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What are the best combinations for rifle and cartridge in .416"? A parallel thread has been exploring the virtues of the 375Ruger and it would seem that the 416Ruger is as remarkable a cartridge for the common consumer. Below is a quote from the 375Ruger thread that explains some of the issues. It would seem that after the 416Ruger the next step up would be a 416Rigby. If someone were going to carry around a long action they might as well have the capacity of the Rigby available. The raison d'etre of the Ruger would be its fit to the standard length action and the Ruger controlled-feed platform.
+-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | ||
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I like, and chose the 416 Rigby, the reason, it's performance with LOW PRESSURE. I hunt the tropical north of Australia, with my 458 Lott, loads worked up down south have given me trouble in the past, never have I had this problem with the Rigby. Yes, it was my fault. Enough said. The Ruger could pose the same problem for me, and I would not want to go through sticky bolt lift again in the face of a wounded water buff. I don't use back up generally on cull hunts, it's shoot as many as we can. No doubt the 416 Ruger is a good cartridge, matches the Rigby with standard Rigby loads and the Remington, it will probably stand the test of time, too, just not my cup of tea. Cheers.  | |||
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Yes, the Rigby has legendary low pressure, but then again, even 60,000 psi is a reasonable pressure in a modern bolt action rifle with good brass. I wouldn't blame the 458 Lott as much as the brass or the load. It's why I keep our 416Rigby loads down around 2800fps with 350grain TTSX. Yes, it could do 2900fps maybe even 2950, but what's the point? At 2800fps it's already flat out to 300 yards like our 338WinMag 225TTSX. Back to the 416's: It would seem to me that the 416Remington is the superfluous cartridge among the 416s. The Rigby provides true capacity for either flatter shooting rounds or extremely low pressures. But one pays for this in a larger, heavier rifle. The 416Ruger allows one to carry a lighter rifle while only giving up 200-250fps to the 416RIGBY POTENTIAL. What's more, between the 416Ruger and the 416Rigby, one may now question what the purpose of a 416Remington would be? Even the 416Taylor comes up short. (Pun intended.) The original purpose of the 416 Taylor was to use the "short" 458 WinMag case in a .416" bore. Now that the 416Ruger is available, it would seem to replace both the 416Rem and the 416Taylor. The 416Ruger equals the ballistics of the 416Remington, should they be desired, and it can be dowloaded a bit to duplicate the 416Taylor in a standard length action. Win, win. The only thing that the 416Ruger can't do is to equal the handloading options of the 416Rigby, something not usually taken advantage of, though readily recognized by the old gunwriters (O'Connor, Simpson, Aagard). For even shorter and with a higher pricetag, one can also consider one of the 416B&M's. Very nice little guns. Michael458 occasionally loads them to 416Rem/416Rug/416Rigby(factory) ballistic levels in 20" barrels   (400gn at 2400fps), though the capacity is about 5 grains less than the Ruger and 7 less than the Remmie.+-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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For me the benefit of the 416 Ruger, like the 375 Ruger is the rifle it is housed in. Imo the Guide Gun ( should be Guide Rifle) !!! I've seen a bunch of Marlin Guide Guns hang up once they were fired. To the point where everyone of them has to be taken apart to cycle the action. . Not Something I'm gonna trust my life on. !!!!!!!!!!! No sense any Marlin nuts arguing with me on this. You trust them if you want. Not me. The Guide Gun label leaves a bad taste in my mouth. . I got rid of mine before it could cost me. Back to the 416. . My favorite is the Remington. But not in a Remington rifle. My first one was on a P17 my 2 nd was on a CZ 550 . Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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Now you are talking----   "The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane." Mark Twain TANSTAAFL www.savannagems.com A unique way to own a piece of Africa. DSC Life NRA Life | |||
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I'll second that. My 416B&M is a sweet shooting gun, not to mention very easy to handle with a 20" barrel. | |||
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Ah , nothing against Micheal but the Ruger is set to take the stage. The price tag is good. Now all we need are some high bc 350 gr bullets. There isn't anything wrong with the Taylor. And the Rem mag is just plain Awesome. But no one makes a nice stainless crf rifle in it. The Rigby usually has too slow a twist. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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Barnes TTSX in .416 350gr has .444 BC. | |||
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I Really like the 375 Ruger for my hunting and just recently picked-up a 416 Ruger in the Alaskan version. Since acquiring a couple of 375 Rugers, I have not taken a 375 H&H out of the safe. I had previously purchased a 375 H&H M70 stainless to re-barrel to 416 Remington, but that is no longer in consideration. Though, I might re-barrel and re-stock a Ruger stainless or stainless M70 to 22" barrel 416 Ruger. I might grow as fond of this cartridge as I am the 375 version. For my purposes, of hunting in rather close cover and hiking about, the 416 Ruger fills the billet quiet well with the 20" barrel. The rubber stock may join a couple of others in the corner from 375's. Today, I dropped by the range and fired a couple factory rounds and must say it appeared to be well mannered. Previously when shooting M70's, one in 375 H&H with 300 grain bullets and one in 416 Remington with 350 grain bullets; fire one and then the other, I could not tell much difference in the recoil. Now, to scope the new 416, I think a Zeiss HT 1.1-4x24 with illuminated #54 reticle has found its home. If I can work up an accurate load with the 350 TSX at somewhere between 2400-2500 fps, I shall be one happy camper. | |||
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As long as the New Barnes bullets are made correctly I'm sure you will be able to. And that would be a nice easy shooting, hard hitting load. When I got my first Taylor I really stood on the throttle at the loading bench. I had a load with the 325 gr X bullet going 2625 fps once those bullets were discontinued I went to the 350X and tho I could get 2500 fps from them I settled on 2450 fps. It was just right in that 19" barreled rifle. With the 416 Ruger you will be able to do that with very low pressure. If I get one I'm hoping Varget will be a good powder for it. As you are in Silla you are set for powder and bullet availability. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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I know the TTSX is a good bullet. But it would be nice to have a bc of. .6 . Starting it out at 2550-2600 fps it would be a truly viable load for true long range. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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I am not aware of any hunting bullets that are .6 BC. Match bullets or bullets for .416 Barrett maybe. | |||
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Yeah, there is no way to compete with the price of the ruger, that is for sure... I have not handled one of these rugers so I really can't compare size and handling to my favorite 416, which is a 18 inch 416 B&M with camo Ultimate stock. Rifle comes in at 36 inches Overall length, and 6.5 lbs no scope. This thing handles so incredibly well, and so easy to tote around its a dream to work with.... The only conventional bullets I have tested in this particular rifle have been 300 TSX at 2600 fps, 340 Woodleigh at 2450 fps, 350 TSX at 2400 fps, and a few various 400s at 2300 fps. Any loss of velocity due to its 18 inch barrel as opposed to a 416 B&M with 20 inches of barrel is worth it to me personally, for purposes I would have for a 416 caliber rifle. But when we turn our eyes to the more "Non-Conventional" that is when this little tiny gun shines..... The 225 gr Talon Tipped Raptor at 2950 fps will handle any and all thin skinned game that ever walked, including the big bears and +....... The 300 ESP Raptor takes up a tremendous amount of case capacity in this short cartridge when seated deep and using the tip, but we can still get over 2500 fps with it in this 18 inch gun, and this bullet is fully capable of taking on buffalo with ease, and have actually used both 225 and 300 on Australian buffalo with broadside exits with both.... 300 ESP as a solid is very capable of anything... This little gun does not have the horsepower of a much larger cartridge of course, or even a 416 B&M with a 20 inch barrel, but this particular little rifle has found a place with me for sure. I happen to think its just about the perfect rifle for Alaska, and so happens there are at least two bear guides there that think the same thing as they have one each exactly like mine.... Good Stuff all of it......... Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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36" and 6.5 lbs. Wow, that would be pretty ideal have it with you rifle. Lots of power in a compact package. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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Ok, here we go, I just needed to do some more research. With a bc of .550 this bullet will be a game changer. . https://cuttingedgebullets.com...d=action&key=MTH_V11. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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Yes, still in the thriving metropolis of the Wasilla / Palmer area. I am fairly set for powder and amply so to bullets (350gr TSX); but not due the previous 6 years of whathisname. The 325 gr in a TSX would be about ideal for the 416 Ruger, too bad they did not continue it and the 458 400 grain in the TSX. I do believe the 350 TSX (for sure) and possibly the 300 TSX will be sufficient to satisfy any of my wants / use above 375's with 270gr. But the GS Custom 330 HV bullets do look near perfect and I may have to give those a try.
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Yep just about perfect for your intended use. Jim  "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Does anyone know what these bullets do on impact with a cape buffalo? Some of the older MTH bullets, I think, would sliver into three banana-peel projectiles. That would seem to work for elk, but I would like more updated information on terminals and their reaction with buffalo. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Yes, me too. That's not the kind of performance I want from a 416. Anyone with CEB MTH Bullet info out there??? Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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Capoward might have some updated information. What I would like to see in the copper MTH is some inside scoring so that the petals blow off and leave a blunt flat-nose cylinder for a nice primary wound channel. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Guys I don’t have any updated information on the within game performance of the DG caliber MTH bullet’s performance. I have sent Michael a few boxes of the 430gr .500 CEB MTH (w/FBH banded) bullets so hand out to guys with 500 B&M and 500 MDM rifles but I’ve heard nothing back regarding their use in the field. But, looking at their performance in Michael’s bullet box I have zero concerns over their field performance:
And just to be clear, both my 320gr .423 CEB MTH (w/FBH banding) and my 430gr .500 CEB MTH (w/FBH banding) are constructed exactly just like all other CEB MTH bullets from the nose protrusion (SealTite Band forward) and the Boat Tail – I only requested Dan add the Narrow Multi-Banding from the FBH (Flat Base Hunting) bullet to the shank of my MTH bullets. Ha… Perhaps I should refer to my MTH bullets as CEB MTH NMB bullets... Anyway, it’s my perception that the FBH banding will lower the bullet to barrel friction allowing for higher velocity at lower pressure – but I guess it’d take a small sample of two MTH bullets, one with the FBH banding and one without but otherwise identical, to run pressure testing upon to determine whether the banding actually does as I perceive it to do... But this quote from Michael’s post (the above post) just might indicate that I’m on the right track with in my perception: Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Thank you, capo. That means that the MTH do not have anything to do with the 'banana peel' terminals that I read about a few years ago. Excellent news. It looks like a great bullet to run at around 2500-2600 fps. And it makes the 550 BC bullets very attractive. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Yes it does. ! Now, just so I'm clear on the Seal Tite band placement. . These will or will not feed through the entire magazine of a 416 Ruger. ?? Thank you very much for the excellent reply. !!! Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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Should give it a long range drop similar to a 308 Win 173-175 gr SMK when started at 2600 fps. Yup. That would work for all my big and dangerous game hunting and protection. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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It’d take way to long to try and explain the Seal Tite Band (STB) rational, so here’s a link that you can read the particulars along with the bullet schematic indicating the various sections discussed: http://site.cuttingedgebullets...s/bullet_description What I will point out, something that CEB already does with their MTH bullets, that is somewhat lost on most first time users – while the STB is designed to seat flush against the case mouth and there are Material Displacement Grooves (MDG), one in front and one behind the STB, which are used to capture any displacement of the STB. And if the bullet needs to be seated deeper within the cartridge case in order to fit within the rifle’s magazine – there is a groove diameter driving band just in front of the STB which allows the bullet to be seated up to 0.120” deeper and you can crimp (if you crimp your bullets) against the driving band. The STB when the bullet is seated deeper will simply obliterate into the front MDG. Back to the 350gr .416 CEB MTH_V11 bullet, using the SAAMI uncut 2.58” .416 Ruger case length and the CEB noted projection length of 0.784” (length of bullet projection from the BT side of the STB measured to the bullet tip) gives a 3.364” COAL which should easily work through the M77 standard length magazine. Edit Added: Pictorially, if you’ll relook at the photos of my MTH MNB bullets, what appears as the fourth band up from the BT (including the band at the BT) is the obliterated STB… The grooving above the obliterated STB is the Driving Band section of the bullet. I wondered if the Driving Band section was really needed, but Dan’s design of the DB fronting the STB has proven extremely accurate – at least when RIP’s shooting them… LOL… Hope this helps. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Sounds great. Thank you for the description. That bullet will work great in the Ruger or Remington. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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I'm going to need to test these, too. I'll try both 2600fps and 2800fps to see with the point of impact will be at 100yards with our CZs. I could also search for a lower velocity point of impact that would duplicate the 2800fps POI so that we could have some backup loads for Grandma Tanzan. However, she doesn't like the heavy bulkiness of the CZ compared to our 338WM Tikka, so she might be stuck with the 338 for the next year or two in TZ. We don't have a 338 in the US working up and testing various 338 loads. It will be full power 4000ftlb loads (225TTSX at 2838fps), something she has done before and could use on a limited basis. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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I would like to see the 26Nosler case necked up to 416. I think this would match the conventional Rigby specs with no troublr. Probably be able to obtain 2500 fps with a 400 grain projectile. With a lighter bullet you would have a flat shooting 416. | |||
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This has already been done. It's called the 416 AccRel and is basically a short (2.55" case) 375RUM necked up to the .416". Jeffesoso developed it and it is an excellent little cartridge but it has the drawback of being a wildcat. Jeffeoso on list has recommended the 416Ruger as the economical way of doing a 416AccRel. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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The Rem mag will do 2500 fps with a 400 gr bullet with a 22" barrel at least on the coast of Alaska . the Ruger should also. . Have one built with a 26" barrel, develop loads then start cutting the barrel back to the length you want. Granted its a high pressure load but wasn't over pressured. My next 416 is going to get wrung out real good with Varget if I can find a jug of it. I'm tired of the problems associated with Rl15. IMR 4064 is a good 416 powder and is more stable in my tests in the cold. Hopefully Varget will be better. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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I found IMR4064 to be a better powder in my 416 Then RL15 Less powder more vel great accuracy | |||
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And H4895 is worth a try in a shorter barreled rifle. I ended up going with H322 in the 500AccRelNyati. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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4895 was a touch too fast in my last 416 Rem. Even with 300 gr bullets. But Rl15 got me over 2900 fps with the 300 gr bullets. But when it gets cold its not too good. I think 4064 or Varget will duplicate the speed and be more consistent from one lot to the other. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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Yes, H4895 would not be a max velocity load but a general purpose, reliable load. On the max side, is Leverevolution too slow for a short-barreled Ruger? +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Personally I don't think you can go past the 416 Rigby. The 416 Ruger is a good cartridge, available in a short action, and in cheaper rifles, but the Rigby is so much more versatile. | |||
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My 24" Win mod. 70 in 416 Rem Mag gets max velocity with BL-C(2), chronographed 2625 fps with 350 grain bullet. 3-shot, 1" cloverleafs at 100 yds like clockwork. | |||
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. I've never been able to try Varget in a 416 yet, but I'm hoping to. Bl C 2 gives good velocity in warm weather but is probably the worst powder I ever.tried in the winter. . . H4895 does well in the cold but isn't the fastest powder for them. But, it doesn't loose its velocity in the cold so at least ya know what you'll have to work with. A good friend tried a number of powders in his Rem mag and settled on 4064 as being The powder for him . Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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84gr of Varget behind the 300 gr TSX gives 2740 fps in mine. | |||
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Was that the max load? Kinda slow but very useful. But then I'm a velocifile with 300 gr bullets in the 416 and 458. Have you tried the 350 gr TSX with Varget in the Rem Mag?? Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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As I don't have an eidetic memory. It is good to reread some of these threads. It does seem CEB could make a 300 gr 375 bullet along the lines of the 350 gr 416 MTH. Guess I need to look around and see what 416 Ruger Guide Guns are going for. There's a happy thot! Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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