Working up loads for the 10.75, progressing well. With the express sites, 100yds off the bags, over the chrono, six inch 5 shot group around the center of the 8in easy see target. Acceptable accuracy, considering 60yo eyes? I am still working up loads, so have not shot off the sticks or from an off hand sitting position. Do you guys that shoot express type sites expect better? Thanks, Bob

Yes, I expect much better off of bags. But my handicap is only 48yr old eyes.

What do the sights look like? There are good and there are really bad express style sights. The Brit style wide V and bead is very good. But you ought to file the bead flat at about a 30* angle off vertical, with the low portion of the bead closest the breach and the high portion closest the muzzle. Without the filing, the way light plays off the rounded bead will add inches to your groups.

When you can keep all of your shots in an 8" or even 10" circle at 100yds off hand or off sticks, you will be ready for that shot, imo. Buff make big targets.

BTW, if 100yds is tough on your eyes, you might find that your group size decreases more than proportionately at 50yds. If so, you would do well to do your load development at 50yds.

I have found that off bags I can shoot about as well as the rifle can with express sights at 50yds, but that isn't the case at 100yds, where my eyes induce some error. The good news is that the error induced by my eyes' limitations, noteable from bags, is not really noticeable from sticks or from off hand. Lost or muted by the other factors, I think.

JPK

JPK

JPK, The day before, I shot groups over the chrono at 50yds, measuring 1.2 inches. The sites are NECG on intergral island and front ramp. I can't remember the size of the gold front bead, but it is the larger of the two offered. I am considering an EAW side mount and a 2.5x steel tube Weaver I bought years ago and is still new in box.

VFR1

Try this, when you get you load worked up shoot at real animal looking targets.

Lifesize Deer tagets are usually the easiest to find.

Once you are putting all your shots in the vital area it will boost your confidence.

Shoot at 50, 75 and 100.

I even do some fast work at 25 yards.

Also practice reloading and topping off the magazine, even when moving.

I'm scheduled for my first Cape Buffalo hunt in Mozambique in September. Trying to tune up my shooting, but not sure what I need to be striving for. I'm shooting a 416 Rem. Mag and shooting about 3" off the sticks with Factory Federal 400 grain Sledgehammers. Any suggestions as to what i need to be doing to enhance my preparation. Thanks.

Marc

Marc , 3' @ 100 yrds is fine . But an important thing is to be able to get a good shot off quickly , but not rushed ... And have your rifle operate automatically in your hands , without alot of lookin , fumbelin and wondering ............ What expanding bullet are you going to be hunting with ???...... A very good practice load is a 350 gr Speer H C @ 2400 fps and mine have all shot very close to the same poi........Don,t shoot too many rounds per range session , but have LOTS AND LOTS of range sessions ...
.. Getting a pretty good shot of right now is more important than shooting a gnat in the eye and taking 10 or 20 seconds to do it ..........

Marc, That's good shooting off the sticks. I will need the low power scope to do as well, as the 8in black bull looks pretty small to me at 100yds over the open sights. I am thinking the EAW side mount with a 2.5X scope would be about sweet for this rifle. Bob

Guys,

Sorry, to be honest my 3" off the sticks was @ 50 yards. Wish it was at 100, but tain't so. I'm using a Schmidt and Bender Red Dot 1.5 x 4.
Marc

Gumboot 458,

I'll be using trophy Bonded Bear Claws. Thanks to all for the tips. My first shot off the sticks is fairly quick, less so on the subsequent shots because I have to readjust the sticks. Should I try shooting off hand on subsequent shots?

Thanks.

Marc

quote:

Originally posted by MarcF:
Gumboot 458,

I'll be using trophy Bonded Bear Claws. Thanks to all for the tips. My first shot off the sticks is fairly quick, less so on the subsequent shots because I have to readjust the sticks. Should I try shooting off hand on subsequent shots?

Thanks.

Marc

Marc,

I had never used "sticks" before but I've been practicing with them in anticipation of my September safari. I can now work the bolt as fast (maybe even faster) on the sticks as I could offhand. In fact, I like this so much I might make it my shooting style for everything. Now my "sticks" are really a Stony Point shooting tripod but similar idea.

I don't know what specific technique you are using on the sticks, but from the folk here on AR, I adopted basically the same stance and hold I use for offhand shooting but I rest my my left hand holding the forearm of the stock on the tripod. Basically all the tripod is doing is supporting my free hand.

I'm sure people with real experience will chime in, but I plan on using the sticks for every shot and I plan to keep the lead (brass, copper, unobtanium) flying until I run out of ammo or the PH says "Hamburger".

Good luck and have fun.

I don't think a second shot off sticks is as fast as you will need. Every buffalo I shot took off at the first shot and a quick second shot is needed. I think the sticks would not permit a second shot unless he ran a short distance and stopped. I haven't had any stop yet to use the sticks a second time. I would practice first shot from sticks with a quick second shot offhand.

quote:

Originally posted by LJS:
I don't think a second shot off sticks is as fast as you will need. Every buffalo I shot took off at the first shot and a quick second shot is needed. I think the sticks would not permit a second shot unless he ran a short distance and stopped. I haven't had any stop yet to use the sticks a second time. I would practice first shot from sticks with a quick second shot offhand.

X2

quote:

Originally posted by VFR1:
JPK, The day before, I shot groups over the chrono at 50yds, measuring 1.2 inches. The sites are NECG on intergral island and front ramp. I can't remember the size of the gold front bead, but it is the larger of the two offered. I am considering an EAW side mount and a 2.5x steel tube Weaver I bought years ago and is still new in box.

Here is a tip bound to improve your grouping for load development at 50 or 100yds or any range:

Use a 6:00 hold on the bull! Its very difficult to hold the center of the bull with a bead sight, especially a larger bead, and horizontal or vertical deviation is going to happen. When you use a 6:00 hold, you can easily see when your bead is "intruding" into the bull or when your holding low since you can see white paper between the bead and the bull. For the horizontal, it much easier to see when your holding center of the 6:00 POA as well since it easy to see the bull above the bead and pick up when its wandered off center.

For your first buff, a low power scope is a good idea, especially in good QD mounts.

Some buff areas offer typically short shooting, some longer ranges, best to be prepared and have a choice. My own limit for a first shot on a buff would be about 125yds. But I wouldn't take a shot that long today - don't need another buff, just want to get close for the fun. That might not be the case ofr a fellow and his first buff, especially if finding a good buff is taking time.

As sson as you are finished load development, get off the bench and the bags and start shooting off sticks and offhand! Shoot a little prone too, its not an everyday position in most of Africa, but its been handy for me more than once.

Gumboot has the right idea about making unrushed but quick shots. Many fellows are too slow and deliberate.

MarkF,

3" off sticks at 50yds is pretty fair, plenty sufficient for many shot opportunities. If you can keep it to 6" at 100, you are set. As I mentioned earlier, buff are not small targets.

JPK

Marc, Who are you hunting with in Moz?

IMO, that is about as far as you are going to be effective shooting w/ open sights. I limit myself to 75yds w/ open sights as I can do about that off sticks.

VFR1:

Luwire Safaris. Bruce Grant of Grant Adventures set the deal up. Last year my buddy, hunting in the same concession, got a gnarly 45" dugga boy. His wife also took 2 SCI gold sables. The concessions are adjacent to the Lugenda River, across from the Niassa Reserve. I'm counting the days, working on getting in shape; clearing my workload so I can enjoy my hunt, and trying to improve my shooting.

To answer you question, I'd not be happy with a 6in group offhand at 100yrds much less off of the bench or sticks. You should be able to do half that. Personally I dont like sticks and prefer to shoot offhand to 75 yrds. After that I find a tree or other solid rest to shoot from. Much better than sticks.-Rob

I'll have to admit, the guys shooting around me were doing better with their AR15 "space guns" at 200yds, off hand with their shooting jackets, etc. You guys are much better shots than myself. I'll need to limited my shots to 50-60yds with this rifle or mount the scope. Rob, are you saying I should be shooting 3in groups off hand at 100yds with my express sight equiped 10.75? You should change your name to Quigley

A heavy rifle off hand (really more of an issue if it's heavy on the front end) at 100 yards with 6' groups is really not that bad and I'm shooting with 27-year-old eyes... don't let them get you down. You'll improve with time and refined loads. I'm no Doc Holiday either, but give me a lead sled and I'm no daisy

Maybe give the guys with "space guns" a little taste of big bore recoil and see what sort accuracy they get off hand...

quote:

Originally posted by VFR1:
I'll have to admit, the guys shooting around me were doing better with their AR15 "space guns" at 200yds, off hand with their shooting jackets, etc. You guys are much better shots than myself. I'll need to limited my shots to 50-60yds with this rifle or mount the scope. Rob, are you saying I should be shooting 3in groups off hand at 100yds with my express sight equiped 10.75? You should change your name to Quigley

Don't feel bad, very few rifles make sense to a shooter the first time out. You will be able to hit a 3" circle 10 out of 10 with practice. It may take 100 rds or so, but it will happen.

John

Before anyone goes about kicking themselves, remember that if you can hit the lid of a 5 gal bucket you can keep your POI within the vital area of a buff - broadside. Better shooting allows more opportunities, like front on or partially obscured by brush where the target is smaller.

Also, a fellow shooting a six inch group off sticks or freehand who knows where the vitals are is better off than a fellow who can shoot smaller but doesn't know where the vitals are, so study "The Perfect Shot" or some other placement guide. Vitals for African animals tend to be a bit lower and a bit further foward than our deer.

So practice to get better but don't sweat it if you don't make the Quigley grade.

BTW, those guys shooting with apperatures have a heck of an advantage over express sights, even good ones.

JPK

Yup- 3 inches offhand at 100 yrds. 2 is better yet. Seriously you actually can do it and with express sights too. I've seen much better. Practice enough and you will amaze yourself. - Rob

Under the excitement of the hunt, accuracy rarely increases! A pie plate is the size of buff vitals, but adrenaline shrinks everything.

John

Come on now! A pie plate, 8", 9"? That better describes the vitals of our local whitetails.

A buff heart alone would barely fit on an 8" or 9" plate, and it would overhang at the top and bottom.

I gotta agree that adreneline, excitement don't add to shooting accuracy. But buff are still big targets!

Nothing to be casual about, definitely something to work on, but nothing to sweat about if you're not up to Quigley standards, from field positions, when it is time to go.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Come on now! A pie plate, 8", 9"? That better describes the vitals of our local whitetails.

A buff heart alone would barely fit on an 8" or 9" plate, and it would overhang at the top and bottom.

I gotta agree that adreneline, excitement don't add to shooting accuracy. But buff are still big targets!

Nothing to be casual about, definitely something to work on, but nothing to sweat about if you're not up to Quigley standards, from field positions, when it is time to go.

JPK

I'll give you that! This is a case of garbage in, garbage out. I am not sure where it came from, but I guess it would depend if you have a broadside, a quartering to, or head on shot.

John

2 inches at 100yds, off hand with an open sight DG rifle We are way past Quigly--we're talking Daniel Boone now.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Bore Boar Hunter:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Come on now! A pie plate, 8", 9"? That better describes the vitals of our local whitetails.

A buff heart alone would barely fit on an 8" or 9" plate, and it would overhang at the top and bottom.

I gotta agree that adreneline, excitement don't add to shooting accuracy. But buff are still big targets!

Nothing to be casual about, definitely something to work on, but nothing to sweat about if you're not up to Quigley standards, from field positions, when it is time to go.

JPK

I'll give you that! This is a case of garbage in, garbage out. I am not sure where it came from, but I guess it would depend if you have a broadside, a quartering to, or head on shot.

John

Big Bore Boar Hunter,

Your previous post is where the pie plate reference came from: "A pie plate is the size of buff vitals"

Maybe y'all in Northern Califorinia have really big pies?

Maybe a front on shot would give a target the size of one of our pie plates, but oblong and longer top to bottom, but broadside its closer to the whole five gallon bucket.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Before anyone goes about kicking themselves, remember that if you can hit the lid of a 5 gal bucket you can keep your POI within the vital area of a buff - broadside. Better shooting allows more opportunities, like front on or partially obscured by brush where the target is smaller.

Also, a fellow shooting a six inch group off sticks or freehand who knows where the vitals are is better off than a fellow who can shoot smaller but doesn't know where the vitals are, so study "The Perfect Shot" or some other placement guide. Vitals for African animals tend to be a bit lower and a bit further foward than our deer.


JPK

If all I could shoot was 5gal bucket groups at 100yds, then I would not be shooting @ buffalo that far. You have zero room for erro w/ such porr shooting. I can't shoot like Rob, but 6" offhand is quite good especially if done in a hurry. Open sights, just get closer. There is no such thing as too close for buff.

Fred338,

You and I are in complete accord. The quote you selected was in response to allusions that you have to be a competition class shooter to hunt buff and that buff are a tough target size wise.

Here is my post on what makes for adequate and more ability for most buff hunting:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

3" off sticks at 50yds is pretty fair, plenty sufficient for many shot opportunities. If you can keep it to 6" at 100, you are set. As I mentioned earlier, buff are not small targets.

JPK

Given your post, you gotta agree with that, eh?

JPK

I completely agree with the get closer and then get closer yet philosophy. However your missing my point. If you shoot 6" at 100 yrds when your not stressed, you'll shoot 12-18 inches or worse when the adrenaline is flowing. Learning to shoot tight groups and more importantly NOT ACCEPTING poor shooting is the first step to shooting well. Sorry, but somethings wrong if you only can shoot 6" at 100yrds and yes with express sights from a gun which is capable of far better. If its not, well thats another story.
My rule is first find out what the gun is truly capable of off the bench and with the loads you hunt with. Then Offhand you should be able to do 2X that easily. If you cant see well enough then dont use open sights or limit yourself to the distance where you can. Trouble with most shooters is they don't shoot enough offhand and rely too much on gimics and technology. The PH's want you to shoot off sticks because they are pretty certain you cant shoot offhand well enough for even a Buff! BTW, I'm not a great shot but way way above average, BECAUSE I GET LOTS OF TRIGGER TIME and usually do it OFFHAND!
I also know my limits and as I said on game if its over 75 yrds, I find a solid rest like a tree, rock termite mound, you know cover and steady support. Yup, I can shoot offhand well over 100yrds and there are many guys here who have in fact seen me do it on game. But I DONT shoot that far offhand if I can possibly GET CLOSER or find a rest. -Rob

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:


Maybe a front on shot would give a target the size of one of our pie plates, but oblong and longer top to bottom, but broadside its closer to the whole five gallon bucket.

JPK

Chicago is the land of big pie plates (they call pizzas pies there).

I would venture that as it was relayed to me, be prepared to take a non broadside shot. That would make sense. A cape buffalo gut pile would be the size of a good wheel barrel, and at least a third being heart, lungs and spine I'm sure. If I were to really think about that statement, it would only hold true on a quartering to shot, the presentation seems to be about right for that. Good call on BS for that one!

Still I would try to get into 3" groups at 100 yds, by that time, you will be comfortable with your rifle and will be less likely to fudge it when the s hits the fan. The biggest killer to offhand accuracy is time, if you know you can bang it in a 3" circle at 100 yds, your shots will be quicker and you will be less likely to miss. If you are marginal on your shots, you will take longer to shoot and will be more likely to loaf the shot, and I hear PHs still get upset when they have to chase after a gut-shot Mbogo.

Despite my training and practice, I have muffed some shots pretty bad. Two years ago I shot the back shoulder of a boar and swore I hit the front shoulder, and they were only 3 feet apart. Thats the problem with 3x scopes I guess, you lose sight of the bigger picture. But it was a great shot on the wrong shoulder! I have missed a deer at 125 yds one year only to take one at 300 the next day. I blame youth for that one (more likely mismatched ammo, I didn't check back then). But I digress, practice makes perfect, the better you are, the less likely you will be telling embarassing stories on AR.

John

Shooting the 3 inch groups is not a problem with my 300H&H with a 4x Leupold or the .458 with a 1.5-5. The open sights are where the problem lies. Who knows, with a ghost ring type sight, I might do a little better. For those of you that are familiar with side mounts, do you favor the EAW, G&H or the Jaeger? Thanks, Bob

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Yup- 3 inches offhand at 100 yrds. 2 is better yet. Seriously you actually can do it and with express sights too. I've seen much better. Practice enough and you will amaze yourself. - Rob

Get a litle serious.

That's equivalent to a 6" group at 200 yards. Anyone who can do that 20 shots in a row can shoot 200 out of 200 possible and win the national championships at Camp Perry.

I'll bet none of your spacegun shooters can do that. I hold a Master card in NRA Highpower and I can't do that.

If you can group 6" or 8" off hand at 100 yards most of the time, you're doing good. I can do that and I killed a Cape Buffalo. Remember a buffalo is a lot larger than a deer.

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Yup- 3 inches offhand at 100 yrds. 2 is better yet. Seriously you actually can do it and with express sights too. I've seen much better. Practice enough and you will amaze yourself. - Rob

Get a litle serious.

That's equivalent to a 6" group at 200 yards. Anyone who can do that 20 shots in a row can shoot 200 out of 200 possible and win the national championships at Camp Perry.

I'll bet none of your spacegun shooters can do that. I hold a Master card in NRA Highpower and I can't do that.

If you can group 6" or 8" off hand at 100 yards most of the time, you're doing good. I can do that and I killed a Cape Buffalo. Remember a buffalo is a lot larger than a deer.

Shooting 3" off-hand at 100 yds is not the same as 6" at 200 yds! Quite a bit different. And can be done. When practicing weekly with my 44 mag (629 6" 300gr cast performance w269), it was not uncommon to hit a 6" steel reactive target at 100 yds 19 out of 20. And that is offhand with iron sights.

I've followed Rob's posts for a while, one thing I don't see him as is a bullshitter.

John

Shot 12 rounds from sitting position today. That's about all I am good for with the metal butt plate. Still not the Daniel Boone you guys are. Maybe I will try 400gr Swift AFs. The Hornady DGX's sure aint't target bullets. Maybe my rifle will like the Swifts better. Bob

quote:

Originally posted by Big Bore Boar Hunter:

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Yup- 3 inches offhand at 100 yrds. 2 is better yet. Seriously you actually can do it and with express sights too. I've seen much better. Practice enough and you will amaze yourself. - Rob

Get a litle serious.

That's equivalent to a 6" group at 200 yards. Anyone who can do that 20 shots in a row can shoot 200 out of 200 possible and win the national championships at Camp Perry.

I'll bet none of your spacegun shooters can do that. I hold a Master card in NRA Highpower and I can't do that.

If you can group 6" or 8" off hand at 100 yards most of the time, you're doing good. I can do that and I killed a Cape Buffalo. Remember a buffalo is a lot larger than a deer.

Shooting 3" off-hand at 100 yds is not the same as 6" at 200 yds! Quite a bit different. And can be done. When practicing weekly with my 44 mag (629 6" 300gr cast performance w269), it was not uncommon to hit a 6" steel reactive target at 100 yds 19 out of 20. And that is offhand with iron sights.

I've followed Rob's posts for a while, one thing I don't see him as is a bullshitter.

John

John, I think your memory is a bit selective.

Shooting a six inch gong at 200 yards is the angular equivalent of shooting a 1.5" group at 50 yards. When Bill Blankenship won the national handgun championship, with a handgun a lot more accurate than your 629 and shooting offhand, he didn't shoot anywhere that well. I know. I saw his groups. You can look it up.

I am not accusing Rob of being a bullshitter. But he cannot shoot 2" or 3" offhand groups with a hunting rifle at 100 yards except maybe once in awhile as a fluke, and he knows it. He should not try to impress the newcomers by claiming they can't hunt unless they accomplish feats of accuracy which are both unnecessary and not doable.

quote:

Originally posted by VFR1:
Shot 12 rounds from sitting position today. That's about all I am good for with the metal butt plate. Still not the Daniel Boone you guys are. Maybe I will try 400gr Swift AFs. The Hornady DGX's sure aint't target bullets. Maybe my rifle will like the Swifts better. Bob

.
.
.
. Whats with the metal butt plate ????

Don't know how to move pics around from post to post. See 12May2009 10.75x68 posting by VFR on Big Bore forum for pic of rifle and butt plate.

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:

John, I think your memory is a bit selective.

Shooting a six inch gong at 200 yards is the angular equivalent of shooting a 1.5" group at 50 yards. When Bill Blankenship won the national handgun championship, with a handgun a lot more accurate than your 629 and shooting offhand, he didn't shoot anywhere that well. I know. I saw his groups. You can look it up.

I am not accusing Rob of being a bullshitter. But he cannot shoot 2" or 3" offhand groups with a hunting rifle at 100 yards except maybe once in awhile as a fluke, and he knows it. He should not try to impress the newcomers by claiming they can't hunt unless they accomplish feats of accuracy which are both unnecessary and not doable.

Angular equivalent yes, the same as shooting at 100 yds no. No bullshit. If your sight alignment is slightly off, you could be off 1/4" of at 100 yds, at 200 yds that same angle would equate to 1" and at 400 yds, it turns into 4". Sight alignment is critical.

You need to go watch a handgun silhouette match, you would be absolutely amazed at what open sighted pistols can do at 100m.

John

I have to go with Indy on this one. I pulled a Camp Perry results bulletin from a few years back. Over 1100 of the best shooters with the best equipment including the military teams could not place 20 rounds through a 7" 10 ring with a 13" aiming black. High score for one of the matches was 197. There are some cleans shot standing but far and few between.

If you can consistently shoot 6" groups standing with a big bore at a 100 yards that is pretty good in my book.