The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores 411 HawkGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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I have a reamer and head space gauges for the 375 Hawk. The gauges are the same for the 411 Hawk. I have not seen who makes dies for the 411 Hawk. Zeglin, the Hawk cartridge designer, is no longer in operation, and I was thinking it would be cheaper to make a 411 Hawk than a 400 Whelen (since I already have the head space gauges) if I could source the dies without working from scratch. I had my 375 Hawk dies made up done by Huntingtons - they are on their special list. I doubt if there is enough difference between the two cartridges, the 411 Hawk and 400 Whelen, to make much difference. The two Hawk rounds are designed to be made out of 35 Whelen brass, this is always easy to come by. You form an oversized false shoulder, and then run the case into a sizing die to just head space and fireform. I have been watching the conversation about the 400 Whelen and OAL. A .411 throater and a sample round with a seated bullet to work for magazine length would probably work the same SMALL magic on either round's performance. Beyond nostalgia, these are both neat toys for the cast bullet shooter, and that is my goal. Any info that anyone can provide would be much appreciated. | ||
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The 411 hawk gains you nothing over a proper 400 Whelen. 411 Hawk dies are going to be full custom. I would look to the 400 Whelen thread. Bet you can find reamer and dies for less than full custom dies. Anyway push come to shove a 400 Whelen would be easier to resale than the Hawk. Remember this is from a 400PDK shooter.  As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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You have a point Paul. I'm just casting about. Remember it takes gauges, a reamer, and dies. Non-special dies make the special reamer and special gauges worth more. As the PDK guy you know that. Right now I'm just casting about for die sources, and thinking.... Thanks for your thoughts though. Experience always speaks loud. | |||
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Did you check CH4D for dies? When I bought my 400 Whelen dies from them they seemed to have a huge assortment, I don't recall if the "hawk" line was among them. Good luck with your project. | |||
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 But I haven't had  .As Snellstrom stated ch4d had dies. RIP and others have already worked out the details for you. Not to mention enough loads to keep you busy for a while. I bet you could beg, borrow, rent a reamer and gauge from someone on that thread. Or http://4-dproducts.com/display...wid=671&tname=rental Bottomline you need to build the rifle you want. Nothing worse than ending up with something wishing you had something else. But my 2 cents between the Hawk and Whelen the Whelen would be my choice. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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Michael Petrov had a correct finish reamer and gauges that he loaned out to interested folks for their 400 Whelen builds. No idea who has them now or if they're even still available for loan due to his death. CH-4D had the correct reloading dies for this reamer. Since you already have the 400 Hawk reamer and gauges, why not check with CH-4D to determine if they might have reloading dies. Or you could always check with the reamer manufacturer to obtain a print and have reloading dies constructed from that print.. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Thanks for all of the input gents. I check CH4D and they have both the 400 Whelen and the 411 Hawk listed. I have the Hawk manual, and it is about inline with the Whelen data posted here. In the Hawk cartridge book they also tried some Ramshot powders. I'd have to dig it out to see the bullet weights listed in it. The Hawk book list the dimensions of all of the Hawk cartridges. I will have to compare them to the Whelen listed here. By the way, the last time I called down the CH4D old Dave, the empresario, was down in Argentina. I asked the guy who I spoke to what he was doing down there since they'd already caught and buried Mengele? We both laughed. Dave must be really getting up there. It seems like he was old and gray when I first met him, and started doing business with decades ago. | |||
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Quality Cartridge offers the 411 Hawk brass; it's currently listed as "in stock". Also just went back and reread your initial post...375 Hawk reamer and gauges... Ok so you have gauges but need the 411 Hawk finish reamer and 4D doesn't offer the reamer for rent. So back we go... 4D does offer the 400 Whelen Petrov finish reamer for rent as well as the relating gauges. CH4D does offer the correct 400 Whelen Petrov reloading dies. Quality Cartridge does offer 400 Whelen Basic Brass, it's cheaper than QC Hawk brass, and it is listed as "in stock". If you're doing the work yourself or already have a gunsmith scheduled to do the work then go with the 4D rental of reamer and relating gauges, or have your 'smith rent them directly as you'll pay either way. Order your 400 Whelen Prtrov reloading dies from CH4D. Order 200-300 pieces of the 400 Whelen Basic Brass from QC (a few hundred more if the budget allows - may as well have an almost lifetime supply on hand). You'll be good to go. If you aren't doing the barrel work yourself and don't have a gunsmith lined out then I recommend you contact Ron Berry's 'smith Rusty (Rusty goes by 'roughone' here on the forums and has a number of posts in the 400 Whelen thread) to have the work done. Rusty has the correct finish reamer and gauges on hand. Good luck... Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Rusty and I have shared cost on reamers, I cannot loan out the reamers at his shop. He has reamers and gages for both these: 400 Whelen Petrov of 2003 (made by Dave Kiff of Pacific Tool & Gage) 400 Whelen Berry of 2013 (made by Dave Manson of Manson Precision) Both are released to the gun trade.  JGS also makes a reamer for the Michael Petrov version. Both of these use the same dies from RCBS or CH4D, flawlessly. Those dies were referred to as "G&H" by RCBS, or "JGS" by CH4D, in the past. I use the CH4D dies for the 400 Whelen-Petrov. I use the RCBS dies for the 400 Whelen-Berry. Both use the properly made Quality Cartridge basic cylindrical brass with "400 Whelen" headstamp. I cannot arrange Rusty's services, but he is a genius mechanical engineer and gunsmith, and a good ol' boy whom I have nicknamed "Slick." So he now calls me "Slip." I got the "Rip" moniker from my taxidermist "Vip." I do not think I will be changing my handle here to SLIP, however. Rusty can do as little or as much as you want, if he wants. Send him an action and a barrel and he can fit and chamber it for 400 Whelen and send it back, "slick" as you both please. He is very reasonable in his charges and ships by USPS IIRC. PM member "roughone" if interested, yep, that is "Slick."  | |||
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I also like the idea of the 400 Bateleur, a .408/.338 Lapua Magnum, which will launch a 400-grain bullet at 2700 fps and a 2700-grain bullet at 300 fps if adequate pressure is attained. | |||
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Considering that the Lapua is a tad shorter than the Rigby, I'd say that 400gn at 2700fps is pushing it a bit. The 416Rigby will do 2700fps but most people stop around 2600-2625fps with the 400grainers. Weatherby is a different story, as always. (Me?--I stick with the 350 grains at 2800-2825 because of a slow twist barrel, the traditional 16.5" that is maintained by CZ/Brno.) +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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416Tanzan, You did not address the 2700-grain bullet at 300 fps part, nor the pressure for 400-grainer at 2700 fps. Hey, this is a joking response to the 400 H&H highjack. However, I do not think you will find any bullet and powder combination in the world that will get you to 2700 fps with 400-grainer in the .416 Rigby, at less than 64,000 psi, which is a bit high, considering the antique CIP limit of about 48,000 psi. But, the 400 Bateleur can do 68,000 psi with a C.O.L. longer than standard .416 Rigby, the .416 Rigby cannot be loaded as long due to its standard zero-parallel-sided-free-bore-leade-only (ZPSFBLO) throat, and the 400 Bateleur has a Weatherby-ized throat that allows long C.O.L. or pressure let-off with short C.O.L. But the .416 is a bigger bore than the .408, though the .408 might have better BC and SD for 400-grainer, so maybe it is a wash ... Highjack off. Sort of reminds me of the 400 Whelen Petrov of 2003, improved by making neck-1 just .003" smaller (better shoulder results while preserving .001" of neck taper), neck-2 remains the same in both cartridges (case mouth diameter), and by lengthening the chamber max length by .008" (allows full 2.500" brass length use), and lengthening the throat by 0.112" (with attendant benefits for use in either 3.4" or 3.6" magazine lengths), all while preserving use of 400 Whelen Petrov of 2003, reloading dies, which can give a more positive crimp in the 400 Whelen Berry of 2013. The latest iteration of the 400 Whelen was for 3.6" box use arriving in mid 2014. Michael Chris Petrov passed away in February of 2014. My next 400 Whelen will have only a new C.O.L, and new brass maximum spec. It will be called the "400 Whelen Petrov Berry of 2014" or "400 WPB." I'll get it up at ammoguide.com after I shoot those new loads in it, and see if they will accept a third "400 Whelen" there. It will be the second one to credit Michael Petrov for inspiration, based on his, with minor changes. My problem with new specs is solved. Rusty McGee is the keeper of the reamer. Thanks, y'all, OP swarf, OT helpful responders, and highjackers, for goading me into thinking of this.  | |||
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I hope everyone is having an excellent Memorial Day. I've been working on my basement. Taking a break. I took the time to get out my Hawk Manual last night. There is an complete reprint of Mr. Petrov's two articles on the Whelen from Precision Shooting magazine.. This is just an FYI. The dimensions for both the 411 Hawk, and the 400 Whelen, per Petrov, are both in the manual; and I cannot see much difference. The Whelean'S shoulder is 0.0458, and the Hawk's is 0.454. The Whelen's shoulder angle is not specified. It would be interesting for someone to try and measure that if they have a FFed case. I cannot remember enough trig to dope it out without a headache tonight. Zeglin, the ZHat, man states that the neck's of cases should be opened up over a 0.430 expander befor setting up the false shoulder to fire form. Since the bullet used is the same that dimension should work for either round, and the data listed for the 411 Hawk should be about valid for either cartridge - dependent on the components used as anyone here probably realizes. This has been an interesting thread for me, and I would like to thank all for their thoughts. By the way, I started to give some input into a thread on 24hourcampfir to a chap attempting to do his on gunsmithing. Butch Lambert is active in it. I think it is a good read fro anyone thinking about doing the same. It contains my thoughts on running for Vice President.... I am also compiling a list for perspective wives. I think I am approaching the time in m y life when I need three: one to take care of me, one to take care of the house and yard, and one to go out and work and support us all. I haven't got the whole thing figured out yet but I'm working on it. Thanks for the wool gathering help on this perspective project. Always cheaper to think first, and not repeat other's mistakes. | |||
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Stay tuned for the "400 Whelen Petrov Berry of 2014" cartridge drawing of brass maximums: NEW!!! 400 WPB is going to be a lot easier to type. | |||
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The original 1923 400 Whelen of Townie Whelen had a brass shoulder diameter of .455", though it used a bullet diameter of .409-caliber instead of the currently in-vogue .411-caliber. At least the shoulder diameters of the 400 Whelen Petrov (2003) as drawn at ammoguide.com, and the 400 Whelen Berry (2013), are correct by that! So will be the 400 WPB (2014). Cartridge drawing of 400 Whelen published by NRA in 1923, notice shoulder diameter of .455 (brass MAXIMUM) and neck taper of .001":  | |||
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Ron, The 400 WPB reminds me of a larger-caliber longer-case .318 Westley Richards... I like it! I wonder if you could get 7 or 8 rounds down with in a drop box configuration? Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Sounds like a "purpose build" need. Perhaps use a commercial FN M98 Mauser action with standard bolt face, opened for .375 H&H cartridge, use appropriate Wiebe' bottom metal with coffin (Rigby) style floorplate - good to go. Not necessarily the cheapest way to get there but definitely a run down nostalgia lane... Perhaps a matching 338-06 (loaded to 3.6" COAL), rather than a .318 WR, in similar action/rifle build. Both rifles built in a stalking/carry style appropriately adjusted for primarily scope use. If I hadn't already used my FN actions it'd be tempting... Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Or Sunny Hill drop floorplate + McMillan drop-belly stock combo for Winchester M70. That could be done to the rifle I already have, just order those two parts. Nice idea on the .338-06 with 3.6" box. | |||
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Yep... How many will fit down? Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Personally, my interest drops off significantly after the first shot. Some people rate a rifle by adding up the footpounds of all the bullets in the magazine together. I tend to think in terms of the first bullet only. If one gets a second shot or a third, great. Beyond that a person will invariably have time to top off the magazine and start afresh. Alot of times I only have one or at most two rounds in the magazine while taking a first shot. I just don't feel the need of maximal magazine carry, especially if able to decide whether to switch to solids at any one point or to insert a long-range expanding bullet on top of solids that were sitting in the magazine. So I'd rather have a big accurate rifle with three shots than 6 shots of a significantly lesser calibre. In something close to this calibre, I'd rather have three handloaded 416Rigbys in a magazine than five 375H&H's. That's just my druthers. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Hey Tanz, Sometimes it’s just noodling going on… And I’ve written and rewritten this at least five times so hopefully I’ve the jest of my noodling in cogent response… Your high velocity handloaded .416 Rigby ammunition preference… Obviously these loading levels are within your recoil tolerance and are accurate because you’ve used them out around 300yds, or so, on a regular basis. But most folks are not up to .416 Weatherby cartridge performance in a 9 lb dry weight un-scoped rifle. Heck a 500/416 3 ¼” NE DR, similar performance to the standard .416 Rigby loading, weighs in at about 12 lbs and I’ve read about guys wanting to add one or two mercury recoil suppressors to the stock. Back to the thread… The thread title relates to the 411 Hawk, a cartridge closely matching the performance of the original 400 Whelen cartridge. The original 400 Whelen was designed to match the ballistic performance of the 400 Jeffery cartridge, 2150fps with 400gr bullet, in a contemporary bolt action rifle at a cost more reasonable than the typical English DG BA rifle of the day and far less than the cost of a basic level DR. So we already are discussing a heavy-medium cartridge having an overall performance capability similar to the .416 Taylor or .416 B&M when using bullets of equal or similar SD; something well below the potential of the .416 Rigby cartridge… The 400 Jeffery (aka: 450/400 3” NE) used historically in either a single shot or DR is reputed to be ‘soft on the shoulder’ recoil-wise and lighter in weight than larger caliber DRs making it a viable alternative for the slight of stature folks and the recoil intolerant. Performance wise the 400 Jeffery is reputed to be as long ranging and accurate as the competing .375 H&H Magnum cartridge and is reputed to be deadly against DG at close range due to factory loadings demonstrating exceptional penetration and overall bullet performance. Throw modern bullets and powders into the mix and the original 400 Whelen, the 400Whelen Petrov, the 400 Whelen Berry, the new 400 WPB, and the 400 PDK all easily match or exceed the ballistics of the 400 Jeffery and the overall bullet performance of factory loaded ammunition. The rational of how many cartridges does it hold… After having searched the internet over the years for comparisons of how well the bolt rifle guy does against the DR guy, I’ve deduced the following requirements and resulting scenarios: 1) Two equally adept individuals with their rifle of choice. 2) Each rifle fully loaded in their traditional configuration. And 3) Each firing 6 shots – the equivalent of the ‘do really hitting the fan’. This is how the sequence of the first six shots will be fired… BA w/4 total rounds (3+1) and DR w/2 total rounds: 1st – Tie 2nd – DR 3rd – BA 4th – Tie 5th – DR 6th – DR BA w/6 total rounds (5+1) and DR w/2 total rounds: 1st – Tie 2nd – DR 3rd – BA 4th – Tie 5th – BA 6th – Tie The DR shots will be fired extremely close together and will always win the 2nd shot when compared to the BA. The BA starts winning every time the DR must be reloaded. BA DG rifles are very slow to reload so once empty they fall out of the race. Eliminate the equally proficient individuals in #1 and the above firing sequences goes out the door… Bottom-line, when risks of 'the do hitting the fan big-time’ in the worst possible scenario – that being the DG charging/actively seeking the hunters – I believe it behooves the BA guy to be extra fully prepared which may require increasing the number of rounds readily available in the magazine if/when this is an option… Anyway, just my 2¢… Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Jim, That was way more than 2 cents worth. RIFLE needs to give Weeweeland the boot and give you the job, if you would want it.  Sunny Hill & McMillan combo on the 12.7x68 Magnum 49-10 (really ought to be called the "50 Bateleur") holds 6 of the 400 Whelen cartridges, and bolt closes over the sixth, and it feeds from the mag. Of course that is a windowed box of .375 H&H length, but that windowing adds little capacity. Safe to say Sunny Hill & McMillan combo will hold at least 5 down plus 1 in the chamber, 400 Whelen, it's a 6-shooter.  I really like that combo on the "50 Bateleur" a perfectly functioning, accurate, and aesthetically pleasing rifle to my  sensibilities. | |||
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Hey Ron, I agree Weeweeland needs to be given the boot but I don't reckon I'd be a good replacement. Maybe swap him out with Michael though; that ought to perk up the readers! LOL... But thanks... Yes the combination of M70 action, PacNor barrel, Sunny Hill bottom metal, windowed .375 length box (presume 300 RUM box), and McMillan stock is certainly an accurate combination chambered in the 12.7x68 Magnum, oops 50 Bateleur. And yes it is a good looking rifle... Very nice to hear that six 400 Whelens will fit in the magazine with the bolt closing; so easily it's a 6-shooter if not a 7-shooter. Perhaps add a Rigby style coffin floorplate and turn it into an 8-shooter... Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Duane Wiebe's XRM box for .375 H&H will only hold 5-down and allow bolt to close over the 5th round. (illustrated on 400 Whelen thread) Yes, why not use the Sunny Hill floor plate + M70 RUM box for the 400 WPB, it helps with the huge fat shoulder of the 400 Whelen.  OK, it is a 6+1 so 7-shooter. Holds three-down in 50 Bateleur, 6-down in 400 WPB. I think that is plenty for each (nod to 416Tanzan on the 4-shooter philosophy of cannon).  The coffin plate for more capacity would just ugly up the aesthetics.Matching pair, 400 WPB and 50 Bateleur. But with current box, the M70 Winchester 400WPB is a 4+1 five-shooter. and IIRC, B&C makes their Medalist stock for the M70 Winchester. No drop belly or coffin plate required. Well! I might just have to stick with the 5-shooter route to be able to use the B&C Medalist stock. Great stock. That is plenty of shots too, for so powerful a cartridge as the 400 WPB. | |||
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but it never caught on. That much increase in positivity of headspacing was not necessary.