I have an old pre-64 (1957) Win M-70 in .458 WM. It had a G&H quick-detach side-mount on it when I bought it with 30mm rings. I bought a Leupold Euro-30 1.25-4 scope, mounted it, and tested. It shot less than 1" groups off the bench at 100.

Never looked back...hunted with it for years...killed lots of stuff.

Getting ready for elephant hunt this summer...grabbed the old 4-5-8, loaded its usual fodder, went to double check zero.

The damn thing shot all over the place. Checked everything...found I had a broken front ring screw. These are #6-20 screws (already thinking these are not good for single screw rings) with a unique head...so I called G&H for replacements. They told me this particular mount must be very old as they had trouble with those screws breaking and changed to bigger ones...but they had one set in archive and sent to me as I just had 3 weeks til leaving.

Put in the new screws and went to the bench and shot the first group of 3 had one 6" higher than the other 2 but the other 2 we touching. Adjusted scope and the next 3 were a 1" group just where I always kept that rifle zeroed...2" high at 100. This gives dead on at 25, 1-1.5 high at 50, 2 high at 100, and dead on at 150...with 420 CEB hollow points. The 450 gr matching solids shoot dead on at 25, 50, and 100 and 4" low at 150.

Anyway...I was satisfied with the gun and forgot about it and into the case it went. (Never thinking again about that first shot that was high).

Shot a couple of ele with my .500 NE and began plains game hunting.

Wanted another zebra hide and had one broad side at 100...easy shot...bang over his back. What?!?!?!

Went by the range at camp right afterwards and bang right into the bullseye at 75 yds...chalked it up to just me missing.

Went a couple of days and the exact scenario happened again except this time he did not run and I put the next square through the chest...dead zebra.

Couple of days go by and we find a nice wildebeest. Quartering slightly away at 125 or so. Put the crosshairs right above the elbow...bang and down he goes...but wait...he's up and trotting away with blood running down his opposite side pretty high. He stops...bang again...dead this time...1st shot was high into the withers.

That evening just a lttle later...shot an eland hit where I intended...dead eland.

I never shoot like this so I am really wondering and remembered the high shot after replacing the scope.

When I get home...take rifle to the bench. Three shots from cold gun...1st 6" high...next 2 touching 2" high right over bullseye just like it was supposed to be.

Let the rifle sit a couple of days verticle propped against the wall in the shop and then repeated. First shot about 7" high at 100 and next 2 touching again 2" high over bullseye where it was supposed to be.

Off came the scope annd it is going to Leupold for a checkup.

Now the questions:

1) Do y'all suspect a scope failure or something else? The mount was tight this time and I cannot find anything else wrong and the rifle shoots really well in the past with this load.

2) Not going back with the mount with the weak ring screws. Tryin to decide whether to go back with the new and improved Griffin & Howe side mount or switch to conventional system. Action has the holes drilled for the side-mount and stock was altered to accommodate. What would y'all do?

A fairly long post so I might have misread it some

You seem to mention putting the rifle to one side and then coming back to it and for the first shot or two it is fucked but then goes OK.

That can be either (or both) bedding and scope mount. After a couple of shots it is like recoil forces everything into a corner and then the rifle shoots.

In my experience the amount of shooting error you are getting makes the mounts the main problem. Usually a fucked scope won't be noticed on game and the scope problem shows up on the bench rest. However, that is certainly not the case 100% of the time.

Personally I think all three are up for grabs ie. mounts, scope and bedding.

With respect to bedding, that is very early M70 458 and I can't remember if they had a barrel recoil lug under the rear sight. However, if they did they can cause problems if the rifle is as original with upward forend tip pressure but the stock loses the upward pressure. The recoil lug can move its position while the rifle sits.

In fact with M70s in 375 and 458 I used to have the bottom of the barrel lug drilled and tapped and then a screw into them.

Kind of sounds like it might be the mount if it shot ok otherwise for so long.

G&H still makes those old side mounts?

In my limited experience a scope failing mechanically doesn't keep it's zero and it shoots erratically. But you have a regular and repeatable pattern. I would suspect something other than the scope. You didn't have problems until the scope ring came loose. I would start there.

When you installed the screws did you loosen both rings and tighten things up evenly? Did you use a torque wrench?

You know the screws are prone to breaking and you don't want it happening on a hunt. At a minimum, I would replace the screws with a larger size. You may be able to simply drill out and tap for the larger size. If not, a new set of rings is in order. If the rifle was fired with the scope loose in one ring it could have tweaked the other ring under recoil. So, maybe new rings is the best way to go anyway. Once that is taken care of you can see if the accuracy problem is resolved or if you need to address something else.

ledvm,
Congratulations on owning such a piece of history, the Pre-'64 African.
Only 1226 of them shipped between 1956 and 1963, worldwide.

That old soldier deserves better.
Such a heavy scope and mount system, mounted so high on a .458 WinMag with heavy loads
(not cast bullet loads)
is never going to be ideal,
or as rugged as possible.

I would not want a G&H sidemount contraption on anything of more recoil than a .375 H&H.

I would get the stock rebuilt from the G&H cutout, or if not, wear the scar proudly,
and get some modern mounts.
Lower and lighter in recoil forces on the system.

Low and light like this: QRW Low rings, for 500-grainers at 2124 fps.
Hard to get any lower and lighter than this:



Not This: Weaver 4x4 High rings, for 409-grain Berry's Hard Cast at 1184 fps.



And do take the metal out of the wood and check the bedding, and screw torque, etc.
Do you have pillars in that +60-year-old walnut?
Maybe some compression of the wood has occurred over the last three score years?
That gun is well worth a going over from muzzle crown to butt.
What a great piece!

Squirrel season is coming ... GOR
Rip
.

How many shots you have fired with that scope, ledvm?

Does the scope rattle if you shake it?

I find it hard to trust mount bases with such a short distance from front to back but, if the scope rattles, it might be the erector spring.

If you have fired more than a few packets of cartridges with the scope, I also see the possibility that the windage screw may have scraped a burr on the side of the erector tube under recoil intertia. Then, when the tube plunges (relatively) under recoil, it may occasionally hang up on that burr instead of returning to battery. That could possibly explain those shots that went way high, depending on the scope's geometry, of course.

quote:

Originally posted by Cougarz:
Kind of sounds like it might be the mount if it shot ok otherwise for so long.

G&H still makes those old side mounts?

Yep...they do.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
How many shots you have fired with that scope, ledvm?

Does the scope rattle if you shake it?

I find it hard to trust mount bases with such a short distance from front to back but, if the scope rattles, it might be the erector spring.

If you have fired more than a few packets of cartridges with the scope, I also see the possibility that the windage screw may have scraped a burr on the side of the erector tube under recoil intertia. Then, when the tube plunges (relatively) under recoil, it may occasionally hang up on that burr instead of returning to battery. That could possibly explain those shots that went way high, depending on the scope's geometry, of course.

I have shot hundreds of rounds through it. That is the only scope I have ever used on it.

quote:

With respect to bedding, that is very early M70 458 and I can't remember if they had a barrel recoil lug under the rear sight. However, if they did they can cause problems if the rifle is as original with upward forend tip pressure but the stock loses the upward pressure. The recoil lug can move its position while the rifle sits.

Mike,
There IS one more piece to the puzzle and you may have hit upon it.

First let me say the rifle has the screwed down barrel-lug under the front-sight.

The rifle has aluminum pillars and is glass bedded up through the barrel-lug. It was already that way when I acquired it.

I have had it out of the wood and re-torqued it down in proper fashion with a torque-wrench.

Gren,
I used a torque wrench and with the new screws...reset the scope rings properly.

Now the possible missing piece.

That rifle had been sitting in the safe since I cleaned it after the last ele hunt in 2015. When I reached into the safe to get it...the ebony forend tip came off in my hand.

Epoxied it back in place proper and reblended the finish properly on the outside.

But...there is no upward pressure on the barrel now for sure because I checked. But I don't know if there ever was. Now...you can slide a dollar bill freely to about an 1 1/2" from the barrel lug and at the end of the slide-of-the-dollar-bill...the contact ends unevenly...but I did not alter the barrel-channel with the repair...it may have always been that way.

The bedding epoxy ends about an inch in front of the barrel lug and the channel is sealed with varnish up to the ebony tip and I did not change this.

However...it is possible that the ebony tip did have pressure before it became unseated.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
I have shot hundreds of rounds through it. That is the only scope I have ever used on it.

Though your loads may not be quite up to the level of the 458 Lott, where Atkinson thinks the trouble begins, it may be they have been enough to wreck the scope.

You probably know my thoughts on the inherent weakness of all scopes with constantly centred reticles but I have high regard for Ray's acceptance of modern Leupold quality, at least in a couple of their fixed power scopes.

While he reckoned you could get away with lesser models on calibres milder than the Lott, I see his experience as a kind of destructive testing: if a 458 Lott will destroy a Leupold variable in a 100 rounds, I wouldn't trust that scope too far on a 458 Winchester, either.

Maybe I missed it but how does it shoot with the iron sights.

quote:

Originally posted by kda55:
Maybe I missed it but how does it shoot with the iron sights.

I have only checked it at 25 yds where I am likely to ever shoot irons and it put 2 right through the bullseye.

My 52 year old eyes can barely make out the rear V.

Not sure my iron sight test would accomplish anything shooting at one-hundred. If you were handy...we would test it.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
I have shot hundreds of rounds through it. That is the only scope I have ever used on it.

Though your loads may not be quite up to the level of the 458 Lott, where Atkinson thinks the trouble begins, it may be they have been enough to wreck the scope.

You probably know my thoughts on the inherent weakness of all scopes with constantly centred reticles but I have high regard for Ray's acceptance of modern Leupold quality, at least in a couple of their fixed power scopes.

While he reckoned you could get away with lesser models on calibres milder than the Lott, I see his experience as a kind of destructive testing: if a 458 Lott will destroy a Leupold variable in a 100 rounds, I wouldn't trust that scope too far on a 458 Winchester, either.

My load shoots 450gr monoliths at a consistent 2250+ fps. I don't shoot light loads through it.

My old eyes would only serve to support your original problem!

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
I have shot hundreds of rounds through it. That is the only scope I have ever used on it.

Though your loads may not be quite up to the level of the 458 Lott, where Atkinson thinks the trouble begins, it may be they have been enough to wreck the scope.

You probably know my thoughts on the inherent weakness of all scopes with constantly centred reticles but I have high regard for Ray's acceptance of modern Leupold quality, at least in a couple of their fixed power scopes.

While he reckoned you could get away with lesser models on calibres milder than the Lott, I see his experience as a kind of destructive testing: if a 458 Lott will destroy a Leupold variable in a 100 rounds, I wouldn't trust that scope too far on a 458 Winchester, either.

My load shoots 450gr monoliths at a consistent 2250+ fps. I don't shoot light loads through it.

Those loads plus your post about open sights emboldens me to think that the scope has indeed crapped out. Atkinson (are you there, Ray?) would suggest you find a Leupold compact 2.5x.

Personally, I would suggest a 50-year-old Nickel 2.5x or perhaps his 1-4x21 'Variabel', or a similar reticle-movement Zeiss/Hensoldt. Despite 60 years of sticking band-aids on the image-movement system, it still breaks down because of its conceptual instability. This may not matter to varmint shooters but dangerous-game hunters ignore it at their peril.

The scope is off and back to Leupold for a check up. Will report on its status when found out.

Don't expect them to be too frank with what they find in there - I think the scope industry might be a bit like the masonic lodge (if they told you ... )

Burris, for instance, now has a no-questions-asked warranty, I suspect because they don't want you to ask them any, either.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
The scope is off and back to Leupold for a check up. Will report on its status when found out.

Some 30mm Leupold QRW rings would be spiffy on some steel cross-slot bases, on that African
instead of that Rube Goldberg contraption.

8x40 the base screws and glue the bases on with JB Weld,
that might hold up even with that heavier-than-need-be "Euro" Leupold,
though a lighter scope would be kinder.

Squirrel season is coming ... GOR
Rip
.

quote:

But...there is no upward pressure on the barrel now for sure because I checked. But I don't know if there ever was.

When you get the scope back and if it still doesn't shoot to your satisfaction, try putting a business card or something that will fill the gap at the forend tip and add a little barrel pressure. That's the way Winchester designed the rifle originally. In fact just a little historical trivia, when the post 64's came out people didn't like that they had gone to a free floated barrel. Everybody knew back then that free floating was never going to work. Some rifles just plain shoot better with a bit of tip pressure. Either way hopefully your on the road to fixing your problem.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

... instead of that Rube Goldberg contraption.

Hang on - the constantly centred reticle is the Rube Goldberg contraption, except you can't see in to have a laugh.

So what to do with the scope mount?

1) Take the G&H off and go conventional?

2) And if so...re-tap action for #8 screws versus the #6 holes it now has?

3) Get a newer version of the G&H with #8 ring screws?

4) Or drill out and re-tap this one?

I am stuck between 2) and 3) on this. 2) because I know the best 3) cause this one was good for a long-time and to keep it as I got it.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
So what to do with the scope mount?

Have you considered what removing the G&H system will leave? Since the stock is already inletted for the G&H mount and since the action is already drilled and tapped for the G&H mount - I say keep the G&H system. You can try drilling and tapping for the larger screws, alternatively get their new rings. You were happy with it for years. Why change to something else?

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
So what to do with the scope mount?

Have you considered what removing the G&H system will leave? Since the stock is already inletted for the G&H mount and since the action is already drilled and tapped for the G&H mount - I say keep the G&H system. You can try drilling and tapping for the larger screws, alternatively get their new rings. You were happy with it for years. Why change to something else?

My thoughts exactly sir. I want to keep it (or updated version) for all those reasons. Was trying to see if the detractors could convince me otherwise.

A State-of-the-Art Hunting Rifle—Circa 1960

by Craig Boddington - Tuesday, June 28, 2016
https://www.americanrifleman.o...ng-rifle-circa-1960/

Detractor here:

Sure would be nice if a low-profile QRW front base could be installed,
obviously the rear base would not interfere with the G&H side mount.

I would keep the G&H for 45-70 Govt equivalent loads with a fun scope like the Slughunter from Nikon.
Then use the QRW for heavier recoil.

Your M70 African is all set for a Lyman 57 JWS receiver sight, factory-drilled-and-tapped for that on the left side rear.
Dial that micrometer rear sight all the way down and use a peep.

A decorative little piece of walnut, ebony, bubinga wood, or whatever you fancy,
could be finely fashioned with escuthcheoned screws,
to attach to the rifle if you removed the G&H side bracket.

That is what I would do for a fine old Winchester M70 African.
You would have four sighting systems:

1. African Micrometric Adjustable open express sights.

2. Lyman 57 JWS receiver sight and original front.

3. G&H side mount with fun scope.

4. Hell-for-stout QRW (8x40-ed and JB Welded) with DGR scope.

Low torch heat will easily remove the JB Weld without harm to gun,
with barreled action removed from wood before torching.

Eat your cake and have it too, as the UNAbomber would say.

Squirrel season is coming ... GOR
Rip
.

I would definitely keep the G&H mounts if a new/repaired scope and/or bigger screws fix the problem.

They have a real style that reminds us of the good old days.

From Craig Boddington's article above, this G&H mounts a 1"-tubed scope a mite lower,
whatever allows the bolt handle to clear the ocular bell of the scope is the usual limiting factor on a straight-tubed scope.
Here, a highly custom-built Mauser in .30-.338WinMag:





"The double-lever Griffin & Howe side mount detaches and reattaches easily
simply by swinging the levers and sliding the mount in and out of place."

"The mount itself piqued my curiosity. Introduced clear back in 1927,
the Griffin & Howe detachable side mount is an American classic from a bygone era.
This one slips a bit, with the group’s center shifting between attaching/reattaching by about 1.5".
Mind you, I have a feeling that Batten practiced with the aperture as well as the scope.
Although everything seems tight, this mount may be worn from repeated use.
For sure I have no intention of buggering the screws trying to find out."



"A 1.5" shift in groups resulted after the author detached and reattached the Griffin & Howe scope mount,
which was not surprising considering it shows a bit of wear."



"The owner’s name “JOHN H. BATTEN” and hometown “RACINE” (Wisconsin) are engraved into the gun’s barrel (top).
The commercial Mauser action features a horizontal safety (above)."



"The rifle’s Griffin & Howe quick-detach scope mount was secured to its receiver by way of three screws that,
after being installed so as to pass through the receiver’s raceway, were ground flat.

Squirrel season is coming ... GOR
Rip
.

Looks like an old Redfield on that rifle Craig's shooting. Nice looking rifle, I'd love to have it. He's even using my old spotting scope, a Bushnell Spacemaster!

I'd probably stay with the G&H mount too. New or rework the old one, I kind of like the classic look.

$310 in 1963 is about $2500 now?
The African has outpaced inflation!

Current Blue Book on a Pre-'64 African:

Winchester Model 70 Super Grade African
100%: $8,000
98%: $7,500
95%: $7,500
90%: $6,500
80%: $5,500
70%: $4,500
60%: $4,000

1226 mfg. 1956-1963

Normal attrition and collectors owning more than one contribute to extreme rarity.
Retains considerable "shooter" value in lesser external conditions.
Watch for cracked and/or repaired stocks.

How much do you take off for the G&H side mount?


Rip
.

The older style G&H 30mm side rings used a # 6x32 screw, with a thinner head. This was simply a button head shaped allen screw with the OD of the head turned down to a certain diameter.

The change to the new screw was simply to use a normal # 6x40 x 1/4" allen head screw, so now a thicker head with a slightly larger diameter.
The top half of the ring was slightly changed so the head of the screw does not protrude as far.

The older rings top half can be recut for a new normal off the shelf screw, just the top of the thicker screw head will protrude more.

I also have some 30mm rings that are in the white for the new style screw.

JW

quote:

Originally posted by J Wisner:
The older style G&H 30mm side rings used a # 6x32 screw, with a thinner head. This was simply a button head shaped allen screw with the OD of the head turned down to a certain diameter.

The change to the new screw was simply to use a normal # 6x40 x 1/4" allen head screw, so now a thicker head with a slightly larger diameter.
The top half of the ring was slightly changed so the head of the screw does not protrude as far.

The older rings top half can be recut for a new normal off the shelf screw, just the top of the thicker screw head will protrude more.

I also have some 30mm rings that are in the white for the new style screw.

JW

Correct in all you wrote as it pertains to mine. But if I re-tap my rings...it will be for #8-40 screws...there is plenty of room.

Another thing I noticed delving into this issue is that the cross-slot in my base is getting rounded off on the front edge from the cross-bolts slamming into it.

Will post pics later.

There is a stop screw on the under side of the sub ring base. the turned down section acts as a stop/bump to position the sub ring base the same each time vs the cross slots for the levers.

If the end of your base has become slightly swaged from hitting this stop screw or the stop screw has become worn or bent over time. Then a new stop screw can be made slightly over size and refitted to match your cross base slots.

But what you may be seeing as to wear is what is called a secondary recoil, this is rear ward movement of the heavy scopes in the last stages of rifle recoil. The heavy scopes want to slide off to the rear. If that is the case that may be the wear on the cross slots you are seeing.
Not much can be done with that, other than carefull TIG welding up the area and dressing it back down. Need to remember it took years before that type of wear to showed up.

Yes there is enough metal to open and retap the bottom to # 8x40, and to carefully recut the screw head recess for the larger screw head, just remember not to deepen the recess and thin up the ring under the screw head. FYI those rings pictured on your post are machined from 1018 mild steel

JW

Hi Jim Wisner,

I have a couple of your copies of the African rear sight on my rifles.
Any chance a person could find that sight for sale somewhere?
I wonder where Weatherby gets theirs for their DGR rifles?

ledvm,

I will gladly take that old African off your hands if it gets to be too much trouble.
Will pay shipping to my FFL in Kentucky, no charge to you.


Rip
.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Hi Jim Wisner,

I have a couple of your copies of the African rear sight on my rifles.
Any chance a person could find that sight for sale somewhere?
I wonder where Weatherby gets theirs for their DGR rifles?

ledvm,

I will gladly take that old African off your hands if it gets to be too much trouble.
Will pay shipping to my FFL in Kentucky, no charge to you.


Rip
.

RIP,
You can ask Michael McCourry...that rifle will be going to Africa with me until I die. Just got back...got a couple of years to rejuvinate the scope system.

Pics of the base showing wear of the cross-slots.

I would have thought that the position of that wear would come from the initial shock of recoil - the rifle moves back while inertia leaves the scope pulling 'forward' against the mount base.

The secondary recoil force J Wisner mentions does occur but is less severe and I would expect the wear from it would appear on the rear edge of the connecting recesses.

I see no reason why the metal could not be built up again and stoned to fit.

quote:

I would have thought that the position of that wear would come from the initial shock of recoil - the rifle moves back while inertia leaves the scope pulling 'forward' against the mount base.

Exactly.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Hi Jim Wisner,

I have a couple of your copies of the African rear sight on my rifles.
Any chance a person could find that sight for sale somewhere?
I wonder where Weatherby gets theirs for their DGR rifles?

ledvm,

I will gladly take that old African off your hands if it gets to be too much trouble.
Will pay shipping to my FFL in Kentucky, no charge to you.


Rip
.

RIP,
You can ask Michael McCourry...that rifle will be going to Africa with me until I die. Just got back...got a couple of years to rejuvinate the scope system.

If I had it I sure wouldn't let it slip away either. Very nice looking rifle you have there!

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
RIP,
You can ask Michael McCourry...that rifle will be going to Africa with me until I die. Just got back...got a couple of years to rejuvinate the scope system.

ledvm,

By all means, eat your cake and have it too!

It is clear from your pictures that the G&H side mount with QD scope removed would allow the use of QRW bases,
and QRW bases could be left in place even after the G&H hardware is repaired and re-deployed:








Rip
.

Id quit wasting time, and send the gun to a competent gunsmith and have it fixed..Those are good rings and bases and cost like hell..worth spending some money on..If you decide to dump them, give me a call..Do you still have my old 450-400?

Really, this is as good as it gets, and will allow you to preserve your G&H capability.







It is hardly noticeable and totally reversible,
easily replaceable if you bugger it
like you have buggered the G&H side mount.

But once you go QRW you won't want to go back
to the G&H contraption, other than for nostalgia.

Don't sell it to Atkinson!

That G&H contraption belongs in the NRA Museum in Fairfax, VA, or a museum of the "Roaring Twenties."


Rip
.