Would some one be able to estimate the pressure, and speeds if possible generated for the 400 gr woodleigh bullet in the .404 J Norma Brass for;

71 gr of Varget
73 gr of Varget
76 gr of Varget
80 gr of Varget
83 gr of Varget
85 Gr of Varget

I am trying to work out what will be a good load in my 1909 Mauser .404 J without pushing the envelope of the 1909 action. and get 2300 fps or do I just need to stock with a load that will do original ballistics of 2150 fps.....................I do not want casue any lug set back in this gun and will settle for super mild loads if need be to avoid this ever happening.

Did have it in the Reloading section but the usual .404 sluts hang out mainly here

Regards PC.

btt

I'm interested in this too. What are 400 grain/2400fps pressures with widely used powders?

quote:

Originally posted by fla3006:
I'm interested in this too. What are 400 grain/2400fps pressures with widely used powders?

We Just need the regular .404 J users to post up...............those with modern actioned guns and those with the mauser standard 98 types.

PC,
I don't have the A-Square manual with me right now. Check their pressures.

I suppose you want an internal ballistic program run? I don't have the capability at hand at the moment.

Varget is an excellent choice.


My SWAG: 72.0 grains of Varget with a 400 grain Woodleigh would give you 2150 fps and 40,000 PSI. That is where you want to be with your Mauser showpiece.

Of course, in my Winchester M70, IIRC, I use :

85 grains of Varget to get 2525 fps with the North Fork 380 grainer (Swag 50K to 55K psi)

87.6 grains of Varget to get +2700 fps with the 340 grain North Fork (Swag 55K to 60K psi)

83 grains of Varget to get 2400 fps with the 400 grain Woodleigh Weldcore (Swag 50K psi)

A search would verify my numbers and the fact that no one ever came to any better conclusions on my loads: no real pressure data in my rifle.

The CZ 550 in .404 Jeffery uses H4831SC to get 2200 fps with 400 grain Woodleighs Weldcores. My iron sights are set for that load, and it has its utility, that may have been 88 grains, records not here, but other lots of powder in other guns get more velocity and pressures quite reasonable, e.g., Mike brady of North Fork.

Ah, so, I will soon be pushing 320 grain GSC's at faster speeds yet in a .423 Lapua on a Dakota 76 African action ... just for kicks. Some here think my .404 Jeffery loads are strange, so I am doing the .423 Lapua to mystify even further.

Thanks RIP the other powder I think might be a goer is AR2209 or IMR 4350 in Yank talk.

At the of the day 2250 fps will have to much pressure for the 1909 actions by the sounds of it 2250 fps is where I want to be

What are suggested pressure limits for mauser 98 .404 rifles...............or what what psi of the orginal loadings.

Get a pressure estimate on the H4831 of Aussie make. That would be the highest velocity with the lowest pressure and a full case. Recoil differences would be negligible. H4831 will be the lowest pressure for 2250 fps. That should be no worries for the velocity you want in your Mauser.

Some think an opened up Mauser is good for 60,000 psi. Not me. Not Alf.

I'll look into AccuLoad later if I can get it reloaded, since a crash caused me to lose that program.

RIP can you say then what is an opened up M98 1909 good for in PSI 40,000 45,000 48,000.

I think it is defintely below the 49.5K mark I would think.

Thanks for your help with this matter.

I agree that 60k etc. is stupid.........................buy a m70 or cz action and make a .404 from that if you want 60k

Hey PC,

I think if you shoot for 45,000 - 48,000 psi your rifle will last for three lifetimes. When you find your favorite load ADI might be willing to pressure test it for you.
The ballistics programs are based on math equations that hold up fairly well in cartridges of middle capacity, but break down for the little fellows and the big bores.

lawndart

LD thank you for that,

I reckon 45k will get me the 2250 fps I want and maybe 73 gr of AR2208 (Varget) will get me there.

quote:

RIP: Some think an opened up Mauser is good for 60,000 psi. Not me. Not Alf.

All depends on the Mauser. A DWM (09 Arg, 08 Brazil)? No.
An Interarms Mark X (375 Whitworth), or maybe a VZ24? All day long.

.

Alf Your brilliant !!

Thats just a great Graph for any mauser .404 J shooter.

Thankyou.

.

Alf,

thats is great stuff...........from ylur graphs to my eye AR2208 (Varget) looks to be the best powder I think.

quote:

Originally posted by PC:
Alf,

thats is great stuff...........from ylur graphs to my eye AR2208 (Varget) looks to be the best powder I think.

PC,
Be cautious about interchanging CUP for PSI.

45,000 CUP may be 55,000 PSI.

I don't know what the conversion factor is.

quote:

Originally posted by fla3006:

quote:

RIP: Some think an opened up Mauser is good for 60,000 psi. Not me. Not Alf.

All depends on the Mauser. A DWM (09 Arg, 08 Brazil)? No.
An Interarms Mark X (375 Whitworth), or maybe a VZ24? All day long.

Let us hope.

Thanks for those graphs Alf, but how do we convert the CUP to PSI?

Also, could you provide a comparison graph using 10" twist McGowen Micro-Land-Wonder-Rifling (MLWR) versus 14" twist Lothar Walther standard rifling? Please???

RIP & ALF -

What would be a good "proof load" for the .404 Jeffery. My gunsmith is putting the finishing touches on my custom Model 70 with a Kreiger barrel and wants to fire a proof load to check things out. I currently have Varget and Reloder 15 powders that I plan on using to work up loads. Bullets I currently have and plan on using are 350 & 400 grain Woodleigh soft points.

TreeFarmer

TreeFarmer,
I think your gunsmith just needs to fire a starting load in your gun first, one that will blow out enough to fully conform to the new chamber and make sure he didn't create a bulged, ringed, or out-of-round chamber with sloppy technique/chatter/bad reamer, etc.

A proof load is generally one that is 25% over pressure max by the SAAMI or CIP standards.

You can work up to proof loads yourself after taking delivery of the custom firearm.

Well, we have been over this before, and I keep forgetting the conversion factor for CUP to PSI. A-Square manual to the rescue:
SEEMS TO MATCH ALF'S DATA VERY WELL

.404 Jeffery:
Maximum Average
CUP = 46,444
PSI = 52,975
or PSI = 1.1406 x CUP
Maximum Individual
CUP = 53,411
PSI = 60,929
or PSI = 1.1408 x CUP

For the .404 Jeffery: PSI = 1.1407(CUP)
(a good approximation)

CCI 250 primer
A-Square brass
A-Square 400 grain Dead Tough soft of .423 caliber
barrel twist 1 turn in 16.54" of .423" groove
barrel length 26"

RL-15 72.0 grains (equivalent to 73.0 grains Varget by my testing):
velocity = 2210 fps
pressure = 41,000 PSI average

H-4350 86.0 grains
velocity = 2221 fps
pressure = 45,600 PSI average

That is what it says.
I think that is as good as it gets.
Those loads would be perfect for function testing a newly made .404 Jeffery to make sure the chamber is good. Then you could move on to the "Blue Pill" loads at your own risk.

In a Mauser standard 98 opened up, I would be very happy with either of those loads.

Other loads to play with:

H-4350 83.0 grains: 2145 fps, 38,700 PSI ave.
RL-15 76.0 grains: 2266 fps, 43,600 PSI ave.
RL-15 80.0 grains: 2379 fps, 49,800 PSI ave.

I SWAG that adding 1 grain to the RL-15 charge will give the equivalent Varget load.

PC,
Maybe you could go up to 77 grains of Varget or even 78 grains and get very close to 2250 fps at 45 K psi in a 24" barreled rifle: Only you and your rifle can tell, with chronograph assistance.

I'd say 2250 fps would be a good place to quit with the 400 grain bullet and Varget, whatever charge it takes. Woodleigh Weldcore, Norma brass and F215 primer: works for me.

As lawndart said, those internal ballistic programs can be phoney baloney for the big bores and the tiny bores. I recall running the numbers before, and they were strange.

I think the actual pressure data from A-Square is as good as it gets, and close enough, in this case.

RIP,

thanks for that informative post. The starting load for the .404 J in Nick Harvey's Reloading Manual (Aussie reloading/Rag writer) is 76 gr of AR2208 (Varget)for 2240 tested in a custom M98 24" barrel, I think the 75 gr or his starting load of 76gr of Varget will suffice quite nicely......................if I want more speed wit ha 400 gr woodleigh bullet I will drive it hard in my cz 550 .416 Rigby.

I have just been reading about Selby's .416 Rigby on an M98 in the gun smithing forum!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! he must have had to use tame loads to avoid damage there, if people say the .375 H&H and .404 is stretching the friendship then the .416 Rigby sure as hell must be.

quote:

Originally posted by PC:
RIP,

thanks for that informative post. The starting load for the .404 J in Nick Harvey's Reloading Manual (Aussie reloading/Rag writer) is 76 gr of AR2208 (Varget)for 2240 tested in a custom M98 24" barrel, I think the 75 gr or his starting load of 76gr of Varget will suffice quite nicely......................if I want more speed wit ha 400 gr woodleigh bullet I will drive it hard in my cz 550 .416 Rigby.

I have just been reading about Selby's .416 Rigby on an M98 in the gun smithing forum!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! he must have had to use tame loads to avoid damage there, if people say the .375 H&H and .404 is stretching the friendship then the .416 Rigby sure as hell must be.

Thank you for the Nick Harvey load info. That sounds good.

Yes, the old Rigby loads that Harry Selby used were probably about 40,000 PSI.

And Rigby must have surely understood the heat treatment/hardness issues of the Mauser ... and had to have done some fancy opening to the rear and to the front as little as possible.

Just keep it under 50,000 psi and you will be fine no doubt, so 45,000 PSI should last forever, no worries.

BTW, the CZ 550 Magnum Safari Classic in .505 Gibbs is the only CZ rifle that I have seen with a pressure maximum stamped on the action left side below the wood: Pm 3800 bar

If a bar is 1 million dynes/cm^2 = 14.5 PSI, then 3800 bar = 55,100 PSI.

That is pretty hefty considering the case head is 0.640" diameter and will have a lot of thrust.

So, you are safe loading the .416 Rigby CZ to .416 Weatherby ballistics.

Also, I might build a .475/.505 Gibbs (.475 Kifaru) and get plenty of horsepower out of it on a CZ 550 Magnum. Just for kicks.

.

RIP,

I should have included the full range for Varget load by Nick Harvey..........................sorry, my mistake.

76 gr for 2240 to 85gr for 2450 (Max Load).

Fired my .585 Nyati a few times today and with no break 650 gr woodleigh @ 2400-2500 fps so I am thinking really mild .404 J loads like 2 gr of unique behind the 400 gr woodleigh for 45 fps

.

Alf,
I am in complete agreement.
I have moved on from truly functional nostalgia pieces (TFNP) to purely functional ballistic machines (PFBM) that can do more and take rougher use, but I understand and enjoy both.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
RIP:

We all used the old Rigby ammo from Rigby for our 416's untill production ceased in the 70's.
Im not sure if the ammo was loaded by Kynoch for Rigby as my original packages show Rigby labels. The cases though state Rigby but also wear the K headstamp of Kynoch indicating brass and likely loading by Kynoch for John Rigby.

I still have some ( only a few, 3 boxes) of the originals and had to pull all the bullets to make everything legal in South Africa.

The loading for the Rigby was to the same pressure spec as Kynoch loads for today namely 18 tons per square inch. I believe they used the long tons per square inch designation and that equates to roughly 40,000 psi ( it was measured with a crusher though )

So in effect the rifle was shot with low pressure ammo.

ALF,
Norma made a large batch of .416 Rigby ammunition for Kynoch in the 1960.s...

Husky

.

RIP -

Thanks for confirming my thoughts. To try out the rifle, I have loaded 10 rounds each of the 350 & 400 grain Woodleigh soft points as follows:

Norma Brass
Federal GM215M primers
72 grains Reloder 15
Action Model 70 Winchester originally a 300 Rum
Barrel Kreiger special contour 1-14" twist, 26" long

No "blue pill special" load for me. Just want a load that is higher than the maximum I ever plan on using to give a safety margin. I probably used the wrong term. I never plan on using more than 80 grains of either Reloder 15 or Varget for any load with either 350 or 400 grain bullets and will probably load to around 75 grains.

I don't think that there will be a problem with the chamber. I was in my smith's shop when he reamed it and he is very anal about the precision of his work. That is one reason for him wanting to proof the rifle with a higher than normal load. His shop is less than a mile from me and it is nice to be able to go in person to discuss ideas and review things rather than having to do it over the telephone or by e-mail.

TreeFarmer

TreeFarmer,
You and I with our Winchester M70 Classic .404's have no worries with pressure. Our shoulders will tell us when to back off the powder charge.

Ditto the CZ 550 Magnum Safari Classic. If that factory rifle chambered for .505 Gibbs is rated to 3800 bar (55,100 psi) ... then the equivalent pressure to get the same bolt thrust in a .404 Jeffery would be about 76,000 PSI.

I SWAG that the Winchester M70 Classic would also handle the same pressures as the CZ 550 Magnum. Our brass will go to hades before our rifles do.

If any engineers can correct me on this assumption please do.

The Winchester M70 is my kind of .404, but PC's also has its attraction, using those gentlemanly, deadly, mild loads. Variety is the spice of life.

Where is Scott Sweet when you need him?

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Where is Scott Sweet when you need him?

Who is he ?? was I around when he was posting ??

Alf or RIP,
What would you recommend as starting loads for the 404 with NI60 powder? I will try out the 400 grain Hawk bullet and the 350 grain Barnes round nose solid. Any help would be appreciated. By the way, Norma brass, Fed 215 primers.

quote:

Originally posted by Wink:
Alf or RIP,
What would you recommend as starting loads for the 404 with NI60 powder? I will try out the 400 grain Hawk bullet and the 350 grain Barnes round nose solid. Any help would be appreciated. By the way, Norma brass, Fed 215 primers.

Wink,
VVN 160 is a slower powder that lies between IMR 4831 (faster) and H4831SC (slower), on one burn rate chart rank order from faster to slower:

87. IMR 4831
89. N160
90. H4831

You will probably not be able to get enough N160 into the case to worry unless you use a drop tube and heavily compress.

In my .404 Jeffery rifles 88.0 grains of H4831SC with Norma Brass and F215 primer and 400 grain Woodleigh Weldcore bullet: it fills the case and gives only 2200 fps in a 24" barrel. That is probably a 40,000 PSI load. Safe in anything, and very uniform and accurate. It is my favorite low-ball load.

I would say start with 85 grains of N160 and see what your rifle gives for velocity with that.

I expect you will find it very pleasant at that charge.

I am sure Ray Atkinson would push N160 over 96 grains as he went that high with IMR 4831, which is a faster powder ... and Ray got well over 2600 fps with 400 grainers in his 27" barrels. I just don't understand how he got that much powder in the case. Must have been thinner RWS brass with greater capacity.

Start at 85 grains N160.

PC,
You remember ToddE, Axel, and Judy? All the same person or same group posting as various personas. Whoever amongst them could crunch numbers fairly well, engineer supposedly.

I apologize for bringing it up.

Thanks RIP. I'll try it out tommorrow.

RIP, just for your archives, with 90 grains of N160, pushing a 400 grain Hawk bullet through a 23 inch barrel, I get 2160 fps. Same load pushing a 350 Barnes solid yields 2230 fps.

quote:

Originally posted by Wink:
RIP, just for your archives, with 90 grains of N160, pushing a 400 grain Hawk bullet through a 23 inch barrel, I get 2160 fps. Same load pushing a 350 Barnes solid yields 2230 fps.

Thanks, Wink.
You have a little faster than the classic 2125 fps with 400 grain bullet of the original .404 Jeffery loads.

2160 fps with 400 grain bullet using 90 grains of N160 on a cold day in France?

How was the temperature? The Hodgdon Extreme line of powders, including H4831SC is very temperature insensitive. How about VVN?

Sounds like a very safe load and would be great if it is accurate. Probably is a full case and very uniform and accurate.

You really need a faster powder for lighter bullets.

Thanks again for the addition to the archives.

It was about as cold as it gets in this neck of the woods, around -3 Centigrade when I was shooting. 90 grains of N160 just about fills the case, depending on the length of your bullet. I think I could get a couple of more grains in without compressing, but I haven't tried it yet. I only shot two rounds with the 350 grains Barnes solid. First shot 2234 fps, second shot 2228 fps. Not much of a sample to extrapolate on for coming up with a standard deviation but looks promising nonetheless. If 2300 or 2400 fps were possible with this bullet in front of a faster powder it might be a decent bullet to consider. Anybody out there have an experience with this bullet in this caliber?

Wink,

Are you enjoying the rifle?

What do you think of it?

Garrett

Garrett, I am having great fun with this rifle and thank you for all the trouble you had to go through for me to buy it. I picked it up in November. My only problem now is finding a reasonably priced bullet in France to blow holes in paper with! I like to shoot a lot with a rifle before taking it to Africa (to get used to the weight, the balance, the handling, etc.) but hate to use premium bullets for training. By the way I replaced the scope mounts with Talley mounts, deciding that I like their robustness.