Looking for 500 AR brass; quality co will run a batch if there is enough demand. I will buy 200- anyone else interested so we can get a batch going?

Perhaps. I may know in a couple of weeks.
I've got to check and see what I've got and how many reloadings I get from one round. I may need 50-100 more.

My 500 AccRel Nyati is still at McGowen, but recent communication means that it may be out soon.

What is the price on them?

quote:

Originally posted by lee440:
What is the price on them?

The price at Quality is $70 for 20, but there is a 5% NRA discount if mentioned at the beginning of the order. That would make a bag of 20: $66.50, or about $3.32 a piece.

Not a bad price for about the most practical .510 calibre design out there.

For unheadstamped brass. Midsouth has 450 Dakota brass CHEAP

is it easier to open up 450 dakota brass, or to use basic 416 rigby?

On 450 Dakota, no headstamp, at Midsouth Shooters
I couldn't find it listed under rifle brass.

The closest thing was 450 Rigby brass, Norma, at $116 for 25, which is a bit too pricey.

Is it possible to form 500 AR from 450 Dakota? The base dia for the dakota is .582, for the 500 AR .589. What am i missing?

I guess that the Dakota brass would show a little more expansion just above the casehead. But then the number of full length resizings would probably be limited.

But where is this "cheap brass"?
Haven't found it.
It would need to be significantly below 500AccR brass to make it worthwhile, since a lot more than $1.00 of time goes into reforming brass. And limited resizings makes that work even less enviable.

I'm for getting another lot of Quality done up, 500AccRel. If it helps, put me down for 100 cases.

dakota brass is/can be formed from rigby.

http://www.midsouthshooterssup...em.asp?sku=002858693

20$ per 50pieces

Best?
Get on the wish list for some blank basic cylindrical .338 Lapua Magnum at:

http://www.captechintl.com/

Scratch your own headstamp on the blank heads.

Some sources do give the 450 Dakota rim and head diameters as both being .582".
Rigby case head is .589" max and rim is about .590" max.
.338 Lapua basic started off as .416 Rigby, but actual diameters as eventually produced got fine tuned a little smaller,
and production brass is always smaller than the max spec for the brass, hopefully no more than .004" smaller.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
dakota brass is/can be formed from rigby.

http://www.midsouthshooterssup...em.asp?sku=002858693

20$ per 50pieces

I wonder if a 450 rigby (.589" casehead) would fit in a 450 Dakota chamber (.582")?

And does anyone have experience firing .582" brass in a .589" chamber in terms of accuracy and caselife?

one might mic a rigby case these days..

just miked 3 each of unfired Hornady 416 Rigby and 338 lapua brass; and 3 fired, neck sized cases Jamison 416 brass.
Results:
Hornady virgin 416 Rigby: rim dia 0.582, 0.583, 0.583 AVG 0.5827
Base dia 0.581, 0.581, 0.582
AV 581.3

Hornady virgin 338 lapua brass:

rim dia 0.582, .583, .583 AV 0.5827
base dia (just above groove) 0.581, 0.581,0.581
AV 0.581

Jamison once fired, neck sized 416 Rigby brass:
Rim dia: .583, 0.583, 0.583
Base dia (above groove) 0.586, 0.586, 0.586

Given these dimensions, can 450 dakota brass be used for 500 AR? Jeffe?

So we see the .416 Rigby and .338 Lapua as-manufactured are a lot smaller than their max spec.
I'll measure some too, tomorrow, and will add the 450 Dakota brass ...
Yes, unfired/new from factory would be best.
Dakota has had various makers of their brass, Norma in the past, and Jamison might have made some of the various cartridge cases.
They were nextdoor neighbors once upon a time,
but Dakota was hard to work with back in the Charlie Kokesh days when I was getting my brass.

Jeffe,

So what does it take to make 500AR brass from 450 Dakota. Just bought 100 pieces from Midsouth.

Came to just over $51 with shipping.

x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x


When you re looking for it on their site just use the search words 450 Dakota. It is in their closeout section and not listed with the other brass.

quote:

Originally posted by emron:
just miked 3 each of unfired Hornady 416 Rigby and 338 lapua brass; and 3 fired, neck sized cases Jamison 416 brass.
Results:
Hornady virgin 416 Rigby: rim dia 0.582, 0.583, 0.583 AVG 0.5827
Base dia 0.581, 0.581, 0.582
AV 581.3

Hornady virgin 338 lapua brass:

rim dia 0.582, .583, .583 AV 0.5827
base dia (just above groove) 0.581, 0.581,0.581
AV 0.581

Jamison once fired, neck sized 416 Rigby brass:
Rim dia: .583, 0.583, 0.583
Base dia (above groove) 0.586, 0.586, 0.586

Given these dimensions, can 450 dakota brass be used for 500 AR? Jeffe?

OK. I just ordered 100 cases, too. As a back-up. My bill came to $52.66 including shipping.

I miked my Quality cases of 500 AccRel:

The rims were .587" and the case head just at the groove were .5825". So the Dakota should work fine.

A question:
If someone fire forms a 450 Dakota case in a 500AccRel chamber, does one need to aneal the neck?
Can one simply cut off the excess brass beyond the fire-formed neck-throat juncture, trim, deburr, and check final neck thickness for spec?

Yes, it's amateur night, and advice on efficient method with minimal equipment would be appreciated.

Anneal before necking up, and after necking down when wildcatting,
according to Ross Seyfried's old saw.

Best to start with cylindrical basic new, neck it down, anneal it, then fire-form it.
Anneal after 3 to 5 firings thereafter.

New .338 Lapua Magnum brass made by Lapua is beautifully annealed from the factory.
You can fire form that and hopefully not have too many neck splits.
Works great in going to .500 caliber that way.
Going to .510 caliber is bound to cause the rare neck split more often.
Of course, necking down the new basic cylindrical is the best way to go.




My 450 Dakota brass, new/unfired, is a very uniform .578" at the head and .580" at the rim.
That is very good brass, very much in spec, no more than .004" smaller than max spec which is .582" for both, it seems.

It is indeed smaller than .416 Rigby and .338 Lapua Magnum basic brass.
I would not use it in either my 500 Bateleur (.510/.416 Rigby 2.700"), or my .500/.338LM 2.657" ("49-10" 12.7x68).

Either .416 Rigby or .338 Lapua basic cylindrical is the easiest way to go.
Less likely to have case body bulge above the solid head.
450 Dakota is just different enough to possibly make a difference.

I have plenty of 450 Dakota brass. I had plenty of it before I bought Jorge's brass and dies after Greg "Criminal" Heinie stiffed him on the custom rifle deal.

I do not have enough Captech .338 Lapua Magnum blank basic cylindrical brass.
But I am on the wish list there for some more of it.

.338 Lapua Magnum specs are .002" smaller than .416 Rigby specs for both head and rim diameters.
In the real world, as produced, they are the same in rim and head.
More slop allowed for the .416 Rigby DGR than for the .338 Lapua Magnum precision sniper rifle:

(Lapua Manual)


(Norma Manual)



Here is a great format for a 500 AR 2.65", like for my 500 Bateleur 2.7", FN Mauser and Wiebe bottom metal,
Gentry stainless safety/bolt shroud, in a B&C Mauser Medalist stock. Timney trigger is lying in the parts bin with the Vais brake, at Hilltop Gun Shop:

remove the expander, set shoulder to barely fit rifle, and fireform.. and trim

the ONLY times i've split a case going from 338 lapua

this is an easy one, gents... i've had zero fire forming issues on the necks...

So you recommend a trimmer for .2" case shortening?

To trim 0.2" you can use a hacksaw or a cut-off wheel, and a padded vise.

Then use the case trimmer to get the final few thou off, to square and uniform the case mouth and COL of the re-sized brass.

Every cartridge needs a case trimmer for routine handloading.

450 Dakota specs from Dr. Ken Howell's reproduction of a "Dakota Arms drawing" plus the drawing of the Clymer reamer that Dakota used:




Looks like Dave Manson got his start at Clymer?
A reamer base minimum diameter of 0.001" greater than the brass maximum base diameter is pretty routine.
And production brass base diameter of up to .004" smaller than the brass maximum base diameter is pretty routine too.

Reamer neck diameter minimum of 0.004" greater than cartridge neck maximum diameter is also routine.

get a mini chop saw from harbor freight - make an L shaped tailstock out of wood, plastic, or metal... have a screw sticking out of the vertical to adjust cutting "depth" (length), and afix to the base... 2 small screws into the horizontal part of the L ..

takes longer to describe than to make...

use the "built in" vise, cut one side, rotate 180, cut the other... then fine tune to length...

this is the EASIEST trimmer, ever ...

make certain if you have it set for length... if you've deprimed, then hit the "tailstock" screw with the primer out, it could be too short...

measure thrice, cut once

The Dakota brass arrived and I am impressed. The casehead measures .581-.5815" so it should work for Rigby and Nyati cases. The rim was only .576 but it seems to work.

However, that brings up other questions.

The shoulder on the Dakota is about .22" longer than the 500 AccRel. That means that about .22" of case body must be sized 0.04" smaller, while about the same amount of neck must be expanded .05".

Fireforming is out because the longer case body will not chamber. the Dakota brass will need to be resized. So:

1. Can I expect to resize the cases with a regular resizing die and press, using regular lubes?

2. Will annealing be necessary?

fireformed works just fine if you leave the expander out of the die, set the dies to push the shoulder to just barely close the bolt, and bang-- trim.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
get a mini chop saw from harbor freight - make an L shaped tailstock out of wood, plastic, or metal... have a screw sticking out of the vertical to adjust cutting "depth" (length), and afix to the base... 2 small screws into the horizontal part of the L ..

takes longer to describe than to make...

use the "built in" vise, cut one side, rotate 180, cut the other... then fine tune to length...

this is the EASIEST trimmer, ever ...

make certain if you have it set for length... if you've deprimed, then hit the "tailstock" screw with the primer out, it could be too short...

measure thrice, cut once

yes, it is probably easier to make than describe.

what do you mean by "tailstock"?

Sumbuddy must be desperate if they are using cheap 450 Dakota brass to make 500 AR brass.
I have 400 pieces of 450 Dakota brass (my initial purchase plus what I got from Jorge when Greg Heinie stiffed him)
but I would never consider using 450 Dakota brass to make 500 Bateleur brass which is similar to 500 AR, just .050" longer.
Why settle for rebating of the rim and bulging of the case head?

Tail stock. Take your left hand. "Make a gun" pointing right. This points at the left side of the Mini chop saw. The index finger take a tap and screw down. The thumb a tap and screw across. Down goes into the chop saw. Across sets Max length from chop saw. Mine is in storage promo would just take a pic.

"Tailstock" like the usually right hand end of a lathe

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
500 Bateleur brass which is similar to 500 AR, just .050" longer.

Thanks Ron. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. I appreciate your compliments. You might take your own advice re AccRel discussion on a batturd thread. Oh sorry, got that backwards. Again. Seems to be a habit

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
500 Bateleur brass which is similar to 500 AR, just .050" longer.

Thanks Ron. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. I appreciate your compliments. You might take your own advice re AccRel discussion on a batturd thread. Oh sorry, got that backwards. Again. Seems to be a habit

Welcome. There are actually many more differences between the 500 Bateleur and 500 AR case designs,
and of course the 500 Bateleur is superior,
but I was just simplifying for expediency.
Mine is simply a shortened 500 Mbogo-3", shortened to 2.7" case, to fit in a standard Mauser.
The 500 Mbogo came before the 500 AR.
The 500 Bateleur uses .416 Rigby or .338 Lapua Magnum basic cylindrical brass.
NEVER 450 Dakota, which is too small in diameter for full strength 500 Bateleur brass.
Bad poop has no excuse. My pleasure to set it straight.
Chuck Norris told me so.

"01
Chuck Norris' tears cure cancer. Too bad he has never cried.
02
Chuck Norris counted to infinity - twice.
03
Chuck Norris does not hunt because the word hunting infers the probability of failure. Chuck Norris goes killing.
04
If you can see Chuck Norris, he can see you. If you can't see Chuck Norris you may be only seconds away from death.
05
Chuck Norris sold his soul to the devil for his rugged good looks and unparalleled martial arts ability. Shortly after the transaction was finalized, Chuck roundhouse kicked the devil in the face and took his soul back. The devil, who appreciates irony, couldn't stay mad and admitted he should have seen it coming. They now play poker every second Wednesday of the month.
06
When the Boogeyman goes to sleep every night he checks his closet for Chuck Norris.
07
Chuck Norris built a time machine and went back in time to stop the JFK assassination. As Oswald shot, Chuck Norris met all three bullets with his beard, deflecting them. JFK's head exploded out of sheer amazement.
08
Chuck Norris has already been to Mars; that's why there are no signs of life there.
09
They once made a Chuck Norris toilet paper, but it wouldn't take sh*t from anybody.
10
A blind man once stepped on Chuck Norris' shoe. Chuck replied, "Don't you know who I am? I'm Chuck Norris!" The mere mention of his name cured this man blindness. Sadly the first, last, and only thing this man ever saw, was a fatal roundhouse delivered by Chuck Norris."

Ronnie
Dave handed me a formed 500 mbogo while you where playing with you JAB round. But, of course, that's neither here nor there, as Dave "invented" the 3" rigby based case PERIOD. Of course the AccRel isn't close to 3" long as that wouldn't fit in a standard length action. Again, thank you for the compliments, and I am certain Dave thanks you as well

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Ronnie
Dave handed me a formed 500 mbogo while you where playing with you JAB round. But, of course, that's neither here nor there, as Dave "invented" the 3" rigby based case PERIOD. Of course the AccRel isn't close to 3" long as that wouldn't fit in a standard length action. Again, thank you for the compliments, and I am certain Dave thanks you as well

Not quite, Jeffie:

The 3.000" Rigby case is a figment of my imagination.
The longest you are going to get in .416 Rigby Basic cylindrical brass,
and even in Quality Cartridge brass with proper headstamp,
is 2.945".
I have yet to grow one to 3.000" by repeated firing in my "500 Mbogo 3-Inch."

Designer Dave Estergaard's 470 Mbogo reamer produced by JGS on 11/03/1997, shows the reamer minimum spec from bolt face to end of chamber neck to be 2.9450".

For safety and function, to allow room for case length stretch and spring-back,
it is customary for brass maximum spec for this dimension to be about 0.0150" less than the corresponding reamer minimum dimension.
We are talking about brass case length now.

470 Mbogo maximum brass length should be therefore: 2.930". Trim-to length is then 2.920".
You may find it drawn up with maximum brass length of 2.945"
on page 242 of Fred Zeglin's book, Wildcat Cartridges, but that does not make it right.

Of course Dave was necking up the .416 Rigby before any of us, though the 450 Rigby came along in 1994, before the 470 Mbogo.

More accurately, Dave was necking down .416 Rigby basic cylindrical brass before any of us did.
And of course the .510-caliber neck-down was just a step along the way to the .475-caliber 470 Mbogo.
I talked to Dave Estergaard about this in getting his leave to pay him homage with the 500 Mbogo.

The 500 Mbogo reamer minimum chamber length (Dave Manson reamer for R. Berry on 03/2007) is 3.0090".
That would translate into a maximum brass length of 2.994" which means trim-to-length must be .010" less than that.
"500 Mbogo 3-Inch" trim-to length is 2.984", for safety purposes in a chamber minimum length of 3.009".

Be safe.
Be of best function.
I'd have to be mighty desperate to use 450 Dakota brass in a 500 AR.
That is mighty sloppy, OK for plinking, but it will not help case life.
Just trying to help here.

The similar (actually many differences), but I feel, better designed 500 Bateleur 2.7":
The reamer is 2.7120" minimum (Dave Manson for Ron Berry on 10/2012).
The 500 Bateleur Maximum brass length should be 2.697" and trim-to is 2.687".

Throat dimensions: Parallel-sided free-bore length/diameter/leade angle (degrees-minutes-seconds)

470 Mbogo: 0.4000"/0.4760"/1-30-0
500 Mbogo: 0.5000"/0.5110"/1-30-0
500 Bateleur: 0.2550"/0.5110"/1-30-0


Actually March 10, 1940 birth date,
but Nazi Germany did not find out about it until May 6, 1945.

Hey, the 500 Bateleur is a good round but it really can't be compared to the 500 AccRel Nyati. A standard length magazine is limited to 3.4". That means that a 2.65" case is limited to 0.75" nose projection. So 2.65" is alrady at the edge, it is a reasonable length but it doesn't leave much room for a longer case. A 2.70" case would be limited to 0.7" nose projection on bullets.

Bottom line is that a cartridge longer than the 500AccRel needs to be built on a longer action with a magazine of 3.6" or more. And as soon as one chooses a magazine of that length, then a cartridge could reasonably be designed for 2.8". For example, the 570 grain Barnes TSX has a .75" nose projection.

So I see the optimum cartridge lengths as 2.60-2.65" with a 3.4" magazine, and 2.8-2.85" with a 3.6" magazine.

In any case, I need to spend some time with my 500 AccRel Nyati. The rifle just arrived with its new barrel.

Now I need to re-bed it in the Hogue stock and a Boyd's stock, and do some load development. I may epoxy a washer to the front of the magazine box. (I t might not look as nice as Ron's, but it will be fast and easy.) Quality brass for final hunting loads, but the Dakota brass can be used for parallel load development and plinking.

Hopefully I'll get out to the range within the next month. (I'm very busy this month.) As mentioned in previous threads, I will be looking for accurate loads in the 6500-7000 ftlb range. Bullets of choice are GSC 450 gn HV, CEB 350+10gn tip, and Barnes 570 gn.

OK. Whatever. I just would never use 450 Dakota brass for this, even though I have 400 pieces of it and only one rifle of 450 Dakota chambering,
and two rifles of 500 Bateleur chambering,
getting hungry for feeding,
one from a 3.8" WBY dropbox and one from a 3.5" Wiebe M98 box (still at the spa getting plastic surgery):



If I got stuck with a 500 Bateleur in a Ruger Hawkeye with 3.4" box,
I would just trim the brass an extra 0.037" shorter than trim-to length. Presto-change-o, 2.65" brass,
and ownership of a most beautiful bird.

Above COL's with full-length brass.

great to hear you have the new barrel!!

thanks, Tanz.. will be interesting to see if there is any material diff...

on an unrelated note:
one wishes there was a way to identify intoxicated postings....

Please! No begging by anyone to own a 500 Bateleur besides me.

Captech brass pictures moved to "PSA" thread as suggested by jeffeosso on page 2 of this thread.
Edit at 2055 hrs CST 20130710

hey ronnie...

might deleting all you 5,000,000,000,000 batturd posts on a 500 AR thread? you know, it was kind of YOUR idea not to cross post?

yeah, i figured not, but thought i would ask...

but you are right, no one is begging anyone for their rounds.. but i share everything i have, and all the data... and reamers and gauges.. leaving myself completely open for someone to say " no way, it doesn't perform nearly that well.. what crap this is"...

alas, other than the amazingly boring 257 jls, they have all been fun

alas, dave did drop one of his 500 mbogo dummies in my hand, dec 2004 .. sorry buddy...

Jeffie,
I am saying Dave might have done the .510/.416 Rigby Long back in 1997, way before 2004.
Buhmiller did it in the 1950's.
Van Horn did the short one in the 1970's or 1980's.


But none of them have been a "3-inch." That one still does not exist. It will exist when I have stretched out some brass by repeated firing in the 500 Mbogo.

This has been fun.
Now back to the Bateleur Roost ... wait for it ...

hey doc, you know there is help for self medicating, right?

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
hey doc, you know there is help for self medicating, right?

Slander now. Ad hominem when you have nothing else.