Hi,
My first new post as a AR member! Greetings to you all....

Anyways -
I have a CZ 550 in 458 Win Mag, fitted with 30mm Warne rings and a Burris 1.5-6x scope. It is a very good shooter, and recoil is very manageable. Shoots 1.5" @ 100 yds with Hornady 500-grs.

But, as you know, no gun can stay stock or smaller than it should. I was considering getting it rechambered in 460 weatherby. The dimensions of the cartridge appear to fit well in the gun, bolt face is larger at .583 vs. the .532 of the 458 WM/Lott, but much smaller than the problematic Gibbs face (.640 I believe?). The OAL of the cartridges looks OK too, the weatherby being 3.75 vs. 3.64
I would consider a bigger bore cartridge but the gun shoots very well with the stock barrel, and bullet availability is just so much better and cheaper for a 458....

Any thoughts?

me... it's a very simple and cheap thing to rechamber for the 458 lott, and work up those loads... and then, if you like, you can still do a weatherby.

it's really really really easy , fast, cheap, and with no more feeding issues ---probably--- than your 458

jeffe

Ream it out, open and deepen the bolt face, and rock and roll!

Hey, I didn't realize there were any gun owners in Madison Wisconsin!

quote:

Originally posted by mic2377:
Hi,
My first new post as a AR member! Greetings to you all....

Anyways -
I have a CZ 550 in 458 Win Mag, fitted with 30mm Warne rings and a Burris 1.5-6x scope. It is a very good shooter, and recoil is very manageable. Shoots 1.5" @ 100 yds with Hornady 500-grs.

But, as you know, no gun can stay stock or smaller than it should. I was considering getting it rechambered in 460 weatherby. The dimensions of the cartridge appear to fit well in the gun, bolt face is larger at .583 vs. the .532 of the 458 WM/Lott, but much smaller than the problematic Gibbs face (.640 I believe?). The OAL of the cartridges looks OK too, the weatherby being 3.75 vs. 3.64
I would consider a bigger bore cartridge but the gun shoots very well with the stock barrel, and bullet availability is just so much better and cheaper for a 458....

Any thoughts?

I would go with the Lott as you have the option to shoot 458 win mag if you don't have Lott amo avaliable. Personaley I think the lott will do aneythig the 460 will do.
Bill

what Jeffe said...the Lott is just a reamer away. The Wby will have to have the feed rails opened up, a totally new box made/bought, the boltface opened up, AND you will lose one round magazine capacity. The Lott is none of the above. From all reports, the 458Lott is becoming the DGR of choice by PH in Africa.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
me... it's a very simple and cheap thing to rechamber for the 458 lott, and work up those loads... and then, if you like, you can still do a weatherby.

it's really really really easy , fast, cheap, and with no more feeding issues ---probably--- than your 458

jeffe

quote:

what Jeffe said...the Lott is just a reamer away. The Wby will have to have the feed rails opened up, a totally new box made/bought, the boltface opened up, AND you will lose one round magazine capacity. The Lott is none of the above. From all reports, the 458Lott is becoming the DGR of choice by PH in Africa.

Rich

Makes a "Lott" of sense to me! I would go with their idea as well!

Just to confuse you....................I did the lott treatment to my cz .458 winnie but inhind site would have loved the .450 Rigby............no belt and neally a .460 W

No new magazine box is needed. The feed ramp will most likely require no modifications either, nor will the rails. The magazine capacity will almost certainly be 4. It is really an easy conversion to the 460 WM, as I stated before, ream out the chamber, open and deepen the bolt face. That should do it.

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
No new magazine box is needed. The feed ramp will most likely require no modifications either, nor will the rails. The magazine capacity will almost certainly be 4. It is really an easy conversion to the 460 WM, as I stated before, ream out the chamber, open and deepen the bolt face. That should do it.

scott,
let's see a picture of your 460 weatherby.. you have NO CLUE as to the work difference.. it's a rather large job to get it right, vs a 2 hour job to have a lott perfect.

jeffe

jeffeosso,

The work difference is ONLY that the Weatrherby conversion requires that the bolt face needs opened and deepened. The Lott may actually require some additional feed ramp mod, but I highly doubt it.

I have never owned a CZ550 in 460 Weatherby magnum, that is true (my only 460 was a Weatherby MkV); however, I know of a CZ550 Safari which was converted to 460 Weatherby from a 458 Winnie. The conversion is exactly as I stated.

Have a nice day.

scott,
the fact is, you haven't done or had done the work required to go to a webby... it's a good deal more, and yes, dude, it does require a different box.. the rigby box is DIFFERENT than the 375/458... it doesn't have ribs on the side to correctly set the box geometery.

here's a issue with your expectations... if you think a lott MIGHT require feeding work, you can be certain that the webby will... they aren't even related, other than bullet diameter.

a lott is run a reamer in, verify feeding, might need the littlest change on the left rail.

a webby is a beast of another color.. it's larger diameter case, larger head, REBATED RIM, and mag geometery dictate a multi hour, if not days, bill with the smith.

i've taken the 458 to 470 mbogo... and it's work, sir. i've taken the 458 to lott, and it's nothing but cutting the chamber .350 ish deeper

Jeff,

I have worked up loads for several CZ550, and the two 416 Rigbys I have worked had magazine boxed FACTORY stamped 375 H&H. The magazine dimensions were recorded and were identical to the one 458 Win mag and later 460 Weatherby conversion (both of which had magazine boxes factory stamped 375). I sometimes wonder if you have much experience with the CZ Safari products. These were older rifles, so it is entirely possible that CZ has made a modification to their designs, but I am unaware of any.

The larger diameter of the Weatherby case pushed the centerline of cartridge, as it sits in the magazine box, closer to centerline of bore. That means that the cartridge will have a lower probability of interference with the feed ramp. Now the feed rails should be alright as is, since they are identical to the 416 Rigby (even though the rifle is a 458 Win).

Have a nice day.

scott,
let's see a couple pics... you can email them to me and i'll post them for you, since you may not remember how to post pics... but let's not do the 500 AHR fiasco again, shall we... where you posted pics of a rifle you did not own, and/or attempted to get a replacement stock for free.

remember, scott, i am well aware of all the ids you have posted under...

you are incorrect on feeding... and on the cz parts... a 458 win cz has a ribbed mag... that's the older design... a webby has an entirely different body diameter... and may or may NOT even catch on the second round, performing an amazing top mag dump, filling the air with loaded cases. thank goodness you are free with admitting you haven't done this work, as you don't have a clue and would either get someone hurt or damage their firearms... or, most likely case, ruin a perfectly feeding rifle.

sigh.. please, do give up trying to post as if you have done gun work... every knows you have not, and you'll have a melt down, and admit it, in a couple weeks...

jeffe

mic 2377, go with the Lott.

Cheap:
gunsmtihing bill
brass
dies

Plus you get to keep the same mag capacity as it is now.

Hog Killer

scott,

stick to things you can verify by handling in person, please do not get the troll banner waving again. Rule of thumb is that the frame rails need to be opened up by half the diameter of the larger round, and ditto for milling the magazine follower. Then, we can get to the feed ramp, and making or buying a new mag box like the big Wby requires. I am up to my ears right now with converting P17's, M30's, and a Model of 1934 to take Rigby and Gibbs sized cartridges in the shop. Under very close scrutiny by the old man I must add.

The conversion, actually just a rechambering job, no metal work on the action is involved, is waaaay simple. Run the reamer in and get the headspace right. Remark the barrel and go shoot the rifle...end of story

Rich

Hey!
I havent studied the difference between the "new" 550 VS.the "old" 602, if there is any, but I own a perfectly feeding 460 Wby buildt on the ZKK602.
I dont know if the barrel has enough steel in the chamber area to just go up to 460wby. The 460 is much longer, and fatter. I bought mine as it is, but the rails is opened. Thats for sure.

Heres a thot. Buy a CZ 550 Saf. Mag.. in 416 Rigby , Pull the barrel and sell it to someone who wants one. Have the 458 win barrel reamed out to 460 Whby. {{{ with the factory throat}}}}} The magizine box may work perfactly and if not is alot closer to doing so . The rails are pretty close also, and the bolt face and extractor are correct. Put a good fiberglass stock with a Kick EEZE mag recoil pad . And a Holland quick discharge muzzel brake on it . Unless your arms are as long as an albatrosses wings set the LOP to 12 15/16" ........................................ Next get 500 rnds of brass and develop some loads with 500 gr X bullets moly coated And some monometal solids Moly coated also . Were it me I would set the muz vel @ 2450 fps and regulate the sights for that.. Make up about a thousand rounds and move to Africa. Ya can,t move back till you run out of ammo....................... Not just blastin either......... Take the action remaining and put a stainless 12" twist 375 barrel on it and ream it to 375 Whby. .. I've thot about doing that with my 458 lott .. But I like the 500 A-Square too much to make up a 460.. Unless I make up a 500 then a 460.. There,s an idea !!!!!!!!!!!!! gumboot out...

quote:

Unless your arms are as long as an albatrosses wings set the LOP to 12 15/16"

What is the reasoning behind this?

Sorry but I forgot something.. When my 458 lott CZ 550 Saf. Mag. was new it wouldn,t feed worth beans . And definately not well enough to hunt bear with............................... I worked the rails over a bit and when it got to feeding well . I was suprised to find that it also fed 378 whby ammo well................ When new the only thing it would feed was 375 H&H..And that not a hundred percent...........................................I had to rework my 300 win over a tiny bit ,, mainly just shined it up and it feeds 416 Rem great................... Cost of the work,,,,,,, Nothing as I already had a chainsaw round file, and a couple diamond knife sharpeners.......................... I try to keep it simple as that matches me.............gb out..

The short length of pull makes the rifle much easier to shoot.. essespecially a heavier rifle. when shooting offhand or from knealing It also helps to relax the pectoral muscle so that there is a better pocket formed by the deltoid muscle....... .................... My experience with people shooting larger cal rifles is they can,t hit well with them because they get kicked. Because the gun isn,t set up for them properly.......... gumboot over

My 460 is on a 602. Required chamber, bolt and rail work. If I was gonna do it again I'd go 458 Lott or 450 Rigby. (Rigby round wasn't released at that date)

quote:

Originally posted by mic2377:
Hi,
My first new post as a AR member! Greetings to you all....

Anyways -
I have a CZ 550 in 458 Win Mag, fitted with 30mm Warne rings and a Burris 1.5-6x scope. It is a very good shooter, and recoil is very manageable. Shoots 1.5" @ 100 yds with Hornady 500-grs.

But, as you know, no gun can stay stock or smaller than it should. I was considering getting it rechambered in 460 weatherby. The dimensions of the cartridge appear to fit well in the gun, bolt face is larger at .583 vs. the .532 of the 458 WM/Lott, but much smaller than the problematic Gibbs face (.640 I believe?). The OAL of the cartridges looks OK too, the weatherby being 3.75 vs. 3.64
I would consider a bigger bore cartridge but the gun shoots very well with the stock barrel, and bullet availability is just so much better and cheaper for a 458....

Any thoughts?

In all seriousness have you checked the 458 AR?

Thanks for all the input....

From what I understand, the Lott is a real easy fit, no work needs to be done to the mag or feed ramps. Just the chamber needs to be extended. Part of my reason to consider the 460 was that my crappy local gunsmith wanted to charge me over $250-300 to rechamber in Lott, and I had figured that the Weatherby would be not much more.

Plus, I have a hunch the longer Lott will actually feed BETTER than the WM rounds, which slide around alot under recoil in that cavernous mag. In specific, the Winchester 510-gr softpoints, which have a large exposed tip, feed like SHIT. Hornady's have a more rounded, protected, profile which feeds more like a solid and works OK.

Gunboot - I am 6'4" so the stock LOP fits me well, if not being a little small... hence why I also not much bothered by recoil. I will be crossbolting the stock after conversion, though.

ScottS - I am probably the only big-bore rifle owner in all of madison. God, what the liberals would say if they saw my 460 S&W BFR!!!

I didn't anticipate rail work being necessary, that is the kicker which makes the Lott the sensible choice now that I have proper information, instead of my mis-informed local 'smith. Any suggestions for a decent 'smith around this area?

Thanks for all your help....

Shipping it via USPS (half the cost of ups, and the PO won't steal it) is the same across the country. Sending it to Jeffe would work. My guy here I am training under would do it for $100, since it is such a simple task. I am in SW Idaho, and he has a nearly new reamer in the box. Make your day, try and fit some Lotts in the mag box and see if they fit. I only have CZ's in 416 Rigby and 9.3x62 here at the house, so can't say if they will work. If not, the cure is simple and cheap.

You will really like the 10% increase in MV and the temendous ME boost.

Rich

mic2377,

Too bad you aren't closer or I would make up a few 460 Weatherby dumby cartridges and we could run them through your CZ to see if any mag/rail modifications were actually necesary.

Good luck with your project

By the way, a Lott will not give you a 10% increase in muzzle velocity. The muzzle velocity increase will be more like 3.5% to 4%.

quote:

Originally posted by Aussie Dave:
My 460 is on a 602. Required chamber, bolt and rail work. If I was gonna do it again I'd go 458 Lott or 450 Rigby. (Rigby round wasn't released at that date)

scott,
perhaps you aren't aware of the realities of the 458 winmag and the 458 lott.

loaded to saami, the winmag struggles at 2100, sometimes making book of 2150.

the lott struggles at 2300, some bold reloaders ---quite silly, i might add--- swear that they can make 2350

hmm, let's see
2300-2100=200/2100=9.52% pretty darn close to 10%...

the comes reality...

WINCHESTER, who invented the 458 win round, loads 510gr at 2040...
http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/cfrdetail.as...NDU4IFdpbmNoZXN0ZXI=

hornady, the general standard for factory loads for the lott, 500gr at 2300

https://www.hornady.com/shop/?ps_session=9977d6cf819392...9301df6b78e606139146

or a 12.75% increase in MV

are you certain you've done this before, or even loaded a lott or winmag case?

jeffe

Jeffeosso,

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the realities of internal ballisitcs.

458 Win mag case capacity ~ 93 gr H2O
458 Lott case capacity ~ 106 gr H2O

The percentage difference in case capacities is ~ 14%. Your muzzle velocity will increase ~ one fourth the percentage of case capacity increase (one third if you are extremely lucky). So your muzzle velocity, keeping pressures constant mind you (lets say 60-62 ksi), will increase between 14/4 = 3.5% to 14/3 = 4.6%.

Like I have said before you can believe any fairy tale you like.

Have a nice day.

scott,
are you saying winchester AND hornady are incorrect in their ballistics data? 2040 vs 2300.

both loads have been chronoed and reported, from various sources, right here on ar


jeffe

I would agree with jeffe on this subject.

The factory winchester loads represent about the maximum load which can be achieved via handloading with that bullet weight, without compressing the powder charge (bad news).

The hornady loads for the Lott are apparently loaded to the same 2260 fps as the WM. I am positive Hornady uses a proprietary powder for this, hence why there is no hope for a handloader to achieve this velocity in the WM.
I can also say that the hornady WM loads have noticeably greater recoil than the Winchester stuff.

Scott - I would have to side with Jeffe on this one. The difference in case capacity and the resulting calculations don't take into account such things as powder compression, which I believe is responsible for the larger than expected velocity disparity. It certainly exists....

Idaho - how would this shipping thing go? Don't you need an FFL to send a barreled action? Or just the barrel? I am going to shop around in a 6-hr driving radius to see what I can find.

Keep the posts coming, I like the lively discussion!

Would anyone have a couple of Weatherby and Lott empties, maybe some spent cases which are no longer reloadable? I would like to check out all of the above issues myself. Send me an email at aclook@wisc.edu if you have any leads.

cheers~

Mic
sorry your thread got pulled into this. Scott has a cycle of posting things he doesn't know, saying he's leaving forever, then coming back, misunderstanding other's posts.

The lott should be a very quick-send out and get reamed, job. if you are shipping to a gunsmith, please check with him first on how he would like it shipped.

it's quick, it's easy, and it's got the additive advantage that you CAN shoot winmag cases, for plinking or in a jam, and you've lost your ammo.

get the lott, load it to 2250 with rem 405's, and shoot it till you can't stand looking at it anymore

best of luck.
jeffe

quote:

458 Win mag case capacity ~ 93 gr H2O
458 Lott case capacity ~ 106 gr H2O

Seat a bullet 1/2" deep and both figures will drop about 20 grains of water and thus increase the percentage difference in case capacities.

Then we need to factor in powder suitability for each. One reason the 375 Wby with 300 grainers gains more over a 375 H&H than the difference in case capacity would suggest is that the 4350s, Re19s etc are too slow for the 375 H&H and doubly so when those 300 grainers are spitzers.

Mike

Another vote for the Lott. I've had two (though not on cz's) and it's the easiest way to make a powerful 45 caliber rifle.

Now if you want a bigger 45, I'd agree that you should start with a 416 Rigby. I'd also say, if you were going to rebarrel a 416 Rigby, I'd go past the 460W straight to a 500 A-sq. If you think 500 gr @ 2500 is good, then you'll definately think 600gr at 2500 is better.

Guys- Your all close. Why bother with the .460 WBY when you can just as easily go .500a2. I've done 2 .500a2's on a CZ550 and it is pretty easy. Nevertheless, the following approach has worked for me and should be nearly identical for the .460 WBY. The .375/.416 mag box will work but you have to press ( a good vise is all you need) out and then power file the ribs out of the box to get the right dimensions. Remember take three cartridges hold em together with rubber bands measure the with and length and make sure you have .030 clearance. The rails just need some file work and the ramp needs to be reshaped a bit particularily on the sides. Watch how it feeds, keep the cartridges under the rails firmly and remove as little metal as possible. I'd estimate it would take me 1/2 hr max to get it to work. Remember you'll need a new barrel mounted recoil lug and crossbolts. Of course the bolt face has to be opened up to fit the .378 boltface. re-barrel, chamber and your good to go.-Rob

your thought is valid RGB, but I think micdis is trying for "most bang for the buck" not unlimited bang for the buckx3.

As far as shipping guns via the post office, I just dropped off two rifles for Tiggertate at the PO this morning.
They want a signed copy of the FFL holder it is going to, and a hard case. I insure them, have sent several around the country this year with zero hassles. They have a simple form, and they keep the FFL on file. Whomever you decide on, get the FFL and go happy. I have also shipped two handguns this way.

It is the best way to pick up 200fps for $100 or thereabouts.

regars,

Rich

ScottS,

sorry to intrude into your' reality again so soon, but I have seen a couple of 458wm to 458lott conversions this year. One was an old model 70, originally a 270. He went with the 458wm and then had it redone to Lott. With his 26" barrel no factory loads clocked over 2100fps. With the rechamber he lost 65-70fps shooting winmag in the rifle, and the loads he is using chrono 2275-2300fps. The other was a CZ550 Safari Magnum in 458wm. Same results, an honest 200fps increase.

I hope things get better for you soon...

regards,

Rich

You know I do not dislike you. It is just soooo aggravating when you go from positive contributions and measured responses to fantasizing. Maybe you could try to just be one of the guys with opinions to share. That would be cool as a New Year's Resolution.

If I do Weatherby/Rigby size or bigger cases.
I do single stack. Makes life easier.
And feeds as good as neighbors Wea Mk5,
even on its side. Now the word about
velocity increases. First energy increases,
in straight or small shouldered cases,
to match powder increases, so that means velocity increases about half the percent of
powder increase.Example is 458Win holds
75gr ball powder, 500 gr slug,about 2070 fps.
Lott hold about 90 gr, 20% more, about 10%
more velocity, about 2300.My 458HE 135 gr
ball powder, a little over 70% more, divided
by 2, gives 35% increase in velocity,
over the 458 at 2070, figures about
2800, which is what she chronoed.Ed

I am still a big fan of the Lott converson but I had my handes on one of the 505s at the show in Dallas and it took a couple of people to pull it out of my hands. :

Hey Bill,

tell us about the 505...they have not reached Idaho yet. Did they use the 416 Rigby bolt and open it up or what?

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Hey Bill,

tell us about the 505...they have not reached Idaho yet. Did they use the 416 Rigby bolt and open it up or what?

Rich
DRSS

Rich,
I don’t pretend I know as much as some of the posters on this forum but my impression of the 550 Safari Classics rifles is as follows. I thought they did a nice job on the stock , it seemed to me to be more rounded and with smoother transitions kind of if you had done a smooth and blend of all the angles and sharp edges. Nice wood REALEY nice wood considering they think wood is wood. I was sitting in on a conversation with one of the people from the factory a couple of years ago trying to get them to use nicer wood. We showed them some nice wood like what you might find on a Kimber super American ect. There comment was they use wood.
The 416 bolt would be a good choice to start if you were doing a conversion but I don’t have the rim dimensions handy but I suspect they just bilt bolts for the 505. I did read on there web site the rifles are built to the specifications of the individual hunter. The 505 comes with 1 mercury recoil reducer, can I get a couple more?
I did see this lode data
Westley Richards 525 2310 fps 6260 ft.lbs.
Kynoch (Kynamco) 525 2300 fps 6180 ft.lbs.
A-Square 525 2300 fps 6166 ft.lbs.

505 Gibbs, all bullet weights 600gr FMJ 120.0 gr RL-15 2,325 fps 3.850" Fed LRM guest 600 Grain Barnes Super Solid 570 Grain "X" (drawn down from .510") All with 3 grains Dacron fiber. Federal 215 Gold Match Primers Horneber Brass

Bill

Guys,
My primary reason for this discussion was touched upon by Idaho - max bang for the buck.

If I end up going with a bigger caliber such as the 500a2 I am just going save my pennies for a couple of months to build up a custom rifle on a 550 action, and "pawn off" the .458 WM to my brother, for which it would fulfill his purposes fine as-is for a basic heavy rifle.

Plus, the fact is, the rifle really does shoot damn good as it is. I'll be having a chat with my brother about plans soon.

I am still interested if someone has some spare Lott or Wby cases floating around for me to pick up.

Cheers~