Hello,

I am new here. This looks like a great forum to discuss big bore guns. I am and looking for some advise on reloading the 505 Gibbs. First a source of loading data for 600 grain bullet. Preferable in a published, main stream book, as opposed to web info.

And the big show stopper question:

Where can I find a reasonable price set of reloading dies. Something 1/2 the cost of RCBS X series at $450 bucks.

Welcome to the "AR" forums fourbore. I had to resort to getting some help from a friend of mine by using his loading software to develope some data for the .505 Gibbs. Various bullet makers offer some data but limited to their product only such as the Barnes Reloading Manual and A- Squares Any Shot You Want. Again both of these offer some information but only to a 525 grain bullet of their design. What rifle are you looking to load for? I use CH4D dies for the .505 Gibbs. Rodney.

I have a new CZ550 safari classic. It has been returned to Kansas City with problems. Could be long thread. I already said a lot on another forum and I dont want to say anymore until I get that problem sorted.

One way or another I am determined to do some shooting in 505 Gibbs.

CH4D can you explain?

I have the Barnes No4 manual. Like you say it covers the 525gr.

I found it:
http://www.ch4d.com/

505 Gibbs at $182, sounds better than RCBS at $450

Just checked here on-line with Midway and they advertise coming soon RCBS Safari 3 die set .505Gibbs item # 632984 at $179.99 My CH4D dies were acquired in a trade. I'm looking here for some other sources. Rodney.

I have the RCBS Safari Dies for the 500 Jeffery on "remind me" at Midway. Hopefully they'll come in soon.

Regards,

Chuck

I found the above suggestion at Midway "coming soon" for RCBS is $179 for the 505Gibbs. A trusted name for sure, why the big price drop I wonder?

The dies are described as roll crimp dies. Exactly how does that work? The dies don't spin. Right? Roll crimp? Can I use this like any other dies and just press down to crimp the bullet in place?

Man, what a great site!

My RCBS 505 Gibbs Dies work just like a .38 special to "roll" the brass into a crimping groove on the bullet. You do realize they are probably 1" dies not 7/8 and you need a press that will accept that diameter with a adapter.-Rob

I bought a couple of extra turrets for my Lee Classic Turret Press, I'm going to try and get the local gun/machine shop to tap them for the larger dies. I believe there's enough room, and the Lee Classic Turret has plenty of stroke.

We'll see,

Chuck

Dies - CH4D and they are 1" X 14 TPI dies.

I know of no source of "mainstream" reloading data. I could share some old load though.

Hi Fourbore, Unfortunately you won't find any published data for 600gn bullets. I looked long and hard, but in the end I had to rely on the generosity of people on this site who shared their loads. I use CH4D dies, just a 2 die set, and I had to get an adapter made for my Redding Big Boss press so it would accept the 1" diameter dies. Later on I also got a CH4D large bushing neck sizer (which is a 7/8" die), so I could get better control the neck tension. A lot of smaller presses don't have enough length, and those big cases can take a bit of force to resize, so you need a stong press with plenty of leverage. I use Woodleigh PPSN 600gn bullets, Bertram cases, FED 215 primer. I will give you some starting loads if you send me a PM

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
I know of no source of "mainstream" reloading data. I could share some old load though.

Careful fellas, its hard to imaginge, but scotts normal reloading powder is a custom homebrew of 80% old BS, 10% paxil, 15% cheap scotch, powder liberally over other peoples work

Have you looked on www.reloadersnest.com?

Looks like most of the info is from 338user!!

I use a RCBS Ammomaster 2 for reloading my 505 Gibbs. You do need to buy a 1 1/2" 12 to 1" 14 bushing to use this press. The RCBS Rockchucker Supreme will also work with a bushing change but is a little cramped. Jameson cases are available from Grafs and Midway. Published load data is hard to find and is limited to the latest Barnes and Norma manuals. There is some additional loads at loaddata.com I use 60g 5744 with 600 Grain RNGC Fed 215 primer for a reduced practice load. Mt Baldy Bullets and JLW produce cast bullets.
Hope this helps.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
I know of no source of "mainstream" reloading data. I could share some old load though.

Careful fellas, its hard to imaginge, but scotts normal reloading powder is a custom homebrew of 80% old BS, 10% paxil, 15% cheap scotch, powder liberally over other peoples work

+1

Fourbore:

The following data was given to me by Geoff MacDonald of Woodleigh for the 600 grain PP & FMJ. I have not used this recipe as I sold my .505 but you could contact him to verify:

110 grains IMR 4320 MV=2220 ME=6570
He also suggested IMR 4350 with a slightly higer charge weight.

In the "Rhino" issue (Number 1 of 2007) in the "African Hunter" magazine our recently exiled AR member "500 grains" AKA Dan McCarthy, wrote an excellent article on the .505 and 600 grain bullets. The following is from his article:

525 Grain FMJ H 4831 135 grains MV=2400
600 Grain FMJ H 4831 140 grains MV=2250
600 Grain FMJ IMR 4350 136 grains MV=2250
600 Grain FMJ IMR 4350 140 grains MV=2500

He used the H4831 140 grain load in his rifle.

Hope this helps. You might want to send Geoff an email to see if he has any newer data for these bullets.

RCG

I don't like the idea of using less than 120gn of powder in the 505 Gibbs. 116gn is 80% capacity (I consider 100% to be filled to the base of the seated 600gn Woodleigh bullet with no powder compression, and this takes 145gn of AR2213SC (H4831SC equiv)). I have loaded 116gn of AR2209 (equiv to H4350), but at that light charge the velocity is very erratic and I had a few "error" indications on my chronograph, (which never normally occurs unless I have a black powder shooter nearby), and I put those occurrences down to some unburned powder particles going through the chronograph. The powder I started with is AR2213SC. I started at 120gn, but that was quite mild, and 136gn gave me 2182 fps for a 5 shot average with a SD of 19 fps. For the recommended max velocity of the 600gn Woodleigh PPSN (which is 2200 fps), 137.5gn of AR2213SC is about right in my rifle. (Bertram cases Fed 215 primers). If Geoff used 110gn of H4320 he may have had some filler in there as well, you had better check before you try light loads as they can be just as dangerous as overloads due to erratic ignition problems. Although I have used up to 144gn of AR2213SC and 136gn of AR2209, both giving around 2380 fps in my rifle, you need to approach heavy loads like that with a lot of caution. Loads of around 124gn of AR2209 for around 2200fps, and around 132gn of AR2213SC for around 2150 fps would be a better place to start. In the end I have settled on a 130gn load of AR2209 behind the 600gn Woodleigh PPSN for around 2280 fps average over 10 shots, with an SD of 22 fps and an extreme spread of 71 fps. Even though it is slightly above the max recommended velocity for that bullet, I settled on that load because lighter charges gave too much velocity variation for my liking. It will be at or below its rated velocity of 2200fps after 30 yards, and it should have enough punch for anything. No fillers, no messing around, and it kicks a bit less than 139gn of AR2213SC which is what is needed for the same velocity using the slower powder. Since I have settled on that powder and load I have used many bottles of the stuff, the 505 Gibbs is quite a powder hungry cartridge.

quote:

In the "Rhino" issue (Number 1 of 2007) in the "African Hunter" magazine our recently exiled AR member "500 grains" AKA Dan McCarthy, wrote an excellent article on the .505 and 600 grain bullets. The following is from his article:

Does anyone know how I can get my hands on a back issue of that article, I would be very interested to read it.

I was told that RCBS was recommending on a 505 the best thing to do is send in some fired cases and they will cut the dies to fit your chamber. Now I see these dies for a lot less $. I assume RCBS has come up with "standard" 505 dimensions they must be cutting these dies for. How would one go about making sure the 505 being built would match the dies? Can you send the dies to whomever is cutting the chamber and do it that way?

338User:

I don't want to speak for Dan, but he is a poster on www.nitroexpress.com under his old name here. Perhaps you can log on there and contact him through that site. He might have a scanned copy of the article to send to you.

I am sorry that I don't have the capability to scan and paste.

Otherwise, perhaps you can contact "African Hunter" magazine directly and see if they can send you the article.

Good luck.

RCG

quote:

Originally posted by 465dbk:
I was told that RCBS was recommending on a 505 the best thing to do is send in some fired cases and they will cut the dies to fit your chamber. Now I see these dies for a lot less $. I assume RCBS has come up with "standard" 505 dimensions they must be cutting these dies for. How would one go about making sure the 505 being built would match the dies? Can you send the dies to whomever is cutting the chamber and do it that way?

I have first hand experience with three 505s and all have different chamber dimensions. One is the "one of a kind" Champlin 505 snd wouldn't chamber ammo from a well known, well respected ammo loader. Mine has a difference that required some tweaking to use my CH4D dies but the shoulder is still so large that it dents every time I resize cases (any brand).

So there is some higher than normal variation in 505 chamber reamers. I would go the above route. Buy a box of factory 505, shoot some in your gun and send them to one of the companies that will cut dies to your chamber.

tiggertate,

Funny you mention confusion around chamber sizes. I just purchases a new CZ550 safari classic in 505 and was unable to chamber either ASquare factory ammo or some old custom loads from unknown source formed from Bell Labs brass.

I sent rifle back to Kansas City and was told by that shop they had problems with A square. But then they have no factory loads by anybody and just load their own to test fire. No factory loads ever. Dont seem to use go/nogo gauges or those are in house too? Dont know.

I had to buy some $240 box of 10 Norma loads and ship some of those out. I measured all three and dont see dimes worth difference. A square is maybe couple thou longer to the shoulder. Might be enough. Waiting and waiting....

So, I just wait, call once a week. No satisfaction yet.

For reloads, I am now leaning toward buying a neck sizer die or calling RCBS and seeing if I can get the new roll crimp set with the neck sizer substitute. Well that all depends if I need a die just to (pull bullets and) resize all the unfired A square ammo. I have to wait and see how the gun comes back.

Hi Fourbore, I had a simliar experience with some unprimed cases I bought (I prefer not to mention the name). I loaded them up without checking the fit first, found they wouldn't chamber, and had to pull them all apart. Once I FL resized them they were OK. It seems the shoulder was a fraction too long. When I bought my CH dies I was asked which shell holder I wanted. This was puzzling. However it turns out that there are a couple of 505 Gibbs cartridges out there which have slightly different dimensions. I generally buy Bertram cases, they are good quality, don't need any sizing from new, and here in Oz they are $2.50 cheaper (per case) than the next alternative.

Well, best of luck to you which ever way it works out. It isn't just A-Square, btw. The ammo that wouldn't load in the Champlin gun was Superior. The owner suspects it is the chamber and for $25,000.00, Champlin was more than willing to take another look at the rifle (not mine). I haven't heard their answer from the owner yet. Back when I made my 505 I remember having discussions with both Dave Kiff about CH4D dies and the owner of CH4D (George?) about the reamer. IIRC, no love lost between those two about whose product was correct. I suppose a lot of die makers and reamer grinders take heat for their product when documented specs are scarce, or even conflict within reputable sources. Until Norma came out with ammo I doubt there was going to be any resolution, either. Now that Norma produces ammo, there must be a CIP standard chamber or Norma would be way out on a limb.