php?id=231

regards
S&F

Winchester in 375 H&H and 416 Rem or 458 Win

CZ if 458 Lott or 416 Rig

Zastava is definaitely an alternative for an even more "budget" alternative and nothing really negative I can say except that they are a "bit rough".

ES

I will second Jeffe - consider a 375 or 416 Ruger.
Personally I would get the 375 Ruger if I were you. Either the Hawkeye Afrikan or the Alaskan. I have tried 3 of them, they all shoot 1 moa or better right out of the box and perfect feed and function. MUCH better than the CZ`s I have tried. CZ make a good action but you need to put some money into them to make them perfect.

Hmm---Asian water buffalo.
When I hear buffalo I prefer thinking beyond 40 cal. The 416 Ruger sounds like a great gun for the money, though I am not in a position to inspect or testfire them. But I am seriously looking to buy one sight unseen.

On the other hand, as soon as you say 416 Remington you are saying long, magnum action and that means a CZ as the reliable entry level rifle. It is a very strong and reliable action. You may need to grind the follower down a little in the middle for smooth feeding. Do it yourself.

But as soon as you go CZ you are not limited to the 416Rem. If you handload, the Rigby is wonderful and outdoes the Remington by 200fps. I've made this calibre choice four times and am am obviously very happy with the calibre. The 416 Rigby is a sweet little calibre. If you want more diameter and do not plan on longer range shooting (200-300 and plus yards), then the Lott is fantastic. I would not recommend the 458 Winnie, too many people have found them on the downside of the divide between 'everything that was needed' and 'coming up a bit short'.

Scope is a bigger question. Always check the eye-relief stats at the power extremes.

I've used and enjoyed the Leupold 2.5-8" (actually this is a less useful 2.6-7.8 power) but its eye-relief at "8" power is only marginal at 3.6". And Leupold has become unnecessarily expensive.

Nikon's Monarch 2-8 is better, having both a real 2.0" power for upclose, and an eyerelief that ranges from 4.0-3,8" with very good glass. This is an excellent choice for matching with the flatness of the Rigby and the up-close potential with buffalo.

I have recently purchased a very inexpensive Bushnell 3-9 long eye relief scope ($72) whose eye relief is 6" to (about 4.5"?). That will protect your eyebrow but the scope may not hold up. Or maybe it will. I hope to try it out in the US on a lightweight 338Win that blew out an aluminum scope-ring anchor-pin off the Tikka rifle in recoil.

quote:

Originally posted by ShortandFat:
I'm very suprised you dont have a Zastava importer in the USA

We do:
http://ussginc.com/

Yup, the Zastavas are back. EAA retails them and the 375/458 have an MSRP of $714. probably sell for $625-650 if you search hard. Remington beat down the wholesale cost so low that the rifles went out of the factory fast, not good. MSRP for the CZ Safari is close to $1200 these days.

Supposedly the new 798s are better fit and finished today. Closer to Charles Daly quality that Remington. I doubt we'll ever see the old Whitworth quality again outside of the custom shop.

In 375, the Zastava weighs 8.5 lbs out of the box with a 22" barrel, the CZ hog back 9.4 and 25 inches. The 798 is easier by some margin to carry and stalk with in the brush with the shorter barrel but the extra pound in the CZ makes it easier to shoot from the bench. You also get five down from the big CZ rifle and two less in the 798 if that matters to you.

As to the caliber question; I always thought the 416s were the most versatile overall, but the 375 can do anything they can do well enough and a few things better with less recoil. The 458 is cool but has the most narrow performance window.

quote:

As to the caliber question; I always thought the 416s were the most versatile overall, but the 375 can do anything they can do well enough and a few things better with less recoil. The 458 is cool but has the most narrow performance window.

Yes, well said. The 375 with the new 250 grain TTSX Barnes will really shoot flat, 2900fps lets it compete with the 210 grain 338s in flatness for larger plains game and elk. If this combo of bullet and 375Ruger had come out 50 years ago, the 338s would have had quite stiff competition.

But that .375 250 grain is a little light if turned on a buffalo. (It will work, of course, as I've shot buffalo with 250 NP .338 back in the day.) The Rigby doesn't give up much in flatness with the 350 grain at 2800 fps, only -0.6" at 300yards and -1" at 400 yards. This latter 350 grain bullet is more reassuring for buffalo. It expands reliably and penetrates deep deep deep.

A Winchester 70 in 416 Rem Mag made enough sense to me to purchase one and drag it all over Africa...

Before you even consider which make of rifle to buy, I strongly recommend taking your neighbor up on his offer (ABOVE) to let you shoot his .375 and .416. If I were you, I'd buy a box of ammo for each, and shoot each one 20 rounds...maybe 5 rounds each, per session, for 4 sessions.

A lot of folks are comfortable with a .375, and totally out of their tolerance level with a .416 or anything bigger. The same is true with bullet weights. Some folks have no trouble at all with .375 H&H 270 grain bullet loads, but find the 300 grain bullets punishing, etc.

That may change with practice shooting the heavier rifles....one man seems to adapt himself to the big cartridges, while the next guy develops a dreadful recoil sensativity which grows by leaps and bounds as he is kicked by his "slightly too big" rifle.

If you are one of the fortunate folks who grows into the recoil absorption, you can always trade your rifle for a bigger one a few years down the road.

quote:

A lot of folks are comfortable with a .375, and totally out of their tolerance level with a .416 or anything bigger. The same is true with bullet weights. Some folks have no trouble at all with .375 H&H 270 grain bullet loads, but find the 300 grain bullets punishing, etc.

I can feel a difference between 270 and 300 grain bullets in my .375 H&H. Only 10% difference but I know I can feel it. Only other rifle I feel a difference in bullet weight with is my .243. There I can feel a difference between lighter varmint bullets and the 100 grainers.

Get a .375 to start. You won't regret it.

LWD

Funny how different folks respond to that issue. I enjoy shooting the 300s at about 2350 fps. I invariably load the 270 grain bullet up around 2700 and they kick the snot outta me at that speed. Much more unpleasant than the 300s. I suppose the lesson is obvious to all but for some reason I just have to hot rod light bullets. No discipline at all!

I also would opt for the Ruger Hawkeys African.It has it all, doesn't weigh too much, balances right, and you can't beat the case design...

I would opt for the .416 Ruger myself, but if its a one time trip for buffalo then the .375 Ruger is the best bet as it is a great US rifle also.

You cannot go wrong with either the.375 H&H or Ruger as their ballistics are essentially identical. The Win. M70 or Ruger are both superb rifles with the former more highly finished. With good marksmanship your intended game will be well handled with the .375's though the .416 Rem. is a bigger club. Cost of ammunition and recoil are decidedly lower with the .375. I would start there and work upward or find out no change is necessary. Bullet placement is the most important criterion.

I do like the looks of the Ruger Hawkeye Alaskan in .375 Ruger for a "starter/budget" BB rifle.

Wade: I can't vouch for the Ruger Hawkeyes -- I have handled but not shot them and Ray is right about the trim lines. That said, I have had a couple of CZs in .375 and .416 Rigby, and my current .375, one of the new South Carolina Winchester Model 70s, beats the CZ in spades. It handles nicely, has a fabulous trigger, has a three-position wing safety and seems to soak up recoil. If you could handle all three brands of rifle side by side, I think you'd agree.

For an econo-box big bore consider the following: A Vz24 Mauser action with a pre threaded and short chambered Brownells .458 win Mag barrel in a Plastic stock. Any decent smith should be able to finish chamber it for you and do the mag,extractor,bolt face and rail work. I did one of these for myself and it took all of 3 hrs of work. Yes, 3 hrs! D&T for scope mounts and put a 2.5X leupold compact on it. Spray the gun with Brownells Alumahyde and its done.
I think I had all of $400 in mine and it shot MOA groups and actually looked great.
As with most of my homebrew guns, I let a friend shoot it and money started talking. I sold it to him in a weak moment. It was a very nice gun that was what I'd call a real working gun. Beautiful to carry and shoot and something you'd not be afraid to carry in the bush all day.-Rob

One ready to go for $1150 with shipping

http://www.gunbroker.com/Aucti....aspx?Item=239239310

Bone stock but nothing wrong with it:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Aucti....aspx?Item=239867111

Meat and taters

http://www.gunbroker.com/Aucti....aspx?Item=240138137

Not CRF but looks handy

http://www.gunbroker.com/Aucti....aspx?Item=240373239

More than you were wanting to spend but had to throw it in!

http://www.gunbroker.com/Aucti....aspx?Item=240074489

Ed

Jeeeez Rob thats plumb scary!!!

Ray- Whats scary? -Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:

quote:

Originally posted by Eland Slayer:
I have never considered myself to be recoil sensitive.....but the heaviest calibers I shoot are 300 Win and 45-70 Govt. So I'm sure I am stepping into a whole new level of recoil.

I find the recoil of my .375 H&H rifle less intense than that from Marlin's .45-70. The .375 is a great caliber in all regards.

I'll have to second that.I have three Marlin 45-70's that will hurt with hot loads. My CZ .375 H&H is a pussycat, I enjoy shooting it more than my Win 70 30-06.

quote:

Originally posted by Caretaker:
It appears I can't spell for shit tonight...go here for 375HH for $700

http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100113323

Early last year I picked up that exact gun, brown laminate 375H&H model 798 for about $430. Dealer had a couple of those, and about 5-6 in 458win for the same price. For that price, it was a steal. Lapped the action to smooth out the roughness. 26" is a little long for my taste, but for the price, I wont complain. I wouldnt pay the high prices people are asking for them now. I'd just get the winchester safari, and be done with it.